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Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
They don't mention it is "perfectly safe". They do mention it is safe based on what they observe from the camps. And they also mention there are risks that they feel are outweighed by the benefits of going to school. Which I interpret that as them considering it safe enough, and not perfectly safe.

There is nothing to interpret in the below quote.

Onderwijs op school kan perfect veilig gebeuren, schrijven de kinderexperten, kijk maar naar de jeugdkampen van deze zomer.

"Education at school can be perfectly safe, write the experts, look at the summer camps."

The fact that they then go on to say there is a risk, doesn't mean it removes their earlier statement that it is 'perfectly safe'.

It is the 'perfectly safe' statement that I have a problem with. It is false and dangerous.
 

Prophet Steve

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,177
There is nothing to interpret in the below quote.



"Education at school can be perfectly safe, write the experts, look at the summer camps."

The fact that they then go on to say there is a risk, doesn't mean it removes their earlier statement that it is 'perfectly safe'.

It is the 'perfectly safe' statement that I have a problem with. It is false and dangerous.

I am sorry, I missed that part as I was focused on the similar text in the introduction of text. You are correct! I agree that it is irresponsible and contradictory to consider it perfectly safe while also mentioning it is not without risk.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
There is nothing to interpret in the below quote.

"Education at school can be perfectly safe, write the experts, look at the summer camps."

The fact that they then go on to say there is a risk, doesn't mean it removes their earlier statement that it is 'perfectly safe'.

It is the 'perfectly safe' statement that I have a problem with. It is false and dangerous.

There is two things to consider: first, you are quoting editorial text. That statement doesn't appear in the open letter. Second, you are losing meaning in the translation. They aren't trying to state it can't be "perfectly safe", they state it can perfectly be organized safely. It is more like stating there is nothing preventing from this being organized safely.
 

stew

Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,188
I don't know what the Netherlands are thinking, I feel bad for people trying to wear masks and socially distance, while most don't give a fuck (from what I read in this thread).
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,122
Chile
Haven't done this in a while, but since my mental health is a little bit better today, might as well as give an update

Chile August 12:

+ 1.540 new positives, 378.168 total, 422.089 with "probable" cases
+ 27 new deaths reported, total is in the 10.205 with PCR, 14.133 with diagnosed but no PCR
+19.348 new test reported, total is 1.908.964

There are 4.902 hospitalized as of today, 973 connected to a ventilator.

Situation has overall improved steadly, so we are reopening several places. Every expert says that it is still rushed to do this but well, you know how this thing goes. Some places want to bring kids to school again, others won't. The fact is that, in any case, people are kind of ignoring the covid. Streets are full, even in quarantine districts. Lots of fear of a "second" wave (as if the first one was ever controlled), but that won't stop people.

Myself, I've returned to everyday office since three weeks ago. Every day we are three in this small space, and the company has everyone coming so whatever can happen. Up until this point, I just wanted to be in my house, but I see myself in this desk everyday and how the fuck am I not allowed to visit two friends a single day but can be with two coworkers everyday in a closed space? Fuck this shit.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,016
I have another really stupid question for this thread: assuming a (legitimate) vaccine is at minimum a year away, what would it take (or have taken) for things to go back to normal-ish* and be safe? Like I'm talking in the US if Joe Biden was inagurated tomorrow and enacted change, what would it take? Is it just not feasible for things to ever go back before a vaccine? I know New Zealand was mostly COVID-free but had some cases pop up recently, but I don't really have a picture of if things went back to "normal" there.

*my definition of normal-ish would be things like being able to go to restaurants again, but possibly still wearing masks. Family gatherings would be okay. It might still mean activities like concerts are still out of the question though.

I figure no matter what the answer is, it's probably not going to happen in the US until after a vaccine is widely available (assuming we don't get even dumber bullshit than the anti-maskers and more people become anti-vaxxers suddenly) and we have a new Presidential administration.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
I have another really stupid question for this thread: assuming a (legitimate) vaccine is at minimum a year away, what would it take (or have taken) for things to go back to normal-ish* and be safe? Like I'm talking in the US if Joe Biden was inagurated tomorrow and enacted change, what would it take? Is it just not feasible for things to ever go back before a vaccine? I know New Zealand was mostly COVID-free but had some cases pop up recently, but I don't really have a picture of if things went back to "normal" there.

*my definition of normal-ish would be things like being able to go to restaurants again, but possibly still wearing masks. Family gatherings would be okay. It might still mean activities like concerts are still out of the question though.

