Not #MeToo, I'm French

[Didyme]

This is part fake news, part dishonnestly framed.

Brigitte Lahaie never said that "women enjoy being raped". She said that "one can experiment orgasm during a rape" ("On peut jouir lors d'un viol"). She later explained that she wanted to underline the disconnect between the body and the soul.

 

[Didyme]

"100% of French women report being sexually harassed on public transportation" has also been debunked.

The "study" was realized by the Haut Conseil à l'égalité entre les femmes et les hommes with a "sample" of 60 women who participed in a meeting on the subject of "gender and public space". Hardly a scientific methodology. The Haut commissariat later admitted that it was not a real scientific study, but a "chiffre d'appel" (a bizarre expression which means that the number was constructed to appeal to emotions).

 

[Deleted member 45957]

Without ignoring the problem of sexism in France, this thread is click-baity and borderline fake news. In fact this is almost worst that the problem it tries to underline.
The #balancetonporc movement was quite important here and had quite an impact, but different cultures treat problems differently.
France as a mostly latin country indeed still has a long way to go with women equality, and this subject will keep being a challenge in the decades to come for every european countries with increasing immigration and cultural influence from Africa.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

cultural influence from Africa.

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What do you mean by that?

 

[Famassu]

"100% of French women report being sexually harassed on public transportation" has also been debunked.

The "study" was realized by the Haut Conseil à l'égalité entre les femmes et les hommes with a "sample" of 60 women who participed in a meeting on the subject of "gender and public space". Hardly a scientific methodology. The Haut commissariat later admitted that it was not a real scientific study, but a "chiffre d'appel" (a bizarre expression which means that the number was constructed to appeal to emotions).

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I mean, a poll of 60 people where 100% answer in a certain way isn't an insignificant number. I'd perhaps not make wide-sweeping statements about every French woman being harassed on public transportation, but I'd think it would warrant a closer look and maybe a wider-reaching poll.

 

[AlexMeloche]

From Canada here. I remember a few years ago going on a field trip in various cities in Germany. Men were literally barking (yes, like dogs) at some of the girls in our group. Even at our teacher sometimes. The girls were constantly being catcalled, and by any types of guys ; teens, seniors, etc.

 

[Bleu]

Fake news and manufactured outrage should not be tolerated and signal boosted just because it confirm our biases, if so then we are not better than racists aunts on facebook.

 

[Deleted member 46493]

100% of women harassed in public transport is believable. It's the same case here in NYC. If any New Yorkers ask the same questions to their female friends they'll get similar answers.

 

[Elandyll]

While there are no doubt huge problems with misoginy in France (as pretty much everywhere else), the piece the OP presents is also hugely problematic, because based on innacurate (at best) or outright false (at worst) data.

This is basically an opinion piece partially based on data that has been shown to be false due to its context.

https://www.france24.com/en/20150416-france-women-harassment-metro-transport-rights

When contacted by FRANCE 24, the HCEfh's spokeswoman contextualized the figures, providing information that was not included in the report. The group admitted that it did not hire a research institute, but instead calculated the statistics from a sample of 300 women who had all participated in a public consultation about women's roles in the public space and… harassment in public transport. This means that all of the women polled were already concerned by the subject in question.

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A group of Women picked among harrassed customers was asked if they had been harrassed.

100% said yes.

It is also to be noted that Brigitte Lahaie never said (contrarily to what the UK media circus pretended) that Women can enjoy being raped, but that it is possible for them to experience an orgasm during one (which caused her to be denounced by her "anti-Metoo" colleagues).

More context in a follow up interview by Le Point

https://www.lepoint.fr/societe/brig...mais-contre-l-homme-15-10-2018-2262992_23.php

 

[Deleted member 45957]

What do you mean by that?

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I mean that a lot of people immigrating from Africa come from significantly more patriarcal societies than latin countries, which are themselves more patriarcal than anglo-saxons and nordic countries.

 

[sbkodama]

I knew a Quebec guy who lived in France for a while and the impression he told me of was that the whole "land of romance" stuff is as ingrained into them as British exceptionalism or the American dream.

Every country has it's own fucked up cultural identiry gimmick that seems to block out any sort of critical thinking



I've seen that stat before.

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Romance is a little old fashioned, even if still in the background, you also need to look at after mai 68.


Also france is known to really enjoy things coming from japan, just saying.

 

[Didyme]

I mean, a poll of 60 people where 100% answer in a certain way isn't an insignificant number. I'd perhaps not make wide-sweeping statements about every French woman being harassed on public transportation, but I'd think it would warrant a closer look and maybe a wider-reaching poll.

