Noname (rapper) asks new white followers to leave if they won't provide resources, including inevitable seizure of family estate/assets

[Deffers]

Explain how anarcho communist nations will deal with global warming.

I will even allow EVERY nation in the world immediately becoming anarcho communism instead of one nation emerging as an anarchy and being crushed by all other states.

Will wait for your explanation so I can learn more.

Click to shrink...

Bookchin covered this back in the Eighties (actually covering global warming in specific). Anprims are the extreme end of the ecological anarchist movement, and the works of Bookchin in particular went on to inspire a functioning autonomous zone in Rojava that managed to stand up to ISIS for quite some time (before a certain someone abandoned them).

But this is kind of irrelevant to the point that the subject of reparations doesn't even need to go that far to be relevant and that people kneejerking about it with "MY PROPERTY" will always be super suspicious.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.

Click to shrink...

The "I don't need to explain X to you" worked better as an argument as when it took an emotional toll on the person.

Arguing that you don't need to explain how anarcho communism (a philosophy with zero traction or track record) will deal with pollution seems to be a questionable move.

How many people who aren't extremely online support anarcho communism. Is it in the thousands.

 

[Mekanos]

The "I don't need to explain X to you" worked better as an argument as when it took an emotional toll on the person.

Arguing that you don't need to explain how anarcho communism (a philosophy with zero traction or track record) will deal with pollution seems to be a questionable move.

How many people who aren't extremely online support anarcho communism. Is it in the thousands.

Click to shrink...

Literally you start out with a strawman of anarcho-communism, how else am I supposed to respond? Do you think the theory behind anarcho-communism is "the state is gone but everything else is the same?" It would require a massive restructuring and redistribution of how we imagine our society and resources.

Start with this:

An Anarchist Solution to Global Warming

Peter Gelderloos An Anarchist Solution to Global Warming 2010

theanarchistlibrary.org

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

why are you trying to police the way a black woman can talk about police brutality and white supremacy?

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I'm saying I disagree with her idea and giving her the most generous possible understanding of her comments is little eye-rolling to me when she will take the most negative interpretation of anyone who believes that the state should exist with her attacking black activists who aren't communists as elites who love cops.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

The "I don't need to explain X to you" worked better as an argument as when it took an emotional toll on the person.

Arguing that you don't need to explain how anarcho communism (a philosophy with zero traction or track record) will deal with pollution seems to be a questionable move.

How many people who aren't extremely online support anarcho communism. Is it in the thousands.

Click to shrink...

No one said that they didn't need to explain it to you, they said you didn't want to actually listen or engage from a position of good faith. Seems like they were right tbh.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I'm saying I disagree with her idea and giving her the most generous possible understanding of her comments is little eye-rolling to me when she will take the most negative interpretation of anyone who believes that the state should exist with her attacking black activists who aren't communists as elites who love cops.

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Uh...no that's not why she attacked that suggestion, she attacked it because it's ineffective. As evidence by the fact that those suggestions have been implemented by some of the most notorious PD's in the country and it did fuckall.

Could you be anymore disingenuous?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Literally you start out with a strawman of anarcho-communism, how else am I supposed to respond? Do you think the theory behind anarcho-communism is "the state is gone but everything else is the same?" It would require a massive restructuring and redistribution of how we imagine our society and resources.

Start with this:

An Anarchist Solution to Global Warming

Peter Gelderloos An Anarchist Solution to Global Warming 2010

theanarchistlibrary.org

Click to shrink...

Have to say that this is just a great start to an essay.

"

• 
  
• Medical science is infused with a hatred of the body, and though it has perfected effective response to symptoms, it is damaging to our health as currently practiced."

Moving on...

Okay so I don't think this article makes any mention of how fossil fuel burning would be banned?

Because that's the whole point of why we use gas, it's way cheaper and more convenient than the alternatives.

So what body of people or peoples would regulate fossil fuels so they couldn't be used?

Would this be a state-like body?

 

[Deleted member 25600]

The "I don't need to explain X to you" worked better as an argument as when it took an emotional toll on the person.

Arguing that you don't need to explain how anarcho communism (a philosophy with zero traction or track record) will deal with pollution seems to be a questionable move.

How many people who aren't extremely online support anarcho communism. Is it in the thousands.

Click to shrink...

Even a cursory glance of anarchist philosophy would show you that human production would be motivated by need rather than by profit. Given that the profit motivation of production causes massive resource waste and overproduction, by default production according to need would cause pollution to drop substantially.

This isn't even taking purposeful action against climate change. It's a byproduct of shifting economic priorities.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Even a cursory grlance of anarchist philosophy would show you that human production would be motivated by need rather than by profit. Given that the profit motivation of production causes massive resource waste and overproduction, by default production according to need would cause pollution to drop substantially.