I figure no matter what the answer is, it's probably not going to happen in the US until after a vaccine is widely available (assuming we don't get even dumber bullshit than the anti-maskers and more people become anti-vaxxers suddenly) and we have a new Presidential administration.
Strict measures for two months to drastically cut back community transmission, then limited measures like masks until vaccine spread.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
You can't federally enact strict lockdown measures. Certain cities/states just won't follow it or enforce it. Vaccine is the only way things improve in this country.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,016
Strict measures for two months to drastically cut back community transmission, then limited measures like masks until vaccine spread.
You can't federally effect strict lockdown measures. Certain cities/states just won't follow it or enforce it. Vaccine is the only way things improve in this country.
That makes sense, basically in an ideal world where people weren't stupid, we could be at a state of normal-ish by now. Thanks!
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,708
NJ Daily Numbers:

+484 new cases (185938 total)
+9 deaths (14046 total)

A couple important notes. The governor is signing an Executive Order today officially opening all schools for the fall semester. There are a couple caveats though.

1) Anyone who wants to learn remotely has to be accomodated and that includes the Free Lunch program
2) Masks are mandatory in all schools
3) If a school cannot meet the health and safety guidelines they must be 100% remote until they can meet them

EfPHmuQWsAIIKs_

EfPHpKcX0AMsKEg

EfPHxrWWsAAAfCh

EfPHyK8WkAEDeGH

EfPHysmWsAoUMv6
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,594
It still baffles me that Vegas is open... A 4k walking video of Vegas from a few weeks ago popped into my Youtube feed (been playing similar videos lately) and omg, MAYBE 40% of people were wearing masks, and most of them weren't even wearing them right, and everyone is crowded around walking or watch the Bellagio water show... It looks like nothing is even wrong over there, and I hate it! I love going to Vegas, but who knows when I can even go back when people are acting like that :/ It's such the opposite from the Bay Area where the rarity is to NOT see a person wear a mask in a public shopping/walking area... And being Vegas, you know that most people drove/flew in and will be heading back to wherever later...
 

El_TigroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,207
New York, NY
A couple important notes. The governor is signing an Executive Order today officially opening all schools for the fall semester. There are a couple caveats though.

1) Anyone who wants to learn remotely has to be accomodated and that includes the Free Lunch program
2) Masks are mandatory in all schools
3) If a school cannot meet the health and safety guidelines they must be 100% remote until they can meet them

Interesting approach Phil. Let's see what happens here... our city already called off school for the fall semester, I don't think they can reverse course now.

I look forward to the gym owners losing their minds further if they can't get same concessions of masks.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,517
So basically in NJ if a district is able to teach in person they also have to produce online classes too (because there will be students that do remote learning). Not particularly good news to my wife. There's already the stress of staying safe in the school and teaching students. Now she will have to design online classes too. That's a lot of extra work with nothing extra to help her out.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
My mom starts school next week in Florida. Her first class of the day has 42 students in it. Her classroom has 25 desks.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
I have another really stupid question for this thread: assuming a (legitimate) vaccine is at minimum a year away, what would it take (or have taken) for things to go back to normal-ish* and be safe? Like I'm talking in the US if Joe Biden was inagurated tomorrow and enacted change, what would it take? Is it just not feasible for things to ever go back before a vaccine? I know New Zealand was mostly COVID-free but had some cases pop up recently, but I don't really have a picture of if things went back to "normal" there.

*my definition of normal-ish would be things like being able to go to restaurants again, but possibly still wearing masks. Family gatherings would be okay. It might still mean activities like concerts are still out of the question though.

I figure no matter what the answer is, it's probably not going to happen in the US until after a vaccine is widely available (assuming we don't get even dumber bullshit than the anti-maskers and more people become anti-vaxxers suddenly) and we have a new Presidential administration.
A really good treatment option could help us make big strides toward normal before a vaccine can be widely distributed. Monoclonal antibodies seem to be the most promising so far, but they're still months away from being implemented and aren't the easiest thing to scale up in manufacturing.

Of course you can't exactly just open the floodgates on life as normal all at once even with a treatment because you could still overwhelm hospitals, but it would go a long way.
 

Beanman25

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
586
So, remember my oldest brother and his other half are throwing the insanely brainless maskless wedding this weekend. And they told us next week they are going to Mexico for a honey moon. NEXT week. :( They will never learn
 

Novoitus

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,139
my University finally decided to go 100% online this fall

i think it's only a couple days before some dorm move in dates
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,418
Phoenix, AZ
It still baffles me that Vegas is open... A 4k walking video of Vegas from a few weeks ago popped into my Youtube feed (been playing similar videos lately) and omg, MAYBE 40% of people were wearing masks, and most of them weren't even wearing them right, and everyone is crowded around walking or watch the Bellagio water show... It looks like nothing is even wrong over there, and I hate it! I love going to Vegas, but who knows when I can even go back when people are acting like that :/ It's such the opposite from the Bay Area where the rarity is to NOT see a person wear a mask in a public shopping/walking area... And being Vegas, you know that most people drove/flew in and will be heading back to wherever later...