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These 60 women were not randomly selected.

 

[mael]

Yeah that 100% figure sounds quite strange.
Not to sound in bad faith but what were the parameters of whatever survey that's from.
What did they define as Harassment?

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It isn't.
Come visit France for a month or so and you'll see.

 

[mael]

"100% of French women report being sexually harassed on public transportation" has also been debunked.

The "study" was realized by the Haut Conseil à l'égalité entre les femmes et les hommes with a "sample" of 60 women who participed in a meeting on the subject of "gender and public space". Hardly a scientific methodology. The Haut commissariat later admitted that it was not a real scientific study, but a "chiffre d'appel" (a bizarre expression which means that the number was constructed to appeal to emotions).

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The idea behind this was to focus attention on this problem.
It's very very real and the situation in the Paris subway for example is nearing critical.
To say it has been debunked like the situation is really fine is misleading at best.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

Are the stereotypes of French and Italian men harassing and catcalling tourists remotely true? See this a lot on movies, but never thought it was this big of a problem.

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I'd say that the Romance language countries in general have it as a general stereotype.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I mean that a lot of people immigrating from Africa come from significantly more patriarcal societies than latin countries, which are themselves more patriarcal than anglo-saxons and nordic countries.

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Lol wut???

 

[HyperFerret]

Women have enough trouble discussing sexist problems without misleading statistics.

 

[mael]

Lol wut???

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It's BS too, you have a lot of middle aged men ogling girls and shit.
30 something in a tux on a way to work that hound a 14yo about how he would do things to her and how she remind him of her daughter is a meme with how common it is.

 

[mael]

Women have enough trouble discussing sexist problems without misleading statistics.

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You don't even have discussions of sexist problems WITHOUT the statistics.
You think Saint Cyr being a misogynistic hell hole was by accident?

 

[HyperFerret]

You don't even have discussions of sexist problems WITHOUT the statistics.
You think Saint Cyr being a misogynistic hell hole was by accident?

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I'm sorry. I don't know much about France, I don't know what that is.

 

[mael]

I'm sorry. I don't know much about France, I don't know what that is.

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It's THE military school of Napoleon's fame.
If you want a career in the military it is THE place to go.
It's also the center of a scandal a few years back where women were visibly harassed (sexually and otherwise) to force them to quit.
The hierarchy of the school was in on the harassment.
Another of the literal hundreds of examples I could have used off the top of my head.

 

[Didyme]

To say it has been debunked like the situation is really fine is misleading at best.

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Where did I say that the situation is fine ?

Did you not understand that what is debunked is the pretense of scientific accuracy of the 100% number announced by the Haut commissariat ?

Do you think that misleading "statistics" from a public body is a good policy in regard to real and important issue ? I fear personnally that it alas gives credit to the opinion that this is mere propaganda.

 

[mael]

Where did I say that the situation is fine ?

Did you not understand that what is debunked is the pretense of scientific accuracy of the 100% number announced by the Haut commissariat ?

Do you think that misleading "statistics" from a public body is a good policy in regard to real and important issue ? I fear personnally that it alas gives credit to the opinion that this is mere propaganda.

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That is bullshit and you know it.
The report was never claimed as scientific in the 1st place but as a focus point to put some urgency on this long ignored problem.
The authorities do not even properly handle rape cases as we know there is a huge number of cases that don't even go beyond the police hearing about the situation and discouraging the victim in seeking justice.
Heck the very reason DSK wasn't able to avoid consequence THAT ONE TIME was because it didn't happen in France.
The guy basically had a dedicated brothel that fed on misery, he was known for a creep for a looooooooooooooong time to the point that the guy wasn't to be left alone with a woman (and that was public knowledge) and you STILL had a large portion of the population stanning for him until his career fell on him.
Even if you had ironclad statistic, you would still have the same problem.
And by some chance you end up in a situation where you have a guy that is held dead to right, he just has to mumble sorry once or twice and people will fall over themselves to claim that the case is closed and we shouldn't held people accountable too much.

