It really made no sense buying a 2070 when you could get a 1080Ti cheaper
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NVIDIA announces Crypto Mining Processor series, GeForce RTX 3060 driver will limit mining performance
- Thread starter alphacat
- Start date
It really made no sense buying a 2070 when you could get a 1080Ti cheaper
Rewriting history is exactly what you are doing here.
1080Ti=2080
1080=2070
2060 has actually beaten all 10 series cards at launch.
The only card which had a clear disadvantage was 2080Ti. My condolences to those who still can't divide model names from their lineup positions.
They haven't done either. Turing would have been selling in more or less the same fashion as Pascal was if not the mining crash flooding the second hand market. And it did in fact once the mining cards were all off ebay and such. Again, all the data is there.
Second hand one. Which is exactly what I'm saying.
A new 1080Ti was $700. A new 2070 was $500-600.
Rewriting history is exactly what you are doing here.
1080Ti=2080
1080=2070
2060 has actually beaten all 10 series cards at launch.
The only card which had a clear disadvantage was 2080Ti. My condolences to those who still can't divide model names from their lineup positions.
They haven't done either. Turing would have been selling in more or less the same fashion as Pascal was if not the mining crash flooding the second hand market. And it did in fact once the mining cards were all off ebay and such. Again, all the data is there.
Second hand one. Which is exactly what I'm saying.
A new 1080Ti was $700. A new 2070 was $500-600.
I think you are both right about the 20 series. The cards weren't as bad a value proposition as people thought they were, but nonetheless the general sentiment I saw expressed by PC gamers is that they would just sit tight on their 10 series cards waiting for the 30 series launch. Little did they know what a shit show that would be. I know that I didn't see any of the 20 series cards as a worthwhile upgrade for the money for my 1080. Rightly or wrongly the 20 series cards were viewed as a bad value proposition.
Sure because as I've said 20 series had about the same perf/price as 10 series. So unless you were interested in new features there were no immediate reason to upgrade from 10 to 20 series. This isn't the same as saying that "cards got fucking slammed for being baby steps over the previous cards yet they cost nearly twice as much". They didn't cost anywhere "twice as much" as they did in fact cost about the same for similar performance and they weren't slammed for that at all. Rewriting history and all.
The point is that if it wasn't for the flood of used mining cards circa 1H19 Turing cards would be selling about the same as Pascal cards were in 17 - since they had basically the same price per performance. The used market Pascal flood pushed Nv's 2019 revenue down hard however which was further hit by the disappearance of mining demand around the same time. And this is what they are trying to avoid this time by pushing out mining onto mining products.
^^^ Qs there are financial ones with 2019 Q3 being Aug-Oct 2018 and the next two Qs are Nov-Jan 2019 and Feb-Apr 2019.
It basically took them a year to recover from the last mining craze.
Sure because as I've said 20 series had about the same perf/price as 10 series. So unless you were interested in new features there were no immediate reason to upgrade from 10 to 20 series. This isn't the same as saying that "cards got fucking slammed for being baby steps over the previous cards yet they cost nearly twice as much". They didn't cost anywhere "twice as much" as they did in fact cost about the same for similar performance and they weren't slammed for that at all. Rewriting history and all.
The point is that if it wasn't for the flood of used mining cards circa 1H19 Turing cards would be selling about the same as Pascal cards were in 17 - since they had basically the same price per performance. The used market Pascal flood pushed Nv's 2019 revenue down hard however which was further hit by the disappearance of mining demand around the same time. And this is what they are trying to avoid this time by pushing out mining onto mining products.
^^^ Qs there are financial ones with 2019 Q3 being Aug-Oct 2018 and the next two Qs are Nov-Jan 2019 and Feb-Apr 2019.
It basically took them a year to recover from the last mining craze.
Alternatively the 20 series was a huge flop among PC gamers and there just wasn't much enthusiasm for the cards unless someone just had to play one of the few games with RTX or DLSS 2.0. Sometimes a company just makes an unappealing product line up. If you are right though Steam user statistics should back you up by showing a surge of 10 series cards that steadily appeared on the market for some time after the 20 series launch. Those cards would not have previously been in game machines and would have continued to build the 10 series user numbers up after the 20 series launched if your theory is correct. If this was the case I never heard anyone talk about it.
I would expect to see more 1080s/1080tis if cheap mining cards were the reason for the 20xx series underperforming. In fact, I seriously regret not snagging a 1080ti myself when they dropped to $400 used, before the current debacle.
The xx60 is Nvidia's workhorse and it wouldn't have been as affected by the mining mania. So that tells me that people just weren't impressed by the value proposition of the 20xx series. And there was a thread here with the same sentiment.
And we might be about due for the next series after prices finally come back down from orbit, which is going to be weird.
AMD is finally back in the game. So it's hard to say how that arms race will play out, but I can imagine they are in no hurry until the silicon shortage starts to let up.
