Nvidia’s GeForce Now is losing all Activision Blizzard games, a bad sign for cloud gaming (see threadmark for Nvidia statement)

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

Walken said:
As their request? Sounds like they don't like NVidia generating income off of their games. I'm not sure how xCloud shares its revenue.

Nvidia is generating revenue off people paying for virtual machines. You quite literally have to own the games to play them. You can't purchase them through a NVIDIA store that shares revenue on every purchase.

Additionally, the Blizzard client states you can't play the games through streaming services, so while I doubt it is a "we want a cut of your revenue" kind of thing, it is probably more so wanting to ensure the legality of it and or ensuring the integrity of the games themselves.

ThreepwoodMighty · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
Nvidia is generating revenue off people paying for virtual machines. You quite literally have to own the games to play them. You can't purchase them through a NVIDIA store that shares revenue on every purchase.

Additionally, the Blizzard client states you can't play the games through streaming services, so while I doubt it is a "we want a cut of your revenue" kind of thing, it is probably more so wanting to ensure the legality of it and or ensuring the integrity of the games themselves.

So how will Microsoft solve this? A big "fuck you", we own Xbox. If you want your games on our system, you have to agree having them in the cloud as well?

LewieP · Feb 12, 2020

ThreepwoodMighty said:
So how will Microsoft solve this? A big "fuck you", we own Xbox. If you want your games on our system, you have to agree having them in the cloud as well?

I suspect they use more of a carrot approach. Won't be mandatory, but will be encouraged.

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

JiyuuTenshi said:
That's the exact use case here as well though. It's not like Nvidia is just putting a game online and allows everyone to access it, the user has to have a license to use this particular game already. The license agreement here is not between Nvidia and the game's publisher, it's between the publisher, Steam, and the end user. All Nvidia does is installing Steam on a VM.

They're not publishing anything on GeForce Now though, they publish on Steam, EPG etc.

Nvidia does have terms with Steam and the other pc platforms, who in turn have licenses with each publisher. So who's to day the way the Nvidia is using their 3rd party access rights runs afoul of publishers individual agreements with the pc platforms.

Iron Eddie · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
Nvidia is generating revenue off people paying for virtual machines. You quite literally have to own the games to play them. You can't purchase them through a NVIDIA store that shares revenue on every purchase.

Additionally, the Blizzard client states you can't play the games through streaming services, so while I doubt it is a "we want a cut of your revenue" kind of thing, it is probably more so wanting to ensure the legality of it and or ensuring the integrity of the games themselves.

Do you think Blizzard has a plan of their own to stream games or made a deal with Microsoft and xCloud?

Deleted member 10234 · Feb 12, 2020

ghostcrew said:
It might be grey area, but I'm not at all surprised that big pubs would say, ummm, please don't charge people to stream our games without doing a license deal with us.

I am not surprised either, doesn't mean I have to like it.

JiyuuTenshi · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
Nvidia does have terms with Steam and the other pc platforms, who in turn have licenses with each publisher. So who's to day the way the Nvidia is using their 3rd party access rights runs afoul of publishers individual agreements with the pc platforms.

Nvidia doesn't have any 3rd party access to Steam or the games. You log into your own Steam account and install and play your own games.

It's basically the same as if you'd rent a server somewhere and install Steam on it which you can do without any restrictions.

Chamon · Feb 12, 2020

LewieP said:
We are talking about Nvidia removing support for Activision games from Geforce Now. Very likely happened because Activision requested Nvidia remove support, a request that Nvidia complied with.

Lol! Ok, I don't know what else to say, we must be living in different universes. Have a nice day!

MykhellMikado · Feb 12, 2020

Walken said:
Do you think Blizzard has a plan of their own to stream games or made a deal with Microsoft and xCloud?

streaming exclusivity could be the new money hatting approach

collige · Feb 12, 2020

Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

CurseVox · Feb 12, 2020

collige said:
Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

This is where I'm at. Why do they even need permission to give people the option who already own said games to stream them and play as they wish?

ThreepwoodMighty · Feb 12, 2020

collige said:
Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

It's not any different. You can still use Parsec, Nvidia, Shadow and Steam remote play. Being able to play the games we bought on other computers shouldn't be publishers concern.

