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Oct 25, 2017
7,298
new jersey
Literally nobody wants more of them but the structure of the Senate basically requires it. There are too many low population deep red states in comparison to the very high population deep blue states but they all get two senators regardless. Dems are in serious danger of reaching a point where they never even have this slim 50 + VP majority in the Senate again.
Yeah, like said above abolish the filibuster. A bunch of garbage centrists were ran last election and all lost by huge margins despite being made in a factory to appeal to people that never vote democrat. Maine, NC, Iowa, Texas, SC, and Kentucky (last 3 weren't even possible, no idea why they got so much donations). Run progressive, understanding candidates that can actually talk to their constituents instead of having hacks like Schumer pick garbage centrists to run. Progressives/more left-leaning candidates can win if given the right resources. We need to abandon this outdated way of thinking. No more center-right candidates running for the democrats. Progressive policies are popular in the country!
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,159
Gentrified Brooklyn
It seem to me that the people who insist the most that it's a messaging issue are often those who oppose of defunding the police as a matter of policy/ideology. But it's always easier to argue about polls than defend on merit the insane police budgets we have in this country.

Black Lives Matter was exactly the same thing, the people who shouted the hardest that it's a messaging problem were those who didn't think cops are racist.

I think everyone kind of misunderstood me in the thread, lol.

Its less "defund" the actual definition or the assumed meaning that its to 'not have'.

But that it's history as a dogwhistle immediately invokes an idea things might not be on the "up and up" as far as either of the sentiments go.

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | DEFUND THE LEFT (Published 1982)

Is it fair to require taxpayers to finance the political activities of groups whose views they do not share? Most people would say no. Yet it has been estimated that, since the 1970's, hundreds of millions of dollars - maybe more than $1 billion - in taxpayers' money has been used each year to...


Its like me saying "We are going to be tough on racism!" The words and the sentiment are perfectly fine on paper but it also feels a bit icky and almost like a dogwhistle considering how "tough on" has been used as a slogan, lol.
 

Kainazzo

Member
Dec 13, 2017
661
Push to ban public service unions, like police.
Union busting as we've come to know it today didn't happen overnight, it would take years of steady, consorted effort at multiple levels to get rid of service unions (harder still for police). One difficulty in major changes like that is keeping people engaged, as whether or not progress is being made you'll have people saying it's not happening fast enough, and they stop caring.

Abolishing police unions would certainly take teeth away from their opposition to any and all action, but it seems like it'd be easier to just work towards turning public opinion away from them. I suppose a lot of the same pitfalls would still apply.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
Union busting as we've come to know it today didn't happen overnight, it would take years of steady, consorted effort at multiple levels to get rid of service unions (harder still for police). One difficulty in major changes like that is keeping people engaged, as whether or not progress is being made you'll have people saying it's not happening fast enough, and they stop caring.

Abolishing police unions would certainly take teeth away from their opposition to any and all action, but it seems like it'd be easier to just work towards turning public opinion away from them. I suppose a lot of the same pitfalls would still apply.
Reagan killed the ATC union. Granted, police have a web of bullshit unions, but still. Could restrict federal funding to towns hiring unionized police.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Union busting as we've come to know it today didn't happen overnight, it would take years of steady, consorted effort at multiple levels to get rid of service unions (harder still for police). One difficulty in major changes like that is keeping people engaged, as whether or not progress is being made you'll have people saying it's not happening fast enough, and they stop caring.

Abolishing police unions would certainly take teeth away from their opposition to any and all action, but it seems like it'd be easier to just work towards turning public opinion away from them. I suppose a lot of the same pitfalls would still apply.
We can get rid of police unions by making them illegal (or really, what we need to do is exempt cities from federal regulation that ban union prohibition as part of a contract). I don't think we need to do anything more broad because I think the issue here is specific.
Unions are not magic, unions just give union members more power, and we don't need cops to have more power, we need them to have less.

I think it's perfectly fine to specially target cops in such legislation.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
So with class consciousness, you can directly address abortion and trans rights because class consciousness allows for workers to think about the exploitation that they AND other workers face in so many different ways. Focusing solely on the rights of immigrants or the struggles of black trans sex workers without pointing out the struggles we all face, does not create cross identity solidarity with exploited immigrants or sex workers, but class consciousness allows for a worker to think about the exploitation they face first and then it allows them to think about the exploitation that others face that materially affects them.

This is magical thinking
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,155
"The Democrats lack strong branding."