 

[Didyme]

That is bullshit and you know it.
The report was never claimed as scientific in the 1st place but as a focus point to put some urgency on this long ignored problem.
The authorities do not even properly handle rape cases as we know there is a huge number of cases that don't even go beyond the police hearing about the situation and discouraging the victim in seeking justice.
Heck the very reason DSK wasn't able to avoid consequence THAT ONE TIME was because it didn't happen in France.
The guy basically had a dedicated brothel that fed on misery, he was known for a creep for a looooooooooooooong time to the point that the guy wasn't to be left alone with a woman (and that was public knowledge) and you STILL had a large portion of the population stanning for him until his career fell on him.
Even if you had ironclad statistic, you would still have the same problem.
And by some chance you end up in a situation where you have a guy that is held dead to right, he just has to mumble sorry once or twice and people will fall over themselves to claim that the case is closed and we shouldn't held people accountable too much.

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I was in the courthouse to see the man who raped my three year old daughter walk free. Do you really think that I am unaware of the issue ?

I do not want the help of someone like you in this fight. If you think that real statistics are not significant and that you must invent some bullshit numbers to convince people, you are a detriment to this cause.

I will now ignore you.

 

[mael]

I was in the courthouse to see the man who raped my three year old daughter walk free. Do you really think that I am unaware of the issue ?

I do not want the help of someone like you in this fight. If you think that real statistics are not significant and that you must invent some bullshit numbers to convince people, you are a detriment to this cause.

I will now ignore you.

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I am NOT saying the numbers are scientific or anything.
They serve a purpose, the purpose is to start a conversation about sexual assault in France.
That discussion is not happening otherwise.
We know, it has been tried already and it failed times and again.
It is disingenuous to claim that this number is reason for the problem to be ignored because it's already being ignored for decades anyway.
ANY AND ALL EXCUSES IN THE BOOKS ARE ALREADY IN PLAY TO IGNORE THE PROBLEM.
By focusing on that number you're ignoring a hell of a lot of problems, if you're think you're helping man that bridge you've been sold must be great.

Your presence in this thread has only been to minimize the problem, excuse me if I don't expect your help in solving this issue regardless of your personal life.
One would think that with the personal experience you claim to have you would have a word or 2 about the fuckups of the justice system....
But nah, the important part is to make sure everyone knows that women being harassed in public transportation is not as bad as it looks.

 

[Skyebaron]

Rape can be enjoyed? That dosent make sense.

 

[BlackGoku03]

I've been to France maybe 3 dozen times or more... never took public transportation so I never saw this. But I did see a lot of cat-calling. And theft.

I was in the courthouse to see the man who raped my three year old daughter walk free. Do you really think that I am unaware of the issue ?

I do not want the help of someone like you in this fight. If you think that real statistics are not significant and that you must invent some bullshit numbers to convince people, you are a detriment to this cause.

I will now ignore you.

Click to shrink...

Holy FUCK man. My heart goes out to you and you're family. Holy shit holy shit that's bad. I'd have to... ugh nvm. Sorry man.

 

[KillLaCam]

I'm so confused

 

[Goodlifr]

Wow, very ignorant of me, never really knew this about France.

We tend to spend about 4 weeks or so there a year, in pretty much all different parts and never noticed it, at all, to be honest.

 

[Novel]

100% of French women report harassment on public transportation. Fuck me, that's depressing.

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I'm not French but it's a common stereotype I hear of women facing in public transport.

 

[Deleted member 28461]

I'm not French but it's a common stereotype I hear of women facing in public transport.

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Oh yeah, I hear horror stories about women on public transportation from every country. Definitely not singling out France on this. It's just the fact that it's 100% that upsets me.

 

[Novel]

Oh yeah, I hear horror stories about women on public transportation from every country. Definitely not singling out France on this. It's just the fact that it's 100% that upsets me.

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Ah, I meant I hear it of France specifically for some reason.
Don't want to test to find out. Glad I don't have to take public transport here in the states, tbh.

 

[Samara]

Rape can be enjoyed? That dosent make sense.

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Men are known to ejaculate after being raped/sodomized.

Push the right button and the body does not care what you think.

 

[Assenzio]

The idea behind this was to focus attention on this problem.
It's very very real and the situation in the Paris subway for example is nearing critical.
To say it has been debunked like the situation is really fine is misleading at best.

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they chose 60 women that went there to talk about the issue.

The data is debunked, not the issue. That public transports are dangerous for women it's true in every country.

 

[Assenzio]

Rape can be enjoyed? That dosent make sense.

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She said have an orgasm.

It was an essay on how the body and the soul are disconnected. That's scientific I am afraid, even in extreme conditions if men and women are sexually stimulated they react accordingly.

I would not certainly call it pleasure

 

[Deleted member 11637]

Toxic masculinity is an epidemic in the US, but at least it's now a public conversation. France has a long way to go with regard to defining consent.

