yeah the area of flactuation is importand , if you only need to drop the gpu a bit to keep high the cpu it would be great
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NX Gamer: PS5 Full Spec Analysis | A new generation is Born
- Thread starter Equanimity
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yeah the area of flactuation is importand , if you only need to drop the gpu a bit to keep high the cpu it would be great
Am I alone in believing that while the Xbox is superior that Playstation took a more innovative route with their design decisions. As in the tech in the Xbox is amazing and superior, yet PS has a console that is slightly weaker but with more potential?
Or am I off base?
Or am I off base?
if ps5 is 399 and xboxsx is 499 then the ps5 is closer than ms expected. (1.8ghz of oberon for 8tfs)
Did you read the DF article https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs completely and took a look at every customization did, especially in the storage topic that seems to be popular currently?
My point is that there are multiple ways to approach this issue. I mentioned 1 extreme (where a dev takes full advantage of XSX and someone else ports a compromised version) and you the other end (game is designed with limitations of ONE in mind and little difference between versions other than performance metrics).
Just saying we don't know what their approach is going to be and should reservejudgement on their strategy until we see some games.
Anyway, sorry for off topic.
I am also looking forward to how they price both consoles, I think the relative close performance delta, means that both are priced at the point.
Thanks for this, I am sure watched their breakdown, but Ill read the article anyway.
I am also taking to devs on both machines and I am working on some stuff to get info out there. I will be digging into this more, odd comment about SSD as RAM where was this mentioned?
I tried to explain yesterday the same thing dictator is saying in this thread and got attacked. The hardest sony fans dont want to hear it. It'll cause a huge uproar and this forum is already on fire. Maybe best left for a DF video in a week or two once things cool down.
Wait for more info before making that thread. At least actual numbers. Otherwise it will be the same lunatics shouting at each other all over again.
I don't doubt you have tech background to support your reasoning, just like this NX guy, or many in this forum or others. You obviously will have insider info and contact with devs that may give you a better context and knowledge.
But your personal conclusions are based on your knowledge are as valid as anyone with similar background. The same goes for NX gamer. So shouldn't be considered as gospel, because in the end while wider , it is still not the full picture, and everyone has his own preferences (from the technical approach to the most mundane things). Even the devs you approach have personal interest or links that may affect the message you that from them.
Oh, and i think it is fair to question who is feeding us with info, because Cerny or Spencer give you their vision as the correct approach because they want to sell you a product, obvious, But NXgamer or DF or any other also has a reason behind.
And just for background, and considering my limited knowledge on the topic, is easy to perceive the different approaches depending on which member of DF is talking/posting. Or even going further, the way faceoffs have changed, or not, since the early days.
Sorry for the offtopic
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I think it doesnt work like that. They are monitoring transistors occuped in cpu and gpu continously while running max clock in both. If they reach an occupancy point (for example all the cus and registers busy) is when the smartshift enters in the game reducing cap clock from cpu or gpu.
For example: a real time scene from Uncharted takes 95% of transistors in both cpu and gpu. They have a profile and know that with that occpancy they are over the 220 watts cap of the cooling solution, so they start downclocking. And that scene will hit that point in all PS5s out there.
I'm not a game dev but from my experience I/O have always been a bottleneck for me.
I have to rely on asynchronous operations all the time and it quickly become a mess if I add threads into the code. Bugs like double free, dead locks and failed streams/futures/promises/co-routines whatever you call them sometimes give me nightmare.
With the I/O speed of PS5 maybe I could ditch a lot of the hassle and go back to synchronous code and resolve a lof conflict between threads.
Life will be much easier for me.
I have to rely on asynchronous operations all the time and it quickly become a mess if I add threads into the code. Bugs like double free, dead locks and failed streams/futures/promises/co-routines whatever you call them sometimes give me nightmare.
With the I/O speed of PS5 maybe I could ditch a lot of the hassle and go back to synchronous code and resolve a lof conflict between threads.
Life will be much easier for me.