As someone who has worked on more than a few corporate rebrands, you can't build a desirable brand on inaction. You can make shiny new logos and catchy slogans for days, but Democrats are pathologically incapable of following through on their biggest and most important promises, so that has become their brand.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,527
Haven't read the full article yet but based on that snippet, if fielding more center (a.k.a center-right) candidates is what the Democratic party needs to do in order to keep the far right authoritarians from gaining control of government, then I think they should do it. Sucks for the left's agenda (and so I bet this forum will hate it) but IMO the times call for pragmatism instead of idealism
they were/are already doing this lol. im not sure what to make of the implication that this hasnt been the strategy this whole time
 
Oct 28, 2017
10,000
tenor.gif
 

ryan299

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,428
"The Democrats lack strong branding."

As someone who has worked on more than a few corporate rebrands, you can't build a desirable brand on inaction. You can make shiny new logos and catchy slogans for days, but Democrats are pathologically incapable of following through on their biggest and most important promises, so that has become their brand.
Yup. They promise big, under deliver always and then wonder what went wrong.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
I have my issues with this, but this kind of hit me off the top and made me realize something



I have always said that the fact that complaining about defund is a bullshit cop out considering that 'Black Lives Matter' was sold as 'white lives don't matter' to a large amount of Americans. Defund doesn't mean get rid of, and it's pretty obtuse to think so.

But reading it in print, I realize that it's less about the term, but that the specific word 'defund' has such a negative connotation in the black community since it's a popular right wing dogwhistle, 'Defund the Welfare State', etc. Shit was everywhere during the Reagan era.

We've been saying this, though? Many times on this very forum.

Down to adding sources for this very thing. Either people skipped over the explanation or... idk.

When the right uses "defund" it usually means "erase entirely." How you say things is always important.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,475
Haven't read the full article yet but based on that snippet, if fielding more center (a.k.a center-right) candidates is what the Democratic party needs to do in order to keep the far right authoritarians from gaining control of government, then I think they should do it. Sucks for the left's agenda (and so I bet this forum will hate it) but IMO the times call for pragmatism instead of idealism

That's what we said with Trump. And, in fairness, with Trump I agreed. But you can't keep doing it. You're going to lose the support of the actual left, and browbeating them won't work.

I have my issues with this, but this kind of hit me off the top and made me realize something



I have always said that the fact that complaining about defund is a bullshit cop out considering that 'Black Lives Matter' was sold as 'white lives don't matter' to a large amount of Americans. Defund doesn't mean get rid of, and it's pretty obtuse to think so.

But reading it in print, I realize that it's less about the term, but that the specific word 'defund' has such a negative connotation in the black community since it's a popular right wing dogwhistle, 'Defund the Welfare State', etc. Shit was everywhere during the Reagan era.

My roommate (all of us are black) said defund the police was a bad idea that Democrats shouldn't waste time with. Then after more murders of black people by cops, a few weeks later he was like "Fuck, maybe they need to shrink the police force to only go after serious crime like murder." Literally, exactly what Defund the Police was aiming to do.

Nope. It's both activist and the Dems fault.

Well, you're gonna run into some issues there because the activists aren't "democrats" and they want to see progress, not explanations of "why we can't make that promise happen".
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,895
This board can be so dumb and reactionary sometimes.

Its expected to lose seats at the midterms if one party has a majority control of Congress and the White House.

To make it seem like the Democrats are automatic failures is a little strange to me.

Trump took a giant shit on the country and Biden is going to be left with the clean up. Citizens are going to blame Biden and Dems for all of their troubles by the end of the year.

This is pretty normal by now.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Nope. It's both activist and the Dems fault.
The Democratic Party can't fail, it can only be failed, apparently.

The Democratic Party's job is to elect Dems. The job of activists is to advance their cause. They don't care about electing Dems, they care about advancing the goals of their cause. And they shouldn't have to live as an extension of the Democratic party.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
The Democratic Party's job is to elect Dems. The job of activists is to advance their cause. They don't care about electing Dems, they care about advancing the goals of their cause. And they shouldn't have to live as an extension of the Democratic party.

If the activists goal is to not pass policy, then they are welcome to do whatever they please!
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
If the activists goal is to not pass policy, then they are welcome to do whatever they please!
Look at all the policy being passed now! Activists wanna see progress, they don't wanna hear about pragmatism and how we need more Joe Manchin's. The kind of swing voter the party is trying to attract - they're not going to organize for you the way an activist might if you take action on their cause.
 

yyr

Member
Nov 14, 2017
3,471
White Plains, NY
I really want to see what, if any, change we see here after the monthly child payments start going out next month.