Huh? The 2060 barely beat the 1070ti lmao. And loses to the 1080/ti variants. Moving away from the 2060 and above makes the pricing for each card look significantly worse. On average it was about ~28% more performance for 40% more on price. Which is really bad considering it was new architecture. There are countless reviews from the time saying how the new cards weren't worth the price markup because there was like 2 games that supported those features at the time. Even now there's only a couple dozen games with ray tracing. The main selling point of the 3xxx cards is DLSS (which was awful at the time of 2xxx launch) and the fact they weren't launched at crazy prices.Rewriting history is exactly what you are doing here.
1080Ti=2080
1080=2070
2060 has actually beaten all 10 series cards at launch.
The only card which had a clear disadvantage was 2080Ti. My condolences to those who still can't divide model names from their lineup positions.
They haven't done either. Turing would have been selling in more or less the same fashion as Pascal was if not the mining crash flooding the second hand market. And it did in fact once the mining cards were all off ebay and such. Again, all the data is there.
Eh, a lot of PC gamers were firmly on the "wait-for-the-next-card" train. The performance gains didn't quite feel worth it at the time and DLSS/ RT wasn't really adopted. So sure it wasn't "twice as much" but it was also not as exciting a product - which was Skittle's point.
I can relate. I had 1080Ti so for me entire RTX20 lineup was totally forgettable. 2080Ti was just overpriced and felt "meh". Not enough raster performance increase over 1080Ti and first gen raytracing performance was also underwhelming.
Value wasn't the problem for the 20-series, it was the lack of a significant performance boost outside of the 2080Ti, which was so freakin' expensive. Unless you really wanted RTX, there was no point in upgrading. I already had a 1080, and moved to a 2080, which was kind of silly at the time, but I'm glad I got a 2080 now lol. I can at least stay sort of current until more new cards are available.
The problem with that theory is that Nv was still selling 20 series up until 30 series launch which is for about two years while the financial issues lasted for about three quarters. So a "huge flop" has somehow become a success and it happened directly after the period of mining hangover of early 2019. I wonder why...
I've quite literally given you a graph on pricing from one of reviews. You can take it up with TPU if you has something which proves your point.
His point was that it cost twice as much - which it didn't.
Also his point was that it didn't sell because it cost twice as much and not because of post-mining wave of used Pascal cards - which it also didn't as can be seen from revenue graphs which went back up during the lifespan of 20 series just fine.
Now the only real option which marries "costing twice as much" and "Turing sucked lol" points is the one I'm talking about: Turing did cost twice as much as comparable Pascal cards *on the used market after the mining collapse of 2018*. And this is exactly what Nv is trying to avoid with this new mining wave.
Barely beating the 1070Ti means it was on par with a 1080. Once games started taking advantage of Turing it consistently beat the 1080 too. Not that I disagree with you that Turing was too expensive for what it offered.
I have both a 2060 and 1080 and they're neck and neck...with the 2060 getting the advantage due to tensor cores and lower energy consumption.
You are hyperfocused on the "twice as much" when this:
"If you have issues selling current stock while your past stuff is on the shelves, then you released either a bad and/or an overpriced product. In that case, nvidia did both. There was also barely any games that could actually take advantage of rtx features for like a year. So those features were going to waste and not driving adaption."
seems to be his bigger point in the discussion.
I've already replied to this "point" with enough evidence to prove that it's factually wrong. Bigger and all.
There is steam user data showing significant 10 series user growth long after the 20 series launched? Without showing such growth after the 20 series launched there's not really a case to be made that used mining cards had any impact on 20 series sales.
I've provided enough data which backs up what I'm claiming.
If you want to make a counter point you're free to dig into the Steam stats.
I'm not entirely sure that Steam stats would be that indicative here as I'd expect many if not most cards used for mining to actually register there at some point prior to being resold after the market crash but whatever - you may be right.
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 and GeForce RTX 2070 Sales Lower Than Expected, Gaming Revenue Down 45% - Crypto and Excess Channel Inventory Also To Blame
NVIDIA has released their financials for Q4 FY2019 which report a huge decline in gaming revenue and poor sales of GeForce RTX 20 cards.
www.google.com
??
I'm going to be generous and give the 3060 a week before we're back to this mess.
Did you even bother to open your own link? Read what it says there.NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 and GeForce RTX 2070 Sales Lower Than Expected, Gaming Revenue Down 45% - Crypto and Excess Channel Inventory Also To Blame
NVIDIA has released their financials for Q4 FY2019 which report a huge decline in gaming revenue and poor sales of GeForce RTX 20 cards.
??
"There are also other factors and much of that has to do with the GeForce RTX cards and their main highlight, the RTX feature. First of all, we should look at the prices of GeForce RTX 20 series cards which are highest in their graphics segment. The other thing is the performance increase per gen which is also lower than what previous generations had to offer. If we look at Pascal, the GeForce GTX 1070 and GeForce GTX 1080 gave users a lot of reason to upgrade and weren't priced out of range of the mainstream audience. The GTX 1080 Ti was the king of the hill for a full 2 years and had a price of just $699 US."