You are def on to something Here. Because DDR3 on the low end transfers at 6.4 GB/s high end 12.4GB/s
PS4 SSD is 5.5GB uncompressed vs up to 8-9 GB compressed.
They absolutely could follow the same model they had for the PS4 Pro.
Correction, 8-9GB/s is the expected speed on compressed data, but it can go up to 22GB/s
Are we sure it's so simple? He alluded to the shape of the workload affecting clocks. I'm not sure it's a simple clockspeed see-saw. If the shape of the workload, the 'utilisation'/occupancy allows it, it sounded like both can be run at their max clocks - or, at least, that you wouldn't have a simple relationship between cpu and gpu upclock/downclock.
I think it needs a bit more clarification anyway.
edit - if devs are saying to you it's a simple clock see-saw, then that's fair enough!
By people in this thread musing about total RAM amount for the game vs System Reserve. I do not think the PS5 will have a vastly different strstegy than their competitor for System reservation.
Well, i don't know, but that ex sony guy from the crunch episode said something in this direction. Maybe the benefit is more on the dev side, less stress, less hours of work, less code less testing, and hopefully better conditions (that at the same time may mean similar crunch because they don't need to hire so many people,)
I would think the CPU & GPU have separate power budgets. Neither part 'steals' from the other. That would make things very hairy, the CPU might be busy with critical aspects (and if the GPU starts stealing in that moment...). When CPU is idle it might lend resources to the GPU (through Smart Shift).
SSD have life expectancy connected to write cycles. If you have hundreds of writes to memory per hour you will destroy the drive in a matter of days.
This is why I am extremely skeptical of anyone who thinks the SSD is some kind of ace for every problem the PS5 has.
No they wont, the options here with the I/O construction SSD mean that you can cache non-active RAM allocations when a game is running to free up core RAM. The OS still needs to reside with the Kernal, Thread priority, System calls etc but holding a 3GB footprint when you can cache the idle parts make much more sense in a dedicated console over a PC for example.
What exactly would they be writing on the SSD. It would be loading the OS package to memory. There isnt any writing involved there, unless I'm mistaken as to how an installed OS would work.
I think the difference is that the asic can handle that much, not that the SSD will actually reach that.
You can see zlib vs Kraken on RAD's oodle page. Kraken depacks around 5 times quicker and packs ~20% better. BCPack is likely something similar to oodle lossless image but we're probably not going to see any numbers on that without a leak as it's not a very end user type of thing to talk about.
The 22GB/s is on certain patterns of highly repetitive data that can be more highly compressed. So if you have 4:1 compression ratio. It won't be typical though.
I saw these comparisons but quicker is one thing - both companies built asics that do the lossless compression in realtime so the time advantage is not applicable here.
In case you missed, here is a small twitter convo on the topic:
Cerny explicitly stated those numbers can be reached if the data is compressed very well on the SSD, same for the 6GB/s speed on the series X.
I don't think this is a race where the most implemented algorithms win but I am not farmiliar with the current tech standard when it comes to lossless compression algorithms and especially not their application when it comes to gaming. I do find it an interesting topic, though and would like to hear from more people in the industry about it :)
The ram reserved in ps4/xbone isn't just for OS. It's also for apps and social features (party chat, multitasking, suspend resume shenanigans) and they absolutely write into ram.
Just Kraken? lol. oodle in software on ps4/xb1 beats both their hardware decompressors.
I think there's a super big assumption there that Sony wouldn't have newer kinds of texture encoder in their SDK. I mean, admittedly he predicates that all on an if, but it's a big if. AFAIK you could use whatever kind of texture compression you wanted on PS4.
In terms of decoding, whether there's silicon for specific non-general texture decompression, that's another question. However, crunch, for example, is a relatively light decode. Maybe BCPack is heavier which is why MS included a decoder for it.
But you are countering assumption with assumption. This guy at least has worked with both Kraken and Zlib and praised MS for implementing texture compression, after 10 years or something like that. You also don't have to defend it here - it was only to give context as it is currently the only person that spoke about it publicly, at least I didn't find anything else.