LewieP · Feb 12, 2020

CurseVox said:
This is where I'm at. Why do they even need permission to give people the option who already own said games to stream them and play as they wish?

Not sure who you think owns these games, but it's not people who bought licenses to play them, with a bunch of restrictions attached.

CurseVox · Feb 12, 2020

Once I own the game why do they care? They got their money already..

MykhellMikado · Feb 12, 2020

ThreepwoodMighty said:
It's not any different. You can still use Parsec, Nvidia, Shadow and Steam remote play. Being able to play the games we bought on other computers shouldn't be publishers concern.

It may be an issue if Nvidia using them in their marketing. If they did so without permission then Blizzarrd could have legal grounds. The removal may be part of precautions on both parties in case they find a way to sue.

but I thought it was already established this was because the remote session were being detected as cheating mechanisms or bots or something

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

ThreepwoodMighty said:
So how will Microsoft solve this? A big "fuck you", we own Xbox. If you want your games on our system, you have to agree having them in the cloud as well?

Well, let us look at the language of the EULA that Blizzard has set up.

Cloud Computing: Use the Platform, including a Game, in connection with any unauthorized third-party "cloud computing" services, "cloud gaming" services, or any software or service designed to enable the unauthorized streaming or transmission of Game content from a third-party server to any device.

Nvidia most likely had permission (or didn't) to have ActiBlizzard titles playable on their Geforce Now service while it was in beta. We can gather that Nvidia also reached out to publishers / devs to ensure their games were still good to be played via the streaming service.

Any agreement between them most likely stated that they were an authorized third party for the beta period, but not during the launch period, or a clause stating that they can revoke authorization at anytime.

Microsoft's xCloud would most likely be treated as an authorized third party service, IF ActiBlizz granted that authorization.

Walken said:
Do you think Blizzard has a plan of their own to stream games or made a deal with Microsoft and xCloud?

My list of logical theories behind these decisions is as follows

Authorization for Geforce Now was revoked due to
- Concerns that streaming online MP games could create false positives of the anti-cheat for technical reasons.
- Nvidia did not secure authorization from ActiBlizz to support the games after the beta had concluded and the full service launched.
ActiBlizz have or will have an existing contract with another game streaming service provider that prevents title(s) from being streamed.
ActiBlizz have or will have their own streaming service and without authorization to Geforce Now, any person(s) would be violating their EULA (which means that both parties are simply enforcing and protecting players from being banned).

Lastly, we have the whole "they want a cut of the revenue"

This could very well be the case. Authorization might require money exchanging hands.

collige said:
Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

CurseVox said:
This is where I'm at. Why do they even need permission to give people the option who already own said games to stream them and play as they wish?

ThreepwoodMighty said:
It's not any different. You can still use Parsec, Nvidia, Shadow and Steam remote play. Being able to play the games we bought on other computers shouldn't be publishers concern.

Please see the EULA for Blizzard's platform, Section C, article 5.

Cloud Computing: Use the Platform, including a Game, in connection with any unauthorized third-party "cloud computing" services, "cloud gaming" services, or any software or service designed to enable the unauthorized streaming or transmission of Game content from a third-party server to any device.

If those streaming services allow Blizzard games to be streamed, it is because they are authorized, or ActiBlizzard hasn't enforced their EULA.

empyrean2k · Feb 12, 2020

collige said:
Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

im not sure anyone really knows (outside Activision Blizzard and Nvidia) why. I think it may be due to Nvidia caching the game files on their service so they are available to users without having to download the games? Complete guess mind. There might also be no legal reason as to why they need to ask permission and may instead be more of a political decision that they don't want to upset Activision Blizzard.

CurseVox · Feb 12, 2020

Damn. Section C, article 5. That must have been the part I glazed over. :P
I guess that's that though. Pretty cut and dry.

RoninStrife · Feb 12, 2020

Aesthet1c said:
I have a feeling that cloud gaming is going to be like movie/TV streaming, where every company is going to want their slice of the pie and try to release their own cloud gaming service. Hopefully Nvidia can work out some deals to get these publishers back.

This. This. This. This.
Or.. money hat exclusives. Want to play Fifa on the cloud? Pay for PSNow.
Want to play Madden? Cough up for Xcloud.
Im sure it could get worse.. Imagine paying to launch your game first on a certain streaming platform first. Play Fifa exclusive to a streaming "partner" service (Xcloud or PS Now) and get a week early access from official release date. ETC.

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

JiyuuTenshi said:
Nvidia doesn't have any 3rd party access to Steam or the games. You log into your own Steam account and install and play your own games.

It's basically the same as if you'd rent a server somewhere and install Steam on it which you can do without any restrictions.

If geoforce now is an app that allows you to link your steam account, then there is third party access.

It's not like you are logging into a virtual machine that is running a steam client that the user then logs into.

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

CurseVox said:
That must have been the part I glazed over.

You mean never read and scrolled to the part where you clicked the checkmark that says "I agree to the EULA" xd

CurseVox · Feb 12, 2020

RoninStrife said:
This. This. This. This.
Or.. money hat exclusives. Want to play Fifa on the cloud? Pay for PSNow.
Want to play Madden? Cough up for Xcloud.
Im sure it could get worse.. Imagine paying to launch your game first on a certain streaming platform first. Play Fifa exclusive to a streaming "partner" service (Xcloud or PS Now) and get a week early access from official release date. ETC.

Yeah this is going to get ugly. Why can't they all play nice and share? Everyone can have a little and all is right in the world.

collige · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
Please see the EULA for Blizzard's platform, Section C, article 5.

Nvidia isn't the end user in this case though, so the person on the hook for the violation would be the user though right? Like, if I were to use Apple Remote Desktop to stream Hearthstone remotely, Apple isn't violation any EULAs, I am.

Maybe the ease of use features involve them manually installing the game for you or something, that's why I was asking what the difference is. It would definitely affect their ability to advertise the games at least.

CurseVox · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
You mean never read and scrolled to the part where you clicked the checkmark that says "I agree to the EULA" xd

I do admit after that long stint in the summer of 2017 I took a break for awhile. I never really got back into it as I had to scale back on my hobbies. :D

RoninStrife · Feb 12, 2020

CurseVox said:
Yeah this is going to get ugly. Why can't they all play nice and share? Everyone can have a little and all is right in the world.

Yeah.. streaming is the start of a new arms race and I fear it may eventually take the whole industry down with it, every Publisher out for money at all cost.
It is partially why I'm scared of Gamepass.. it's great for consumers.. but MS is prepared to drop the ridiculous prices their paying publishers to have games on there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but millions to have DMC V on gamepass? How is that better than funding a new game being made instead?

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

collige said:
Nvidia isn't the end user in this case though, so the person on the hook for the violation would be the user though right? Like, if I were to use Apple Remote Desktop to stream Hearthstone remotely, Apple isn't violation any EULAs afaik.

Maybe the ease of use features involve them manually installing the game for you or something, that's why I was asking what the difference is. It would definitely affect their ability to advertise the games at least.

As stated here

any person(s) would be violating their EULA (which means that both parties are simply enforcing and protecting players from being banned).

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
If geoforce now is an app that allows you to link your steam account, then there is third party access.

It's not like you are logging into a virtual machine that is running a steam client that the user then logs into.

You are quite literally logging into a VM that is running the Steam Client that the user logs into.

There is also most likely third party access as well, given that Geforce Now checks to ensure you own the game on Steam.

collige · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
As stated here

That's still a guess though, I'm just unclear on what Nvidia is doing from a tech perspective that forces them to agree to the EULA since naively, they're not end users. In my above example, Blizzard has no way of knowing that I'm streaming the game in the first place.

Sedated · Feb 12, 2020

I kinda dont get how activision can choose to remove their games. In essence via geforce now people are renting pcs to play their own games so how do pubs get a say here

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

collige said:
Nvidia isn't the end user in this case though, so the person on the hook for the violation would be the user though right? Like, if I were to use Apple Remote Desktop to stream Hearthstone remotely, Apple isn't violation any EULAs afaik.

Maybe the ease of use features involve them manually installing the game for you or something, that's why I was asking what the difference is. It would definitely affect their ability to advertise the games at least.

collige said:
Maybe this has been explained, but I'm unclear why legally Nvidia needs to ask permission in the first place. How is GeForce now different from a glorified remote desktop client?

The differences are minute, but geoforceNow would fall under the 3rd party access agreements while remote desk top would not.

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

Sedated said:
I kinda dont get how activision can choose to remove their games. In essence via geforce now people are renting pcs to play their own games so how do pubs get a say here

Read above, where I explain that Nvidia is most likely looking out for end-users.

collige said:
That's still a guess though, I'm just unclear on what Nvidia is doing from a tech perspective that forces them to agree to the EULA since naively, they're not end users. In my above example, Blizzard has no way of knowing that I'm streaming the game in the first place.

They are probably attempting to avoid potential litigation from a collective of users who could've been banned because they didn't read the EULA, got identified by Blizzard, and had their access revoked.

Pargon · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
If geoforce now is an app that allows you to link your steam account, then there is third party access.
It's not like you are logging into a virtual machine that is running a steam client that the user then logs into.

No, that's literally what you're doing.

CurseVox said:
Once I own the game why do they care? They got their money already..

But what if they could make MORE MONEY from it?
Instead of selling you the game once, they could sell it to you and charge for streaming access.

Hobbes said:
ActiBlizz have or will have their own streaming service and without authorization to Geforce Now, any person(s) would be violating their EULA (which means that both parties are simply enforcing and protecting players from being banned).

Activision Blizzard are hardly "protecting players from being banned" by doing this when they are the ones that would be banning people.
If people are getting banned and NVIDIA were removing the games from the service temporarily until they could find out why it was happening, sure that makes sense. But Activision Blizzard told them they don't want the games to be available on GFN.

Deleted member 18944 · Feb 12, 2020

Pargon said:
But Activision Blizzard told them they don't want the games to be available on GFN.

Yeah, cause it violates their EULA, and GeForce isn't an authorized streaming service. Why they aren't one could be a plethora of reasons I went into.

What you highlighted was just one theory.

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

Pargon said:
No, that's literally what you're doing.

But what if they could make MORE MONEY from it?
Instead of selling you the game once, they could sell it to you and charge for streaming access.

Activision Blizzard are hardly "protecting players from being banned" by doing this when they are the ones that would be banning people.
If people are getting banned and NVIDIA were removing the games from the service temporarily until they could find out why it was happening, sure that makes sense. But Activision Blizzard told them they don't want the games to be available on GFN.

As far as I can tell You are logging into Steam via 3rd party access api, not opening a steam client on a virtual machine and logging directly into said client.

Pargon · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
As far as I can tell You are logging into Steam via 3rd party access api, not opening a steam client on a virtual machine and logging directly into said client.

Have you not used the service?
It opens up a Steam client and you have to install the game on the VM to play it.

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
You are quite literally logging into a VM that is running the Steam Client that the user logs into.

There is also most likely third party access as well, given that Geforce Now checks to ensure you own the game on Steam.

Why would Nvidia need to check to ensure that you own the game if the user is logging into a steam client? The steam client would already know you own the game.

Ripcord · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
As far as I can tell You are logging into Steam via 3rd party access api, not opening a steam client on a virtual machine and logging directly into said client.

It's opening a steam client on a virtual machine and I have to log into it when I use Geforce Now.

Acti/Blizzard being bullshit on this one. Geforce Now is a good idea but isn't going to make it if this becomes the standard.

JiyuuTenshi · Feb 12, 2020

Hobbes said:
There is also most likely third party access as well, given that Geforce Now checks to ensure you own the game on Steam.

They're not checking that at all. You can add any game to your GeForce Now library, it's just a shortcut to their VM and will launch Steam, but won't be able to launch the game itself of course.

The only thing they seem to be doing is restrict write permissions to your virtual C drive based on the game you're trying to install, because when you try to install an unsupported game Steam will try to download it, but fail to do so. There's nothing inside Steam itself preventing you from initiating the installation procedure.

In fact if you have another PC or server running Steam you can even use Steam Remote Play to stream unauthorized games from that Steam instance through GeForce Now. I just tried it by playing Life is Strange 2 on my PC at home. Aside from the additional latency due to the extended roundtrip it works flawlessly.

Trup1aya · Feb 12, 2020

Pargon said:
Have you not used the service?
It opens up a Steam client and you have to install the game on the VM to play it.

I'm just watching videos online. The dude opened up the application, linked his steam account, it then displayed the steam games he owns. When he opened the game I could see that the steam client opened, but he never had to install the game.

Jarate · Feb 12, 2020

If you guys are still interested in this type of Servie, and want to play your Blizzard games, you can try renting out a paperspace server and running a parsec server on both. The rate is hourly which is probably bad for most people, but, if you're really interested in cloud gaming with a cloud machine, that might be your best option now that legality is harming nvidia.

dgrdsv · Feb 12, 2020

Pargon said:
They are not granting access to games by linking accounts.
You are using your own Steam account on their servers. You actually log into Steam and install the games yourself.

That's from your perspective as a gamer. From ATVI's perspective their presence on the platform should bring in some revenue. Hence why I can see why they may not be okay with GFN's free tier currently.

Fisty · Feb 12, 2020

All you have to do is look at Seinfeld, The Office, and Friends to see how this streaming thing will end up. Everyone fights over the big ones with exclusivity deals until the content owner decides to make their own service

Dylan · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
I'm just watching videos online. The dude opened up the application, linked his steam account, it then displayed the steam games he owns. When he opened the game I could see that the steam client opened, but he never had to install the game.

Lol just try it out yourself, it's free.

Pargon · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
I'm just watching videos online. The dude opened up the application, linked his steam account, it then displayed the steam games he owns. When he opened the game I could see that the steam client opened, but he never had to install the game.

You don't link accounts, you log in.
They were probably logging into an existing VM. If it's already installed it launches the game directly (just as it does on your own PC).

dgrdsv said:
That's from your perspective as a gamer. From ATVI's perspective their presence on the platform should bring in some revenue. Hence why I can see why they may not be okay with GFN's free tier currently.

It's not "from my perspective" - that is what's happening.
But they obviously want to get some share of the revenue.

Duxxy3 · Feb 12, 2020

I have a feeling that Geforce Now could end up like Slingbox. A great idea that ran into a legal grey area.

sangreal · Feb 12, 2020

ThreepwoodMighty said:
So how will Microsoft solve this? A big "fuck you", we own Xbox. If you want your games on our system, you have to agree having them in the cloud as well?

Actually, their Publisher Agreement explicitly excludes a license for xcloud

11.5.2 Gameplay streaming and remote access feature
Subject to Section 9.4, unless the streaming and remote access feature is disabled, Publisher grants Microsoft a fully-paid, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual license to, solely as part of the gameplay streaming and remote access feature: (a) broadcast, transmit, distribute, host, publicly perform (subject to Section 11.13 below) and publicly display, reproduce, and streaming gameplay of a Software Title and (b) provide use, access and control of the gameplay on a Software Title on any platform or service on which Xbox Live is offered. Any Xbox Live cloud-based streaming game subscription and/or rental service is exempted from the obligations of this Subsection 11.5.2.

Gestault · Feb 12, 2020

As someone who owns a bunch of these, I'm left with a pretty hostile feeling toward Activision pulling things like Crash/Spyro, considering I own the licenses and I'm paying to remote-play on another service through my own Steam account.

The result is Activision's games being less worth buying digitally, at least as long as that streaming restriction is in place.

JiyuuTenshi · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
I'm just watching videos online. The dude opened up the application, linked his steam account, it then displayed the steam games he owns. When he opened the game I could see that the steam client opened, but he never had to install the game.

Which video is that because that's not at all how it works... You don't link your Steam account at all. The only account you log into inside the GeForce Now application is your Nvidia account.

JiyuuTenshi · Feb 12, 2020

Jarate said:
If you guys are still interested in this type of Servie, and want to play your Blizzard games, you can try renting out a paperspace server and running a parsec server on both. The rate is hourly which is probably bad for most people, but, if you're really interested in cloud gaming with a cloud machine, that might be your best option now that legality is harming nvidia.

Shadow is probably the better alternative for most for a pure cloud gaming system with a fixed monthly fee based on performance needs.

Gestault · Feb 12, 2020

Trup1aya said:
I'm just watching videos online. The dude opened up the application, linked his steam account, it then displayed the steam games he owns. When he opened the game I could see that the steam client opened, but he never had to install the game.

The first time you access a Steam game on Geforce Now, you definitely go through the install step. It goes through almost immediately, but it's a discrete step for each account on the virtual machine. After that, it starts up in later sessions as though it's already installed (which may have been what you saw in the video).

Nvidia’s GeForce Now is losing all Activision Blizzard games, a bad sign for cloud gaming (see threadmark for Nvidia statement)

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