"The current situation is completely different. NVIDIA is offering the GTX 1080 successor for the price of a GTX 1080 Ti which offers around the same performance of the previous flagship at $699 US. Same can be said for the RTX 2070 which exceeds the performance of a GTX 1080 but costs the same at $499 US. The GeForce RTX 2060costs $349 US and that's about the same as the GTX 1070 but here, it does offer somewhat better performance."
"The GeForce RTX 2080 TI remains the king of the hill just like every other NVIDIA flagship part but costs twice as much as the GTX 1080 Ti if you are going for a custom flavored card. Overall, the price margin has gone really out of place with the GeForce RTX lineup and following is a generational breakdown of graphics segments from NVIDIA over the last couple of years."
Almost like people weren't seeing a good performance increase for the price and would rather have waited.
I'm not sure anymore what is the argument here but the initial reaction to RTX cards was indeed negative, Nvidia says it quite clearly
nvidianews.nvidia.com
NVIDIA Updates Financial Guidance for Fourth Quarter of Fiscal Year 2019
NVIDIA today updated its financial guidance for the fourth quarter of fiscal year 2019, reflecting weaker than forecasted sales of its Gaming and Datacenter platforms.
nvidianews.nvidia.com
I've already posted a graph on this. You can either look at the data or read whatever WTFTech is writing, your choice.
As I've said and shown, Turing sales were fine as soon as the market has burned through the excess of 2nd hand Pascal h/w sold by miners after the crash. They were just as fine as Pascal's prior to previous mining wave which alone makes all the cries about the prices completely bogus.
That argument is whether this fact which you've posted was due to the effect of post-mining 2nd hand sales on the market or the actual issues with Turing positioning, with the latter being backed by such strong arguments as "Turing price was twice that of Pascal".
Or you could go look at what Nvidia said literally right above you. I'm not sure how the cries about the price were bogus to anyone except fans of the company.
EDIT: Also the selective quoting to try and make sure you come out sounding right is played out. You took a piece of hyperbole from another poster and tried to make it the thrust of their argument and keep ignoring that Nvidia, several gamers here, and media outlets all saw the 2000 series underperform because at the initial showing the value simply wasn't as strong as it'd previously been.
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I did look at what Nvidia "said literally", in contrast to you reading whatever bullshit WCFTech made up to get clicks.
It's not hard, what Nvidia has said is actually quoted there. Go read it.
In addition, sales of certain high-end GPUs using NVIDIA's new Turing™ architecture were lower than expected. These products deliver a revolutionary leap in performance and innovation with real-time ray tracing and AI, but some customers may have delayed their purchase while waiting for lower price points and further demonstrations of RTX technology in actual games.
Man what are you talking about?
Now couple this to the fact that Turing had the exact same price points as Pascal before that and you'll arrive to one obvious conclusion: Turing was fighting against used market sales.
I thought it would be obvious now since I'm repeating myself for a third time.
Mmhmm, yep. Anything so that your favorite company made no missteps.
Sure, looking at data instead of repeating false rumors ad nauseum means that it's "my favorite company" not making a misstep. Solid logic there mate.
Well, that dream didn't last long.
www.tomshardware.com
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
This will continue to be a rough year...Well, that dream didn't last long.
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
Eh, Eth is crabbing around 1.5-1.6k, i don't know if miners will rush to buy a 3060 right now, scalpers 100% will though.Well, that dream didn't last long.
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
There is also the stim checks probably coming, once uncle joe signs it, people will rush to buy a GPU, scalpers know people will be happy to pay the mark up.
I always figured scalpers and gamers trying to get the GPU would be the biggest issue. Even without mining chip shortage and tariffs means these gpus are going to be rare and expensive unless you get lucky.
I'm surprised Ethereum mining is still profitable.Well, that dream didn't last long.
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
Is that a good ROI?Well, that dream didn't last long.
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
All this damage just to make nonsense internet money that can only be used to buy drugs and child porn. This species doesn't stand a chance
For a card that's supposed to limit mining, yes. They will sell like the rest of the cards.
That's expected. They halved the hash rate but it's still able to mine.Well, that dream didn't last long.
Despite Nvidia's Anti-Mining Lock, RTX 3060 Can Still Earn Up To $7 a Day Mining
Is it all just a complicated PR stunt?
The idea behind this is to make the card's price/mining worse than that of a dedicated CMP/HX lineup based on Turing chips. They've essentially made Ampere perform similarly to Turing in mining.
Cryptominers have already cracked Nvidia's RTX 3060 hash rate limiter
That certainly didn't take long
Cryptominers have already cracked Nvidia's RTX 3060 hash rate limiter
That certainly didn't take longwww.techradar.com
Damn who could have seen that happening?
The PS5 thing was fake, though I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up happening.
I wasn't believing that this would end in 2021, but looks like it might take longer into 2022
Oh, my bad.
All this price hiking happened with the 10xx series already. But not to this extend I believe. Also I cant remember how long it took before prices went back to normal then.
I am more concerned though that all of this will lead to permanently raised prices.
Manufacturers see that people pay those ridiculous prices so why not raise prices with the next series?!