And of course one can do whatever you want in terms of texture compression, the question is whether the ASIC can help you with it.
And even then, why are some ppl talking about 'closing the gap'?
Why does it have to be about console wars? I knew when this thread was made it was gonna happen, lol.
I don't understand this though, and its the same argument that we got when the One X came out. Im glad that both parties will now both be competing in the first party department, but why do people pretend that third party doesn't matter? It mattered when PS4 beat out Xbox one in 2013/2014, but it stopped mattering when One X came out and apparently doesn't matter now that XSX has more horsepower.
I'd say playing 90% of my library in higher resolutions, frame-rates and with better assets is a big deal. Especially now that the CPU gap has widened we will almost definitely see frame rate discrepancies in multi-plats. When Xbox one was down on specs, it mattered alot, when Xbox took the lead in specs (particularly the GPU), the GPU and resolution stopped mattering and frame-rates became important, now that XSX has a GPU and CPU advantage for resolution and frame rates, neither matter. To me, this is a big deal for first and third party games and im just confused why anybody would say that it doesn't matter.
I don't think it's too big of an assumption to say there will be texture encoders like crunch available for PS5. There are all kinds of compression libs available for PS4. I think that's a smaller assumption than the assumption he starts with, that's my point.
If encoders like crunch are available for PS5 (I think so), and there is no hardware decode support for that, we can ask how that shakes out in saturating PS5's SSD bandwidth etc. What resources are needed for decode to saturate the raw bandwidth. But it's a different question than the one being asked there - and I think one that addresses the more likely scenario,
are we ever going to know these data? do df or nx have some method to actually study this while in game or we have to wait official news from sony?
That's the good part in recent discussions as we don't know specifics, everyone can turn everything how he wants because nobody knows the specifics :)
Anyway, when it comes to software, anyone can use anything. RAD Game Tools build middleware and everyone can use it if they pay for it. This isn't even up to Sony or MS but every game studio out there.
Well, in the minute 17:30 of the unveil, if i understood correctly, when talking about kraken, Cerny referred to a custom decompression chip builti n the IO unit, the one that in a very specific case could allow to reach 22GB/s
Correct... the only thing Sony/MS can 'do' here is offer certain licenses free, which they do. I think that's a little less meaningful nowadays than it was in the past though - so much is available more easily than ever, to anyone, in terms of tooling and libraries. There are still the odd bits of middleware that are expensive though, so for indies in particular it might be nice for the platform holders to continue to target those bits of software for inclusion in their own 'as standard' licensing. Anyway... we digress...
Yeah, that's the kraken decompressor. If there are others, they weren't mentioned. Well, I think there was mention of zlib also intitially, but for general purpose data decompression, Kraken seems to be their go-to.
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How are you feeling, Alex? Looking forward to your Doom PC video, when you're back to 100% of course.
Wait for failoverflow to hack the console, getting linux booting on it and telling you how the system is actually set up this time :)
If the PS5 can use more memory for games, that can certainly give them an asset quality advantage, but I still haven't seen evidence that Cerny said this.
The fast NVMe is certainly interesting. I'm not quite convinced it won't still often be bottlenecked by CPU in many cases, but I can't wait to see devs try to take advantage of the SSDs on both consoles.
The more people I hear it from the more apparent it becomes that Sony designed their asses off with this console. It's inspired engineering on their part, and shows they have a dman good idea of where game design is headed. I'm sure that's helped by having their finger on the pulse of some of the most technically gifted studios, and their own industry pedigree with people like Mark Cerny in positions of leadership.
Shame they couldn't find a way to articulate fucking none of that in their presentation, despite Cerny's enthusiasm.
Shame they couldn't find a way to articulate fucking none of that in their presentation, despite Cerny's enthusiasm.
Regarding asset quality:
Regarding the SSD, it is not reliant on CPU - it has dedicated co-processors for management on wafer:
