Nvidia buys ARM for 40 billion

Pokemaniac · Sep 14, 2020

eonden said:
Nvidia ARM CPU is a very long term thing that won't happen in 10 years (at least) in the PC front. ARM is just not supported. We might see Nvidia finally actually being competitive in the ARM side (were Tegra did lol, but it did great stuff on automotive) and in their server service, which has already gotten boosted after some other purchases earlier this year.

Regardles,, we won't see anything coming out of this purchase for at least 2-3 years.

PC's are actually a lot closer to being ready for ARM CPUs than you might expect. Windows, Linux, and Mac all have native ARM ports, with some level of emulation available for x86 software. You can literally go and buy a Windows laptop with a Snapdragon chip in it already. The main obstacles at this point are:

Performance, at least at the high end, though ARM is catching up. Nvidia throwing their hat in the ring could certainly help on the GPU side for devices using integrated graphics.
While there is definitely emulation available, it's pretty slow, and at least Windows lacks the ability to emulate x64 binaries. As the performance gets better, so will the emulation performance, though.
On Desktop, no one is really making the necessary motherboards and socketable CPUs that you'd need to build a something that resembles a typical desktop PC at this point. Right now they tend to come as a set.
Native app support, at least on Windows (Linux already has fairly robust support thanks to open source, and Mac developers are about to make the transition if they want to or not).

All of these problems could probably be solved within a few years or so if there's sufficient interest in solving them.

mugurumakensei said:
no. Existing legal contracts (licenses) must be obeyed. Also, there's no incentive for nvidia to increase price. Up selling to new license terms that include GPU tech would be the move.

ARM actually already had a GPU architecture called Mali that they licensed out. I imagine that that will be one of the first things on the chopping block for new designs, though, unless they want to keep it around as the super low power option.

Filipus · Sep 14, 2020

neoak said:
This is gonna kill ARM. Nvidia sued Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple and others in the past when they tried to get those "Kepler patents" license fees.

If there is one thing semiconductor companies do not forget, it's lawsuits. Especially when they are basically an attempt at patent trolling. It went nowhere and no one paid a dime to nVidia for patents.

Nvidia sues Samsung and Qualcomm like SemiAccurate said

If you saw today’s new Nvidia patent trolling lawsuits against Samsung and Qualcomm. SemiAccurate told you about them over a year ago.

www.semiaccurate.com

Nvidia sues Qualcomm, Samsung for infringing on its 'invention of the GPU'

Nvidia has filed lawsuits against Samsung and Qualcomm -- and essentially asked for a complete halt on product sales on every other competitive GPU in the business.

www.extremetech.com

Nvidia Sues Qualcomm, Samsung Over GPU Patents

The graphics chip maker wants to block Samsung mobile devices using Exynos chips and Qualcomm's Adreno GPUs.

www.pcmag.com

Nvidia sues Qualcomm, Samsung over graphics patents

Nvidia Corp NVDA.O has sued rival chipmakers Qualcomm QCOM.O and Samsung Electronics 005930.KS, accusing both companies of infringing its patents on graphics processing technology.

www.reuters.com

Arm's business model is brilliant. We will maintain its open-licensing model and customer neutrality, serving customers in any industry, across the world, and further expand Arm's IP licensing portfolio with NVIDIA's world-leading GPU and AI technology.

I don't think this is a good thing for the industry but I certainly don't think ARM will die at the hands of Nvidia. I really thing if anything it just boosted the chance we actually see a big change in the PC same in the next 10 years maybe. Right now I don't see 86x going anywhere for Windows computers but everything else? Full ARM 100%

DrDeckard · Sep 14, 2020

shinken said:
They are 1/3 bigger than intel, 3+ times bigger than AMD, 3x bigger than Sony and 1/3 smaller than Samsung.

Nvidia - $300b
Intel - $200b
AMD - $90b
Sony - $97b
Samsung - $400b

They are not that company that only makes PC videocards. They are huge.

where are these figures from? I knew Nvidia were growing at an alarming rate, but topping intel?

Just checked the net worth..insane! What the eff

Pokemaniac · Sep 14, 2020

Filipus said:
I don't think this is a good thing for the industry but I certainly don't think ARM will die at the hands of Nvidia. I really thing if anything it just boosted the chance we actually see a big change in the PC same in the next 10 years maybe. Right now I don't see 86x going anywhere for Windows computers but everything else? Full ARM 100%

There are already Windows laptops you can buy with ARM CPUs. There are still some missing pieces for it to fully take over, but I expect it will continue to slowly creep up the product stack as those are addressed.

Xando · Sep 14, 2020

DrDeckard said:
where are these figures from? I knew Nvidia were growing at an alarming rate, but topping intel?

Just checked the net worth..insane! What the eff

Their datacenter business is up 167% since last year and now bigger than gaming.

DrDeckard · Sep 14, 2020

Xando said:
Their datacenter business is up 167% since last year and now bigger than gaming.

Mental

SiG · Sep 14, 2020

Pokemaniac said:
While there is definitely emulation available, it's pretty slow, and at least Windows lacks the ability to emulate x64 binaries. As the performance gets better, so will the emulation performance, though.

Native app support, at least on Windows (Linux already has fairly robust support thanks to open source, and Mac developers are about to make the transition if they want to or not).

Do you think they will move to making ARM chips that run x86/64 code natively? Or will they simply use the penetration into marketshare to force developers into adopting ARM code natively into their software?

Deleted member 22630 · Sep 14, 2020

SiG said:
Do you think they will move to making ARM chips that run x86/64 code natively? Or will they simply use the penetration into marketshare to force developers into adopting ARM code natively into their software?

ARM and x64 are different ISA so they can't run each other's software natively without porting. Software developers aren't going to bother porting x64 to (or writing in (optimizations for)) ARM until the money is there so yes, relevant market share penetration is necessary.

Jegriva · Sep 14, 2020

WHOA. Megaton.

I didn't even know NVidia was so big, I thought ARM would have bought them, instead.

Deleted member 22630 · Sep 14, 2020

Jegriva said:
WHOA. Megaton.

I didn't even know NVidia was so big, I thought ARM would have bought them, instead.

You can thank investors believing ML/AI is a magic money printer for that.

Wilf Netherton · Sep 14, 2020

I would say nVidia has been slowly taking over the world but honestly it hasn't been slow at all

Deleted member 22630 · Sep 14, 2020

Wilf Netherton said:
I would say nVidia has been slowly taking over the world but honestly it hasn't been slow at all

It most certainly has not, it's been what less than 5 years. Whenever the ML/AI Boom happened. Cuda's been around longer but it took a few years for it too hit critical mass.

Sidewinder · Sep 14, 2020

Aww yiss, the world needs more mega corps, please buy me too Nvidia!!1

Filipus · Sep 14, 2020

Pokemaniac said:
There are already Windows laptops you can buy with ARM CPUs. There are still some missing pieces for it to fully take over, but I expect it will continue to slowly creep up the product stack as those are addressed.

I mean, with those devices their biggest complain was the compatibility issues. ARM still has a bunch of catching up to do when it comes to running Windows and the apps that people normally use properly. But yes, I think a slow creep is exactly what will happen and we will only see big changes in a few years.

Pokemaniac · Sep 14, 2020

SiG said:
Do you think they will move to making ARM chips that run x86/64 code natively? Or will they simply use the penetration into marketshare to force developers into adopting ARM code natively into their software?

It's been attempted (that was the original intent behind Nvidia's Denver CPU architecture, which their current Carmel cores are based on), but licensing would be complicated, and the resulting CPUs can end up pretty weird. It would be much easier and simpler all around to just get developers on board for new software, and beef up the emulation support in software for older things that aren't actively maintained anymore.

Deleted member 22630 · Sep 14, 2020

As for x64 emulation, some patents need to expire before that can happen so that's part of what's holding it back. Before anyone gets excited new stuff tends to be added and patented, so it's not as simple as a waiting game. Mind you the newer stuff that tends to be added tends not to be stuff consumers care about and not even most businesses.

ArchedThunder · Sep 14, 2020

I had no idea Nvidia even had that kind of cash.
Will be interesting to see how this affects Nintendo going forward.

Noppie · Sep 14, 2020

So, as someone with little knowledge in this. What does this actially mean for Nvidia, it's partners and competitors?

Henrar · Sep 14, 2020

Apocrypha said:
As for x64 emulation, some patents need to expire before that can happen so that's part of what's holding it back. Before anyone gets excited new stuff tends to be added and patented, so it's not as simple as a waiting game. Mind you the newer stuff that tends to be added tends not to be stuff consumers care about and not even most businesses.

Apple already has a translation layer running for x64 and it translates most of the x86 instruction set, outside of AVX family.

ArchedThunder · Sep 14, 2020

Noppie said:
So, as someone with little knowledge in this. What does this actially mean for Nvidia, it's partners and competitors?

Nvidia will have a whole new revenue stream, they will have their fingers in every phone on the market, and now they can design their mobile GPUs in tandem with ARM CPUs, which will be very beneficial for companies like Nintendo.

janoGX · Sep 14, 2020

Quick reminder that the Switch already uses an ARM CPU. And the GBA... And the DS... And the 3DS...

But now that ARM is part of NVIDIA, the integration will be even stronger on the next Switch, and the deals, easier since they're now directly negotiating with NVIDIA for everything. Wouldn't be surprised if the next Switch uses Tegra Orin (which is Ampere based) + ARM Cortex-A78

Princess Bubblegum · Sep 14, 2020

shinken said:
They are 1/3 bigger than intel, 3+ times bigger than AMD, 3x bigger than Sony and 1/3 smaller than Samsung.

Nvidia - $300b
Intel - $200b
AMD - $90b
Sony - $97b
Samsung - $400b

They are not that company that only makes PC videocards. They are huge.

*eyebrow raise* What are the metrics being used here?

eonden · Sep 14, 2020

SapphiCine said:
*eyebrow raise* What are the metrics being used here?

Market cap, aka the total value of the company in the stock market. If you are surprised about Sony value, don't. They were bloated for years and have just in the last 5 years started to turn around (and even then only dominate 1 field on B2C, that being gaming).

Deleted member 22630 · Sep 14, 2020

Henrar said:
Apple already has a translation layer running for x64 and it translates most of the x86 instruction set, outside of AVX family.

Thank you for reminding me, I believe some instructions were set to expire this year, before their products hit market. Which I believe if I am remembering correctly was the issue before this year. I think I was getting my instructions and years confused.

Wilf Netherton · Sep 14, 2020

Noppie said:
So, as someone with little knowledge in this. What does this actially mean for Nvidia, it's partners and competitors?

For one, nVidia now owns ARM's patents, patents which are foundational to a huge cohort of chip designs. ARM has always focused on low-power chip space (meaning, low power consumption, not "bad performance"). They were a natural fit for the smartphone industry in its infancy and they absolutely dominate that space now.

Noppie · Sep 14, 2020

ArchedThunder said:
Nvidia will have a whole new revenue stream, they will have their fingers in every phone on the market, and now they can design their mobile GPUs in tandem with ARM CPUs, which will be very beneficial for companies like Nintendo.

Wilf Netherton said:
For one, nVidia now owns ARM's patents, patents which are foundational to a huge cohort of chip designs. ARM has always focused on low-power chip space (meaning, low power consumption, not "bad performance"). They were a natural fit for the smartphone industry in its infancy and they absolutely dominate that space now.

Thank you!

Princess Bubblegum · Sep 14, 2020

eonden said:
Market cap, aka the total value of the company in the stock market. If you are surprised about Sony value, don't. They were bloated for years and have just in the last 5 years started to turn around (and even then only dominate 1 field on B2C, that being gaming).

Ah, stock market business isn't something I'm well versed in.

Deleted member 37917 · Sep 14, 2020

Time to accept that job at Nvidia lol

Atolm · Sep 14, 2020

With 21,5 in stock it sounds more like a merger doesn't it? I mean, those shares go straight to SoftBank.

Deleted member 8688 · Sep 14, 2020

borat said:
anyone else remember anti-trust laws? what happened to them?

US government wouldn't have a problem with consolidating control of all significant CPU design in the US. UK government doesn't care because it's too stupid.

Xando · Sep 14, 2020

Atolm said:
With 21,5 in stock it sounds more like a merger doesn't it? I mean, those shares go straight to SoftBank.

21.5 billion is like 7% which is pretty standard in cash + stock takeover

LordRuyn · Sep 14, 2020

Shit, I do not like this news at all. The EU Commission will not like this either I bet.
What the hell happened to anti-trust laws?

Samanyolu · Sep 14, 2020

Feels like Softbank got swindled lol. They got like 13 billion in cash and 21 billion in NVidia stocks, but NVidia is at an all time high right now.. That's like 8%. I remember when Softbank offloaded like 5% NVidia stock for 4 billion just last year.

tyfon · Sep 14, 2020

Time for everyone to move over to RISC-V lol
I don't see how this can be good for anyone but nvidia

Xando · Sep 14, 2020

LordRuyn said:
Shit, I do not like this news at all. The EU Commission will not like this either I bet.
What the hell happened to anti-trust laws?

I see people posting this every few posts in this thread but what actual anti trust laws does Nvidia break here?

Zephy · Sep 14, 2020

shinken said:
They are 1/3 bigger than intel, 3+ times bigger than AMD, 3x bigger than Sony and 1/3 smaller than Samsung.

Nvidia - $300b
Intel - $200b
AMD - $90b
Sony - $97b
Samsung - $400b

They are not that company that only makes PC videocards. They are huge.

Wait they are three times bigger than the entirety of Sony ? Sony that makes phones, TVs, cameras, consoles, computers and movies ? How did this happen.

eonden · Sep 14, 2020

Zephyriel said:
Wait they are three times bigger than the entirety of Sony ? Sony that makes phones, TVs, cameras, consoles, computers and movies ? How did this happen.

Sony makes a ton of things but doesnt lead in any market outside of consoles (and in selling their camera lenses to competitors), while being significantly bloated in some aspects. Nvidia leads in general computing and has made big inroots on segments such as servers that will potentially continue growing in the next years.

twdnewh · Sep 14, 2020

Amazing acquisition by nVidia. This will accelerate their R&D efforts with ML/AI.

Midas · Sep 14, 2020

Haha, if there's one thing I regret? Selling my Nvidia shares at around $200.

Spish! · Sep 14, 2020

Zephyriel said:
Wait they are three times bigger than the entirety of Sony ? Sony that makes phones, TVs, cameras, consoles, computers and movies ? How did this happen.

Stonks. Market cap isn't the same as size or assets.

Xando · Sep 14, 2020

Zephyriel said:
Wait they are three times bigger than the entirety of Sony ? Sony that makes phones, TVs, cameras, consoles, computers and movies ? How did this happen.

Sony is a old world company and has that valuation, Nvidia is a new world company with huge potential and has that valuation

Pancakes R Us · Sep 14, 2020

Damn. That's a crazy amount.

Readler · Sep 14, 2020

I really really can't understand how people are cheering Nvidia for this, this is terrible.

KTroopA · Sep 14, 2020

nice one UK :)

welcome Skynet.. im not going to mention this is 2020 and plans for Judgement day - but like everything else its probably just delayed.

Hermii · Sep 14, 2020

pg2g said:
Nothing, tegra is already ARM based

Well it means Nvidia now has access to every arm license, which means they no longer have to take licensing fees into consideration when choosing what cpu to use for the next tegra.

dgrdsv · Sep 14, 2020

tyfon said:
Time for everyone to move over to RISC-V lol
I don't see how this can be good for anyone but nvidia

Why would something which a company payed 40B for be "good for anyone but this company"?
I honestly don't understand some takes here.
Yes, this is primarily to the benefit of NV and they have payed an insane amount of money for this. Now they have to make sure that this investment will actually result in similarly huge profits.

As for the rest of the industry and consumers - Arm's reference SoC designs will likely get a much better GPUs in them which will help everyone out there in competing with Apple's and Qualcomm's own GPUs. This is an obvious benefit for consumers.
Using Arm ecosystem for AI devices will put a lot more pressure on Intel and AMD server platforms which will also be to the benefit of consumers eventually.
NV won't enter PC market with any chips - but if someone will be willing to build a PC out of Arm's reference SoC design such PC will have a good GPU now too which is a plus in competition against x86 PC market.
Otherwise not much will change in the mid term.

Bonejack · Sep 14, 2020

Well this is going to be interesting at least.

danlher said:
I read that Nvidia is paying 12 billion in cash.

Use coins?

Ok, i would DIE to be able to see this.

Sean Mirrsen · Sep 14, 2020

Readler said:
I really really can't understand how people are cheering Nvidia for this, this is terrible.

What I can't understand is how people are just hollering in terror of yet another company acquisition, and failing to see all the benefits and advancements it might lead to for the fear of "but what if they ruin everything". There's no tech company I'd rather have buy ARM than Nvidia, who have all the tech necessary to really propel it forward, and for whom it's merely diversifying their reach rather than consolidating a hold on a market segment they already occupy. And all current ARM users still keep their licenses so no current contracts are affected, and all it will do is change the landscape moving forward - with many possible ways of changing it for the better rather than worse.

Spish! · Sep 14, 2020

dgrdsv said:
Why would something which a company payed 40B for be "good for anyone but this company"?
I honestly don't understand some takes here.
Yes, this is primarily to the benefit of NV and they have payed an insane amount of money for this. Now they have to make sure that this investment will actually result in similarly huge profits.

As for the rest of the industry and consumers - Arm's reference SoC designs will likely get a much better GPUs in them which will help everyone out there in competing with Apple's and Qualcomm's own GPUs. This is an obvious benefit for consumers.
Using Arm ecosystem for AI devices will put a lot more pressure on Intel and AMD server platforms which will also be to the benefit of consumers eventually.
NV won't enter PC market with any chips - but if someone will be willing to build a PC out of Arm's reference SoC design such PC will have a good GPU now too which is a plus in competition against x86 PC market.
Otherwise not much will change in the mid term.

You really think Nvidia will license GPU IP using the ARM model when it makes so much in unit sales of chips?

tyfon · Sep 14, 2020

dgrdsv said:
Why would something which a company payed 40B for be "good for anyone but this company"?
I honestly don't understand some takes here.
Yes, this is primarily to the benefit of NV and they have payed an insane amount of money for this. Now they have to make sure that this investment will actually result in similarly huge profits.

As for the rest of the industry and consumers - Arm's reference SoC designs will likely get a much better GPUs in them which will help everyone out there in competing with Apple's and Qualcomm's own GPUs. This is an obvious benefit for consumers.
Using Arm ecosystem for AI devices will put a lot more pressure on Intel and AMD server platforms which will also be to the benefit of consumers eventually.
NV won't enter PC market with any chips - but if someone will be willing to build a PC out of Arm's reference SoC design such PC will have a good GPU now too which is a plus in competition against x86 PC market.
Otherwise not much will change in the mid term.

The biggest issue is that nvidia will most likely squeeze out all the competing GPUs like Mali which in turn will limit choice, innovation/performance and increase prices for consumers.

Nvidia buys ARM for 40 billion

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