I hope it's significant. As I mentioned in the politics OT this morning, a lot of Americans are about to start receiving substantial monthly payments and I think most of them have no clue.

Watch Democrats keep quiet about it, and Republicans take credit for it (and get away with it).
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,439
I have my issues with this, but this kind of hit me off the top and made me realize something



I have always said that the fact that complaining about defund is a bullshit cop out considering that 'Black Lives Matter' was sold as 'white lives don't matter' to a large amount of Americans. Defund doesn't mean get rid of, and it's pretty obtuse to think so.

But reading it in print, I realize that it's less about the term, but that the specific word 'defund' has such a negative connotation in the black community since it's a popular right wing dogwhistle, 'Defund the Welfare State', etc. Shit was everywhere during the Reagan era.


Yeah we have had discussions about this here on Era that always go south when anyone mentions that its not popular even with people you would expect it to be. And you are right it probably has a lot to do with connotations and connections from the past. But either way, its not as popular as we would like it to be which has made it a hurdle when it should and could be an accelerant. But some are viciously opposed to accepting that for whatever reason.

Stop pushing to defund the police.
Start pushing for police reform.

Or keep pushing to defund the police by pushing "reform". It's not the actions that people are hesitant of, its the terminology for some reason. I dont want to waste a decade with study after study explaining WHY that terminology is off putting for so many people, let's just get to work. Give people a slogan they won't gag at, and get the work done.


It seem to me that the people who insist the most that it's a messaging issue are often those who oppose of defunding the police as a matter of policy/ideology.

This isn't a random person screaming online on reddit. This article is saying they polled black voters specifically and found they weren't fond of the terminology. I mean, we just gonna pick and choose when we listen to POC or nah? We arent fans of police killing us and have no quarrels with the system being rebuilt and fixed. It only benefits us; getting feedback from POC then dismissing it because it doesn't vibe with your personal position ain't right.

And this isn't the first study thats indicated that it wasn't popular either. Maybe listening wouldnt be such a bad idea. Nobody is asking anyone to abandon the core crusade of rebuilding the system. I find it bizarre that the energy behind this is so weird. You could call it Chuck e Cheese for all I care as long as the result was me not having to turn my dash cam around to record the cab instead of the road ahead of me every time I get pulled over for a "routine traffic stop" for a chance at my people having some closure on why Im in the fucking morgue a day later.

The label is so completely unimportant to me in comparison to the desired end result. I just dont understand why its necessary to fight over this.
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
This isn't a random person screaming online on reddit. This article is saying they polled black voters specifically and found they weren't fond of the terminology. I mean, we just gonna pick and choose when we listen to POC or nah? We arent fans of police killing us and have no quarrels with the system being rebuilt and fixed. It only benefits us; getting feedback from POC then dismissing it because it doesn't vibe with your personal position ain't right.

And this isn't the first study thats indicated that it wasn't popular either. Maybe listening wouldnt be such a bad idea. Nobody is asking anyone to abandon the core crusade of rebuilding the system. I find it bizarre that the energy behind this is so weird. You could call it Chuck e Cheese for all I care as long as the result was me not having to turn my dash cam around to record the cab instead of the road ahead of me every time I get pulled over for a "routine traffic stop" for a chance at my people having some closure on why Im in the fucking morgue a day later.

The label is so completely unimportant to me in comparison to the desired end result. I just dont understand why its necessary to fight over this.
But this what I'm talking about, you are against defunding the police, right?
(sorry if I'm misremembering/mistaking you for someone else).

Like why not talk about that?
I think it's a more important discussion, and I really think there is not much point arguing about strategy when we can't even agree on what is the desired solution.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,118
Yeah we have had discussions about this here on Era that always go south when anyone mentions that its not popular even with people you would expect it to be. And you are right it probably has a lot to do with connotations and connections from the past. But either way, its not as popular as we would like it to be which has made it a hurdle when it should and could be an accelerant. But some are viciously opposed to accepting that for whatever reason.



Or keep pushing to defund the police by pushing "reform". It's not the actions that people are hesitant of, its the terminology for some reason. I dont want to waste a decade with study after study explaining WHY that terminology is off putting for so many people, let's just get to work. Give people a slogan they won't gag at, and get the work done.




This isn't a random person screaming online on reddit. This article is saying they polled black voters specifically and found they weren't fond of the terminology. I mean, we just gonna pick and choose when we listen to POC or nah? We arent fans of police killing us and have no quarrels with the system being rebuilt and fixed. It only benefits us; getting feedback from POC then dismissing it because it doesn't vibe with your personal position ain't right.

And this isn't the first study thats indicated that it wasn't popular either. Maybe listening wouldnt be such a bad idea. Nobody is asking anyone to abandon the core crusade of rebuilding the system. I find it bizarre that the energy behind this is so weird. You could call it Chuck e Cheese for all I care as long as the result was me not having to turn my dash cam around to record the cab instead of the road ahead of me every time I get pulled over for a "routine traffic stop" for a chance at my people having some closure on why Im in the fucking morgue a day later.

The label is so completely unimportant to me in comparison to the desired end result. I just dont understand why its necessary to fight over this.

The problem with "reform" is that it has lead to where we are today. Many people's idea of reform is giving the police MORE funds rather than giving them less. President Biden's platform calls it "reform" and wants to give them more money. In my city a ballot initiative to simply hold police accountable, by targeting collective bargaining rights, was called "reform". It failed. There was another "reform" measure that lead to an $8 million increase in police funding. City Council voted for it.

I'm not saying "defund" is the best terminology and protesters/activists don't need to focus test their demands. Many in the defund and the prison abolition movement are POC. I would say that the most prominent voices in both movements are POC. The idea of abolition of both prisons and police with be very unpopular for a long time because it's hard for a lot of people to imagine a society without either. It's such a drastic reimagining of the systems in place. Now, I'm not saying either thing will come to pass. And I'm not saying other people's voices don't matter.

The biggest issue is that we need to have serious talks about crime in the country. So many people still think broken windows policing works. So many people think that criminals have character flaws and moral failings that lead to crime. It's never about the conditions that lead them to crime.

Either way, protestors and activists will continue to use whatever terminology they wish. They aren't to blame for the Dems' failings.
 

Curufinwe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,924
DE
"The Democrats lack strong branding."

As someone who has worked on more than a few corporate rebrands, you can't build a desirable brand on inaction. You can make shiny new logos and catchy slogans for days, but Democrats are pathologically incapable of following through on their biggest and most important promises, so that has become their brand.

Biden's biggest and most important promise was to get the pandemic under control after a year of Trump's inaction and incompetence letting it devastate the country. And he's already done it.

amp.usatoday.com

'Failure is not an option': Biden faces pressure to deliver in 'wartime' effort against COVID-19 crisis

Biden ran for office on a promise to tackle the coronavirus pandemic, a pledge that could determine his administration's success.
 

Bohemian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
751
Thanks to smart organization and distribution, we're actually seeing our families this summer, going to concerts, movies. That wouldn't have happened in a Republican administration, where states would be treated unequally, and care might go to the highest bidder.

Like, have a lot of people forgotten just how painful and awful 2016-2020 was? We showed up in 2020 and made a difference! Progress will probably never be as fast as we'd like it to be, but we can't give up. Keep in mind, the Manchin's of the world might get a lot of attention, but there are a lot of great progressives working their asses off right now and fighting for the policies you helped put them in office for. Let's not abandon them.

We successfully held the line in 2020 and prevented a fascism-inclined party from completely corrupting and taking over our government. Now, let's take it a step further and try to grab more seats so we can stop putting a spotlight on folks like Manchin.

Some of the best ways to try and push for a better 2022/24:
  • Talk about the achievements of the admin: to make sure others are aware, and to remind yourself. We're talking COVID (relief package, vaccine distribution, getting back to normal earlier than anticipated), rejoining the Paris climate accord to try and fight for a better future for us and our families, how the admin extended enrollment on healthcare.gov for those in need during Covid, reversed the military ban on transgender Americans joining the military, revoked the Keystone pipeline permit, required non-citizen to be included in the census, etc.
  • As a follow-up to that, the more Dems talk about Trump and less about healthcare, accomplishments, etc. the worse it is for Dems. Focus on the positive; don't drown in the negative. Let the Republican fight about Trump.
  • Don't turn on each other. The coalition we built in 2020 was huge. We can push for more progressive ideas and concepts, but remember the moderates aren't our enemies. We need to work together.
  • Stay involved. Whether it's through donating, phone banking, postcard writing...whatever it is. Push for a better future. Don't expect others to do it for you.
  • Quit with the doom posting. We are not destined to lose the majorities in 2022. It's going to be fucking hard, but it was fucking hard in 2020 and we did it. Remember, we overcame DeJoy, ballot box destruction, Trump intimidation caravans, etc - that's a lot!
  • Go to volunteer events and see the difference in mentality. It's all about what can we do. People laugh, smile, work together. Don't get sucked up in the Twitter and Era negativity bubble. Realize that you have had an impact, and can continue having an impact, even if sometimes it may feel like our voices are not heard.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,439
But this what I'm talking about, you are against defunding the police, right?
(sorry if I'm misremembering/mistaking you for someone else).

No, Im for defunding the police while labeling it whatever it takes to get people to not rally against it or be opposed to it. I believe most of the poc arent REALLY against defunding and demilitarizing the police either; just that for whatever reason the verbiage puts them off.

It reminds me of the "No child left behind" stuff, where the branding was so strong people were hesitant to be against it, even though much of the programs actual internals were harmful to poor neighborhoods and schools/children. But noone wants to say "I want to leave children behind" so they tolerate it. I think people do want police MASSIVELY defunded and reeled in; but for whatever reason (and I think the reasons are complex) I think the branding of defunding the police is toxic to many folks; even those that would benefit from it.

I feel like we should adopt whatever terminology that works, but when the details hit the paper, defunding these departments needs to be priority 1. If the Republicans can call a system "Pro Life" while being a death cult hell bent on defunding welfare programs for single parents and against vaccines that stop the spread of plagues, I refuse to believe that we can't defund the police while calling it something agreeable for those who have a problem with the straightforwardness of the current labeling.
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
since it's a popular right wing dogwhistle, 'Defund the Welfare State', etc. Shit was everywhere during the Reagan era.
Yeaa...nooo it's not that deep. Ppl are not going to tie "defund" to stuff that happened 30 years ago...

Low information voters hear defund which doesn't sound like a solution but a first step in a 20 step plan.

Find a better buzz word to describes police reform and you'll have a less irrational response to the issue from the broder populace.
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,155
Biden's biggest and most important promise was to get the pandemic under control after a year of Trump's inaction and incompetence letting it devastate the country. And he's already done it.

amp.usatoday.com

'Failure is not an option': Biden faces pressure to deliver in 'wartime' effort against COVID-19 crisis

Biden ran for office on a promise to tackle the coronavirus pandemic, a pledge that could determine his administration's success.

I know Trump broke everyone's brains and sent all standards crashing through the floor, but "I'm not going to actively sabotage attempts to control a modern plague" is not a big promise. It's the most basic thing you could ask of a President. Biden did a really good job, but that's not going to save 2022.

Regardless, please don't try to refocus this on Biden specifically. This is about the party collectively. Even with COVID raging, it wasn't enough to win us the Senate—that took the last minute promise of $2,000 checks (which they only kinda sorta followed through on). The lesson there is that people need to see their lives materially improve. Simply not being evil bastards does not get you the votes you need.

Democrats made a lot of material promises, and they now have exactly what they said they needed to fulfill them. Failure to act on healthcare, voting rights, student debt, the minimum wage, and everything else that they practically broke their ribs beating their chest over will reinforce their "do-nothing" brand, and it will not go unpunished.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,968
South Carolina
We want more Manchins and Sinemas...in red states. *side eyes Iowa for electing some fraud who didnt know what soybeans and corn sell for AGAIN*

From the start, I have never understood how "defund" is supposed to mean anything except "get rid of". If my boss told me, "We're defunding your department" that would mean I'm fired, or transferred to a new department. The GOP wants to "defund" Planned Parenthood, and they definitely mean "get rid of it". If something loses its funding, it can no longer operate, so it is de facto eliminated.

This isn't like "Black Lives Matter", where you have to be deliberately obtuse or arguing in bad faith in order to interpret it as "Only Black Lives Matter" or "Black Lives Matter The Most" or whatever. "Defund the Police" needs a bunch of contextual knowledge and knowledge of authorial intent to correctly interpret as "Defund the Police...but not completely, just a reasonable amount (we'll figure out exactly how much later) and reallocate those funds to a more diverse set of rapid-response agencies to cover a wider array of problems with more nuanced solutions".

Yup. Alot of pouting going on. And ice cold takes. Same Cartago Delenda Est, and on a day where anger is warranted, its just become background noise.

That said, its an autopsy. It aint supposed to be pretty for anyone with a knowledge base on the subject. Gotta pull up them Big Kid britches and get to work.

Yeaa...nooo it's not that deep. Ppl are not going to tie "defund" to stuff that happened 30 years ago...

Low information voters hear defund which doesn't sound like a solution but a first step in a 20 step plan.

Find a better buzz word to describes police reform and you'll have a less irrational response to the issue from the broder populace.

The problem, and this ties into the top post, is that once the Right Wing Machine gets its a bone to gnaw on out there that works, they will not stop leveraging it for all its worth. I call them "rorschach words" that mean different discrete nuanced things to different audiences. Knowing this, the semantics of one definition is moot: they hear Scary Socialist Words and Those People Running Wild cuz that's what they wanna hear: a fear they control, not Covid-19 or a horribad drought, or what have you they don't. These people know their audience, and their audience knows them. Shit, I had to do a running argument against CRT today, as its Scary Words to hide their white supremecist buddies, but it took forever for them to even hear that.

I tend to bang on about this, but fighting this complete lack of sincerity of words in the authortarian mind rather than the choice of words themselves, as Hannah Arendt taught.
 
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etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
There's a simple formula here.

More democrats equals more policy.

If you like things the way they are, please don't help the democrats win more seats!
The formula broke down some time ago. We have more Democrats, in the Obama admin, we had a trifecta. There is something deeper at play here then there just not being enough of them and that is not on me as an activist or a voter, that is on the institution (the Democratic Party) to think about.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,853
59 senators and a house majority got Obamacare.

That was the last time we had a majority in both chambers so you only have two data points in the last 24 years!
Also, it's worth noting that that 59 seat majority had a lot of blue dogs ""moderates"" in it. Far more than the 2ish there are now.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,140
Sydney
I read the article and I'm a little skeptical of these pieces of analysis that blame Democrats electoral problems on minority voters not liking the anti police rhetoric and not having much to prove it except a poll we don't see.

If it's true how come Larry Krasner just obliterated his opponent (especially with black voters in Philly) last month doing the very thing that apparently kills Democrats with voters of colour? It suggests the analysis is wrong, or that it's more complicated than is being made out.
 

Mulligan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,505
This is magical thinking

Completely disagree. People are selfish. A straight 59 year old machinist from Youngstown, Ohio, does not have any material interest in caring about trans people. They will have a material interest in caring about trans people if politicians who advocate on behalf of trans people and immigrants also advocate for labor protections, higher wages, and more public transit.

Addressing the material concerns of a class helps said class understand the material concerns of other oppressed people. It's why the Irish are so outspoken in their support for Palestine. It's why Fred Hampton and MLK were such huge supporters of all unions.

The best way to make people care about other people is to address their material class concerns. You cannot make a person care about a certain issue until they feel like they are getting something positive for their support.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
Completely disagree. People are selfish. A straight 59 year old machinist from Youngstown, Ohio, does not have any material interest in caring about trans people. They will have a material interest in caring about trans people if politicians who advocate on behalf of trans people and immigrants also advocate for labor protections, higher wages, and more public transit.

Addressing the material concerns of a class helps said class understand the material concerns of other oppressed people. It's why the Irish are so outspoken in their support for Palestine. It's why Fred Hampton and MLK were such huge supporters of all unions.

The best way to make people care about other people is to address their material class concerns. You cannot make a person care about a certain issue until they feel like they are getting something positive for their support.

This is such a babyfication of bigots.

Shit ton of rich people are bigots, a lot of bigots are materially comforting. This is lunacy.

Like you actually want to tell oppressed minorities that if we just give money and security to the people who attack you, deny you rights, hate you, that everything will be fine.

This is fairytales.

You have zero solutions for solving bigotry, you just literally claim as long we make me bigots materially comfort it'll all go away. This is magical thinking, and worse it's magical thinking that's far more sympathetic to bigots than those they hate.

You still haven't defined idpol lol btw
 
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Mulligan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,505
User Banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around bigotry, misquoting civil rights leaders to deflect from issues of race
This is such a babyfication of bigots.

Shit ton of rich people are bigots.

I'm sorry you're just wrong.

You're not going to shame a poor white guy into caring about feminism or racism. You have to win these people over through material concerns.

The rich have a material interest in being racist/divisive/bigoted since the system they reinforce through politics is racist, classist, etc. because capitalism needs exploitation and division to succeed.

Are you saying you disagree with Malcolm X?
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
I'm sorry you're just wrong.

You're not going to shame a poor white guy into caring about feminism or racism. You have to win these people over through material concerns.

The rich have a material interest in being racist/divisive/bigoted because the system they reinforce through politics is racist, classist, etc. because capitalism needs exploitation and division to succeed.

Are you saying you disagree with Malcolm X?


Are you saying Malcom X believed that absolutely nothing else needed to be done but make white people materially comfortable to solve bigotry?

Because that's what you're saying.

Like you talk and honestly all I hear is when push comes to shove you have more sympathy for what you perceive to be the impoverished bigot than the people they hate.

And I say perceived because like what evidence do you actually have that bigotry and oppression is entirely class inequality based, given that bigotry comes from the rich and poor and middle class alike.

This is class reductionism, and magical thinking which prioritizes the comfort of the bigot over those they hate.

This is a dangerous path which leads to essentially selling out minorities in the name of class unity.

You can't remove social issues, the rights of racial and sexual and gender minorities, from the discussion and just pretend it'll all go away after we solve class inequality. You cannot just go Idpol boo it's class stupid, you're not going to solve shit, you're just going to have a more class conscious brand of white supremacy. Congrats!
 
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Mulligan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,505
Are you saying Malcom X believed that absolutely nothing else needed to be done but make white people materially comfortable to solve bigotry?

This is what Malcolm X said about material politics:

The greatest mistake of the movement has been trying to organize a sleeping people around specific goals. You have to wake the people up first, then you'll get action.

This is not just about racist white people. It's not about paying people to not be racist.

It's about actually addressing the concerns a class collectively has and using the achievement of materially changing a person's life (black, white, brown) to gain their support for issues that they don't have any real skin in the game for. No one is going to support something that doesn't help them too.
 

Mulligan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,505
Appeasement of the material needs of poor germans sure worked out in 1938 amirite guys.

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT NAZIS.

You're not going to reach Nazis nor should you try.

My point is that if you want to make actual change in this country for everyone, the best way of doing that is by addressing the collective concerns of the largest class: the working class, which, I should note is majority female and will be held by a majority of POCs by 2032.

Stop being brain dead by advocating for a form of politics that led to the Democratic Party losing to Bush 2 once (2000 was a stolen election) and Trump once. Identity politics don't work.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
I read the article and I'm a little skeptical of these pieces of analysis that blame Democrats electoral problems on minority voters not liking the anti police rhetoric and not having much to prove it except a poll we don't see.

Well, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of a piece funded (at least partially) by a "center-left" democratic "think tank" that has regularly been used to push corporate and neoliberal policy/agendas, including reportedly working with the Koch brothers.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,528
IM NOT TALKING ABOUT NAZIS.

You're not going to reach Nazis nor should you try.

My point is that if you want to make actual change in this country for everyone, the best way of doing that is by addressing the collective concerns of the largest class: the working class, which, I should note is majority female and will be held by a majority of POCs by 2032.

Stop being brain dead by advocating for a form of politics that led to the Democratic Party losing to Bush 2 once (2000 was a stolen election) and Trump once. Identity politics don't work.
Stop pushing for things getting better for minorities! Instead think of the whites and their needs! This is the way forward, comrades!
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
This is what Malcolm X said about material politics:



This is not just about racist white people. It's not about paying people to not be racist.

It's about actually addressing the concerns a class collectively has and using the achievement of materially changing a person's life (black, white, brown) to gain their support for issues that they don't have any real skin in the game for. No one is going to support something that doesn't help them too.


Get it through your head, solving class inequality will not solve bigotry, you have to do a two pronged effort.

You have to address social issues separate from class, simultaneously because a white supremacist isn't going to stop being a white supremacist once they're more materially comfortable. In fucking fact those white supremacists who are materially uncomfortable (I see you keep dancing around the fact that many many many bigots are in fact not materially uncomfortable) would rather remain so if it meant they can continue to oppress those they hate. The opposition to trans rights are spearheaded by middle class white women.... they aren't going to stop decrying us a sexual deviants who want to rape women if we solve class inequality.

Again you came in here to yell IDpol is bullshit, we only need class, and you still haven't actually defined it, and your entire argument has been eh fix that and everything else will be fine.

Not to mention you basically are rationalizing bigotry as normal because you "No one is going to support something that doesn't help them too."

Like tell a trans kid that, tell a black kid that, that they shouldn't expect support for existing because their existence doesn't help the other person, you are normalizing hatred, you are rationalizing oppression. Like What an absolutely horrific way to perceive the plight of oppressed people.


"No one is going to support something that doesn't help them too."

You might as well be telling minorities that it's completely normal to view our lives as worthless because what our are lives doing to help those who hate us.
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
Lol y'all are seriously gonna eat up a report by a group that fought against COVID relief and the $15 minimum wage

jacobinmag.com

The Centrist Think Tank Third Way Just Can’t Quit Austerity

For a moment, it seemed like the centrist think tank Third Way was abandoning its commitment to austerity. No longer: Third Way is now boosting a campaign to deny $1,400 COVID-19 survival checks to tens of millions of Americans and undermining the push to raise the minimum wage to $15.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
IM NOT TALKING ABOUT NAZIS.

You're not going to reach Nazis nor should you try.

My point is that if you want to make actual change in this country for everyone, the best way of doing that is by addressing the collective concerns of the largest class: the working class, which, I should note is majority female and will be held by a majority of POCs by 2032.

Stop being brain dead by advocating for a form of politics that led to the Democratic Party losing to Bush 2 once (2000 was a stolen election) and Trump once. Identity politics don't work.

The winning message is "the rich and powerful use racism as a way of dividing the working folks against each other, we've got to look out for one another."

The winning message is NOT "white people must take a step back and acknowledge their privilege."

Anyone who is confused why should listen to this podcast with Ian Haney Lopez a law professor who studies racism in electoral politics.

pca.st

What Democrats got wrong about Hispanic voters - The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Donald Trump has built his presidency on top of racial dog whistles, xenophobic rhetoric, and anti-immigrant policies. A core belief among liberals was that this strategy would help Trump with whites but almost certainly hurt him with Latinos, and people of color more broadly. Then the opposite...
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,140
Sydney
Well, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of a piece funded (at least partially) by a "center-left" democratic "think tank" that has regularly been used to push corporate and neoliberal policy/agendas, including reportedly working with the Koch brothers.

Wow you weren't kidding lol;

In 2017, the Third Way think tank conducted a listening tour in rural Wisconsin as part of a political research effort to understand the results of the 2016 presidential election.[SUP][34][/SUP] This tour was the focus of an article in The Atlantic magazine, where reporter Molly Ball observed many focus group participants expressing strongly politically partisan views that challenged Third Way's ideology that political partisanship was not most people's primary concern. Ball recounts hearing focus group participants blame things like government bureaucracy, changes in society and the family, young people, welfare recipients, Muslims, Republicans, Democrats, income inequality, gerrymandering and union rights for their problems. Despite this, Ball writes that Third Way summarized its findings in a short report that ignored all the sentiments heard on the tour which challenged Third Way's ideology and instead selectively highlighted sentiments which adhered to Third Way's ideology:

The report surprised me when I read it. Despite the great variety of views the researchers and I had heard on our tour, the report had somehow reached the conclusion that Wisconsinites wanted consensus, moderation, and pragmatism—just like Third Way. We had heard people blame each other for their own difficulties, take refuge in tribalism, and appeal to extremes. But the report mentioned little of that. Instead it described the prevailing attitude as "an intense work ethic that binds the community together and helps it adapt to change.[SUP][35][/SUP]
— Molly Ball
As a result of Ball's account, the validity of Third Way's research has come into question.[SUP][36][/SUP] However, Third Way strongly disputed Ball's claim in a public post. Third Way's Matt Bennett wrote in response: "We are dismayed that in the story, Molly writes that we omitted information that is actually in the report[SUP][37][/SUP] we drafted about the WI visit. And she indicates that we have drawn conclusions that we do not reach and do not share".[SUP][38][/SUP] He also stated:

Yes, in the last page of the report, we provide some evidence that people believe they can still work together. But nowhere in the report do we even imply that means they think politicians should support a centrist policy agenda. [...] Moreover, this research is by its very nature anecdotal. It is about impressions, which can vary widely, not quantitative data, which can be extrapolated. We make that very clear in our description of the project and in each of the reports on the visits we've done, each of which have been quite different from the rest.[SUP][39][/SUP]


Seems they got a bit of form!
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,327
Lol y'all are seriously gonna eat up a report by a group that fought against COVID relief and the $15 minimum wage

jacobinmag.com

The Centrist Think Tank Third Way Just Can’t Quit Austerity

For a moment, it seemed like the centrist think tank Third Way was abandoning its commitment to austerity. No longer: Third Way is now boosting a campaign to deny $1,400 COVID-19 survival checks to tens of millions of Americans and undermining the push to raise the minimum wage to $15.
Oh jesus it's these people?!