Vegas (and Nevada at large) has no other economy other than tourism / hospitality unfortunately, and it needs to operate to basically sustain the entire state

Not to say they can't get better about enforcing masks. But, money above all else of course. You can't drink 24/7 and wear a mask.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Oh don't worry, the looming global climate catastrophes in our collective futures will make us look back at 2020 with rose tinted goggles reminiscing of the "good ol times when we could just hide from the nightmare".

This 10000% this. You think things are fucked now? Honestly 2020 will seem like Star Trek TNG peaceful times compared to what's to come. People will probably look back to WW2 with nostalgia as a time of relative 'peace'. Billions will die.

I think in our lives we're likely to see the results of the rise of fascism worldwide as well. Maybe not WW3, but definitely shitty future ahead. Enjoy these good times while they're here.
 

LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,567
So basically in NJ if a district is able to teach in person they also have to produce online classes too (because there will be students that do remote learning). Not particularly good news to my wife. There's already the stress of staying safe in the school and teaching students. Now she will have to design online classes too. That's a lot of extra work with nothing extra to help her out.
We're opening hybrid in my district and I will likely have students that are online only. I'm required to livestream my classes for at least 50% of the time due to Connecticut state mandate. Essentially what this means is I can't take advantage of the sort of things that I could do with in person learning, like a lot of discussion and maybe small group discussion (or at least talking to someone at the nearest 6 foot away desk), nor can I take advantage of any of the things I could do with distance learning, like letting the kids work on something in their own time or producing videos, etc. I'm basically doing distance learning in-person with none of the benefits. It's going to be... messy.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,708
This 10000% this. You think things are fucked now? Honestly 2020 will seem like Star Trek TNG peaceful times compared to what's to come. People will probably look back to WW2 with nostalgia as a time of relative 'peace'. Billions will die.

I think in our lives we're likely to see the results of the rise of fascism worldwide as well. Maybe not WW3, but definitely shitty future ahead. Enjoy these good times while they're here.
Please leave this kind of stuff for other threads.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
NJ Daily Numbers:

+484 new cases (185938 total)
+9 deaths (14046 total)

A couple important notes. The governor is signing an Executive Order today officially opening all schools for the fall semester. There are a couple caveats though.

1) Anyone who wants to learn remotely has to be accomodated and that includes the Free Lunch program
2) Masks are mandatory in all schools
3) If a school cannot meet the health and safety guidelines they must be 100% remote until they can meet them

EfPHmuQWsAIIKs_

EfPHpKcX0AMsKEg

EfPHxrWWsAAAfCh

EfPHyK8WkAEDeGH

EfPHysmWsAoUMv6

I admit I don't get it, and this is not specific to NJ but really generally. Once you demonstrate you can meet the health and safety standards, and then someone gets sick, then what? It sounds on the surface like it's safer to not meet the standards and be all-remote.

Constituents are going to need to start asking their states what the acceptable infection and casualty rates for schools are, separately for students and for staff, and whether those rates are projected to be higher than the state's current daily positivity averages. And when they do, they should ask their states to recall what other public places or businesses currently allow for 50% occupancy, but with hundreds to thousands assembling in one place.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,708
I admit I don't get it, and this is not specific to NJ but really generally. Once you demonstrate you can meet the health and safety standards, and then someone gets sick, then what? It sounds on the surface like it's safer to not meet the standards and be all-remote.

Constituents are going to need to start asking their states what the acceptable infection and casualty rates for schools are, separately for students and for staff, and whether those rates are projected to be higher than the state's current daily positivity averages. And when they do, they should ask their states to recall what other public places or businesses currently allow for 50% occupancy, but with hundreds to thousands assembling in one place.
Yeah...I don't know. The thing I keep coming back to is how badly low income children are getting screwed by this. If you are working class person and your young child is in remote school there is no one to stay on top of them. So basically kids where the gap was already enormous are now going to be a year behind because the well off families are hiring tutors to keep their kids up to speed.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,594
Vegas (and Nevada at large) has no other economy other than tourism / hospitality unfortunately, and it needs to operate to basically sustain the entire state

Not to say they can't get better about enforcing masks. But, money above all else of course. You can't drink 24/7 and wear a mask.

*sigh* It's just a tough thing, since it puts so many at risk. In the video, I only saw a handful of people with drinks in hands. Most people just weren't wearing a mask period :/
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
High school fall sports in CT is moving forward with modified schedules and tournaments. Despite college sports delaying to 2021, they voted after all to have sports with reduced schedules, citing the schools deciding to be open with hybrid models. Of course, the decision hinges on the standard disclaimer of the state of covid transmission. No bubbles.
 