On the subject of sexual mores, Netflix's Marseille -- I can only hope it's an outlier, as I don't watch any French scripted TV -- is fucking nuts. The first episode features one of the leads remarking to his secretary, "You'd be pretty if you dressed up more," (at which the secretary swoons) and a girl is, casually, almost raped by her best friend, and the next day she's all, "Oh, you!"

 

[mael]

they chose 60 women that went there to talk about the issue.

The data is debunked, not the issue. That public transports are dangerous for women it's true in every country.

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It is not an issue of debunking or not.
public transportation being unsafe for women is nothing new in the west, it is especially bad in Paris.
We do need a better data point to more correctly assess the situation.
Nevertheless there is legislation in France regarding sexual assault and even catcalling in the public sphere.
Clearly the issue is not the law by itself (then again when you see that statutory rape wasn't a thing a couple years ago...).
The application of the law however is downright miserable.
Police forces that will pressure victims to drop charges, public pressure on women when they even think of opening up their mouth about a sexism issue; victims of sexual harassment having to change jobs in nearly all cases over the harasser who just has minor inconveniences.
Looking at the whole picture the statistic might as well be true.

 

[Deleted member 6949]

Now I'm picturing everyone in France as Pepé Le Pew.

 

[Assenzio]

It is not an issue of debunking or not.
public transportation being unsafe for women is nothing new in the west, it is especially bad in Paris.
We do need a better data point to more correctly assess the situation.
Nevertheless there is legislation in France regarding sexual assault and even catcalling in the public sphere.
Clearly the issue is not the law by itself (then again when you see that statutory rape wasn't a thing a couple years ago...).
The application of the law however is downright miserable.
Police forces that will pressure victims to drop charges, public pressure on women when they even think of opening up their mouth about a sexism issue; victims of sexual harassment having to change jobs in nearly all cases over the harasser who just has minor inconveniences.
Looking at the whole picture the statistic might as well be true.

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It's important to have a believable and correct data to fight the issue.

100% is clearly made up. We both know that number is unfortunately very high, but we should avoid tabloid rubbish like this because it moves the focus from the issue itself to the credibility of the fact.

In short we need serious and helpful study for the fight, not random and cheap shit made and written for views. This is a serious issue, simply now that it's high does not excuse a random number.

And I cannot stress this enough the culture is what it is, but I seriously doubt that in western Europe the numbers are noticeable higher that in north America. That's is just assuming something because of a different culture.

 

[mael]

It's important to have a believable and correct data to fight the issue.

100% is clearly made up. We both know that number is unfortunately very high, but we should avoid tabloid rubbish like this because it moves the focus from the issue itself to the credibility of the fact.

In short we need serious and helpful study for the fight, not random and cheap shit made and written for views. This is a serious issue, simply now that it's high does not excuse a random number.

And I cannot stress this enough the culture is what it is, but I seriously doubt that in western Europe the numbers are noticeable higher that in north America. That's is just assuming something because of a different culture.

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Again the statistic is not made up, it just represent a slanted sample.
Otherwise you are saying that the people who answered the poll are lying which I'm pretty sure isn't the case.
The statistic is flawed and useless in a broad discussion but not made up.

The culture in France being what it is, the problem is always passed over other "more urgent" matters or punted in a racist manner ('it's these african savages doing all the raping').
This statistic is a jumping point to start a discussion, nothing else.
We have enough information to point out that there is a major problem in how men behave in France and that discussion needs to happen.
Regardless of what you think about this starting point of the discussion, it is not happening otherwise.
We know it was tried before.

In France we're still in the phase where victims of abuse are routinely sued for defamation and statutes of limitation protect harasser who will suffer no consequences.

 

[Elandyll]

Again the statistic is not made up, it just represent a slanted sample.
Otherwise you are saying that the people who answered the poll are lying which I'm pretty sure isn't the case.
The statistic is flawed and useless in a broad discussion but not made up.

The culture in France being what it is, the problem is always passed over other "more urgent" matters or punted in a racist manner ('it's these african savages doing all the raping').
This statistic is a jumping point to start a discussion, nothing else.
We have enough information to point out that there is a major problem in how men behave in France and that discussion needs to happen.
Regardless of what you think about this starting point of the discussion, it is not happening otherwise.
We know it was tried before.

In France we're still in the phase where victims of abuse are routinely sued for defamation and statutes of limitation protect harasser who will suffer no consequences.

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If you have a group that was created from a specific criteria, and then poll that group or a supposed representative sample of it to determine how many in said group match the criteria they were already created from for, then yes, the statistics is 100% (in this case) bullshit.