DrM

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
Slovenia
Looks like schools won't reopen for all pupils in Slovenia at the beginning of September

A huge jump in positive cases in last week in category from 15-30 years old. Mostly imported from Croatia.
 

darkwing

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,942
in the Philippines, it is now required to have a face shield when riding public transport and also in workplaces/offices

no big deal for us
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,914
CT
High school fall sports in CT is moving forward with modified schedules and tournaments. Despite college sports delaying to 2021, they voted after all to have sports with reduced schedules, citing the schools deciding to be open with hybrid models. Of course, the decision hinges on the standard disclaimer of the state of covid transmission. No bubbles.

CT has been lucky due to a lack of covid cases in the state, but if we keep playing with fire we're gonna get burned badly :/
 

MarioW

PikPok
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,155
New Zealand
I have another really stupid question for this thread: assuming a (legitimate) vaccine is at minimum a year away, what would it take (or have taken) for things to go back to normal-ish* and be safe? Like I'm talking in the US if Joe Biden was inagurated tomorrow and enacted change, what would it take? Is it just not feasible for things to ever go back before a vaccine? I know New Zealand was mostly COVID-free but had some cases pop up recently, but I don't really have a picture of if things went back to "normal" there.

*my definition of normal-ish would be things like being able to go to restaurants again, but possibly still wearing masks. Family gatherings would be okay. It might still mean activities like concerts are still out of the question.

NZ mostly returned to normal. We have a strictly controlled border with incoming travelers in managed government quarantine, no real outward bound travel, and ongoing testing and monitoring. But outside of that, you wouldn't have noticed much difference from pre-COVID life. Bars, nightclubs, restaurants, sports etc have all been operating without restriction.

With the flare up this week, we've snapped back into widespread restrictions with different levels of lockdown depending on distance from the outbreak. The government is announcing a longer term plan to deal with this tomorrow after pursuing aggressive contact tracing, testing, and investigation in the last few days. For now, all new cases are related to a single cluster which is a good sign given the circumstances.

While we've had success here though, I'm not sure how how replicable it is by other countries. Our island geography helps control the border for sure, and our smaller size allows for a well coordinated national response, but it is really the attitude of the population that has helped make a difference. NZers have been willing to accept and follow government guidance and mostly adhere to restrictions for the common good. We've been willing to sacrifice to overcome the challenge. It took that to eliminate community transmission in order to allow things to get back to normal.

When I look at some other countries, porous borders, a lack of federal coordination, "freedom" protestors, and conspiracy theory prevalence in any combination are not going to allow for elimination much less a return to normalcy. A vaccine is going to be required before most countries can get there. Even then, anti vaccine sentiment threatens that being an effective solution.
 

Keio

Member
Nov 5, 2017
919
Finland introduced mask recommendation to public transport use/for places where you can't socially distance in regions where the numbers are getting worse. Also reinstituted recommendation for remote working. And allows local authorities to mandate quarantine for people returning from risk zones abroad.

A lot rides on people being able to act responsibly and with collective interest in mind. Genuinely curious to see what happens.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,708
I saw one article that said the Southern states are probably hitting peak positivity because almost all the wreckless people are either immune or dead/dying.

Granted no one knows how long immunity lasts.
Probably that plus a lot of people wised up based on how bad things are in their areas. You can only deny it until people you know start dying.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
That MIT review article is a bunch of takes from twitter and elsewhere that all require further analysis. They may prove to be correct at some point, but if you're making science-based decisions then you will want studies done and not just look at plateaus.

Meanwhile...



Now go on CT's daily briefing and discuss this.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,708
NJ Daily Numbers:

+699 new cases (186594 total)
+8 deaths (14054 total)

Another spike day but its not unexpected considering the reported rate of transmission was as high as 1.5 a week ago. Rate of transmission is still under 1 now so I'd expect the averages to start going down some time next week. Either way something to keep an eye on.

Rate of transmission is 0.92
545 people in hospitals
103 in ICU
28 on ventilators
 

cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,406
Are they counting the adjusted death totals many states have put out? I don't see any spikes in the graphs for states like NY/NJ who reported them after the fact.
Those were where the cause of death was revised to COVID?

Excess deaths are any quantities of deaths from all causes, above the expected historical average.
 

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,722
Hey all, need some advice,

My partner is suffering a potential medical emergency. We need to get xrays, CTs, etc at the ER. It's not covid related, and we definitely do NOT want to get covid while at the hospital. Any health and safety tips for going to a hospital? Thanks!
 
Nov 7, 2017
5,061
Hey all, need some advice,

My partner is suffering a potential medical emergency. We need to get xrays, CTs, etc at the ER. It's not covid related, and we definitely do NOT want to get covid while at the hospital. Any health and safety tips for going to a hospital? Thanks!
Wear a mask at all times
Stay at least 6 ft apart from people in the hospital if possible
Consider also wearing eye googles or face shield