 

[mael]

If you have a group that was created from a specific criteria, and then poll that group or a supposed representative sample of it to determine how many in said group match the criteria they were already created from for, then yes, the statistics is 100% (in this case) bullshit.

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No, the statistic represent the pannel, nothing more nothing less.
The statistic being bullshit would be me saying that 63% of car drivers pass over without signaling based on nothing.
Both data points are useless but only one is bullshit.

and you're gonna ignore the rampant sexism and oppressive behavior toward victims just like that?
Or you're maybe waiting for a "real" survey to be done to show that something must be done maybe?

 

[RedSparrows]

Actually I am a dolt, ignore me.

 

[Elandyll]

No, the statistic represent the pannel, nothing more nothing less.
The statistic being bullshit would be me saying that 63% of car drivers pass over without signaling based on nothing.
Both data points are useless but only one is bullshit.

and you're gonna ignore the rampant sexism and oppressive behavior toward victims just like that?
Or you're maybe waiting for a "real" survey to be done to show that something must be done maybe?

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Did you even read what I posted earlier?
The committee basically admitted the stastic was meaningless due to the sampling method.

For a real discussion to occur (and obviously one is needed, and not just in France), if one has to use statistics they should actually be real statistics instead of made up.

 

[mael]

Did you even read what I posted earlier?
The committee basically admitted the stastic was meaningless due to the sampling method.

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Yes but they didn't invent the statistic,
it's meaningless but not BS.
There is a distinction.

For a real discussion to occur (and obviously one is needed, and not just in France), if one has to use statistics they should actually be real statistics instead of made up.

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The statistic is meaningless but not made up, the panel did exist and the poll represent that panel.
To claim it is made up means that either the panel does not exist or that the poll does not represent the panel.
And your real discussion is never happening if you're waiting for real ironclad data considering the nature of the beast being chased.
In the mean time, victims of sexual harassment are still chased out of their jobs and anyone accusing a public figure ends up with a defamation lawsuit.
Hope that's worth it to wait to have that discussion.

 

[Reeks]

People using the word "debunked" as if it's part of the scientific vernacular. Haha that's not how data interpretation works. Way to derail, folks.

 

[Assenzio]

No, the statistic represent the pannel, nothing more nothing less.
The statistic being bullshit would be me saying that 63% of car drivers pass over without signaling based on nothing.
Both data points are useless but only one is bullshit.

and you're gonna ignore the rampant sexism and oppressive behavior toward victims just like that?
Or you're maybe waiting for a "real" survey to be done to show that something must be done maybe?

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I am not sure you understand this, the committee called for harrassed women and then asked the question.

It's like saying that I call for harrassed men and then say 100% of men have been molested.

Does not male much sense

The statistic is made up because they did not precise that, they pretended was a normal stat with random women.

That is not even a data, it's not a survey, it's just a confirmation that they chose the women they needed for study.

I do not understand why this is so difficult or hard to get.

They lied. If they said from the start what the data was it would have been completely fine, but they gave us a vague 100% with no explanation which was clearly ambiguous on porpoise.

Instead of being reliefed it's like you are fighting to demonstrate how bad is in France , which has the same sexual harassment levels of any other western country. Still disgustingly high, but not higher than anybody

 

[Didyme]

Now I'm picturing everyone in France as Pepé Le Pew.

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This is probably the intended purpose of this podcast, which is inflammatory and gallophobic.

 

[Skade]

I've been to France maybe 3 dozen times or more... never took public transportation so I never saw this. But I did see a lot of cat-calling. And theft.

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Theft is only predominant in big touristic places (and centered around Paris) because tourists are easy prey. Outside of that, the occurences are probably similiar to any other developped countries. It's just that there is such high concentration of tourits in our country that thieves and scammers flock to them in huge numbers.

As for cat-calling, i haven't seen it happen much myself but it does indeed happen quite a lot. Most of my colleagues have horror stories about late metro ride harrassing and stuff like being followed by creeps for several minutes, shit like that. Quite depressing.

 

[Wackamole]

French men just woke up and realized they were living in a dumbass fantasy. No, you're not a womanizer. Just a clueless molestor in a country where they have tolerated that stupid behavior for far too long.

This is not just in France though.

CAt calling is the dumbest thing today.
We have kids in our country doing that the entire time (especially Maroccan boys/ men are hardheaded in this). But it's forbidden now. It's just as dumb as honking at a woman. No sex or relationship ever came from that.