This isn't even taking purposeful action against climate change. It's a byproduct of shifting economic priorities.

Click to shrink...

Okay so fossil fuels are currently cheaper and more convenient than other fuels when fossil fuels are already established. What non-state body would ensure that fossil fuels were banned?

 

[Mekanos]

• Medical science is infused with a hatred of the body, and though it has perfected effective response to symptoms, it is damaging to our health as currently practiced.

Click to shrink...

This is what I mean when you say you aren't willing to listen lol

Modern medical science is damaging in so many ways despite its advancements, and often is racist and colonialist in nature

If you want more discussion with anarchists on this topic and anarchist literature, there's always the socialism OT!

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

This is what I mean when you say you aren't willing to listen lol

Modern medical science is damaging in so many ways despite its advancements, and often is racist and colonialist in nature

If you want more discussion with anarchists on this topic and anarchist literature, there's always the socialism OT!

Click to shrink...

"It is damaging to our health as currently practiced" is... absolutely not the case.

If you want to argue something other than the article actually wrote, it's probably not a good sign for the article.

 

[Deleted member 42484]

I'm a white guy who is pretty poor, sometimes I feel like all I can do is show my support over social media and stuff. It feels so limp, but I don't have any money to donate to these causes. I wish I did.

I'm kind of confused how I am supposed to interpret this tweet. Is this meant for people like me or is this really meant for rich elites. I'm a little confused if I'm being honest, the whole thing is kind of flying way over my head.

 

[Deffers]

"It is damaging to our health as currently practiced" is... absolutely not the case.

If you want to argue something other than the article actually wrote, it's probably not a good sign for the article.

Click to shrink...

Medicine is absolutely damaging to the health of black bodies and lives as it is currently practiced. You are dead wrong. The fact that you want to tear down your imagined boogeyman of what that statement means instead of admitting the reality we find ourselves in right now is bad.

This (thankfully) ties back to the actual topic of the thread. This knee jerk defense of property and the status quo over black lives? This attempt to derail to talk about anarcho-communism instead of reparations? This attempt to excuse the people who made the worst possible read of noname's posts as correct? The attempt to downplay the modern medical industry's systematic destruction of black bodies? Is not a good look.

 

[Madison]

"It is damaging to our health as currently practiced" is... absolutely not the case.

Click to shrink...

tell that to trans and gender non conforming people that are prescribed a dangerously low amount of estrogen producers due to transphobic concerns ("you might change your mind about transitioning ;)") which then increases the chances of emotional instability and/or depression

Do you seriously think that the practice of modern medicine doesnt damage anyone? Do you think that humanity has perfected medicine?

 

[Deleted member 5086]

"It is damaging to our health as currently practiced" is... absolutely not the case.

If you want to argue something other than the article actually wrote, it's probably not a good sign for the article.

Click to shrink...

Hey, you're derailing this thread right now to the point it's no longer about the topic at all. Please knock it off.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Medicine is absolutely damaging to the health of black bodies and lives as it is currently practiced. You are dead wrong. The fact that you want to tear down your imagined boogeyman of what that statement means instead of admitting the reality we find ourselves in right now is bad.

This (thankfully) ties back to the actual topic of the thread. This knee jerk defense of property and the status quo over black lives? This attempt to derail to talk about anarcho-communism instead of reparations? This attempt to excuse the people who made the worst possible read of noname's posts as correct? The attempt to downplay the modern medical industry's systematic destruction of black bodies? Is not a good look.

Click to shrink...

Medicine can become better yes and many doctors and researchers are very racist also, modern medicine does not make our bodies less healthy as shown by the fact that life expectancy has more than doubled recently.

If you want to argue "medicine needs to improve a lot because there's a lot of practices that are bad" okay.

But then again, you're transforming the content of the article into something you can defend because the actual content is incorrect which... Why keep defending the article then.

But I got a mod warning so I'll stop now.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Medicine can become better yes and many doctors and researchers are very racist also, modern medicine does not make our bodies less healthy as shown by the fact that life expectancy has more than doubled recently.

If you want to argue "medicine needs to improve a lot because there's a lot of practices that are bad" okay.

But then again, you're transforming the content of the article into something you can defend because the actual content is incorrect which... Why keep defending the article then.

But I got a mod warning so I'll stop now.

Click to shrink...

Now that is out of the way, what's your stance on reparations?

 

[thetrin]

Well, whenever they figure out how to convince white people to agree to material reparations, give me a call. Us Indian folk would like some of our shit back too.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Now that is out of the way, what's your stance on reparations?

Click to shrink...

I'm fairly supportive if it could happen but it obviously depends on the scale and opportunity cost of actually implementing the program.

Reparations for Japanese internment were $43,000 (adjusted for inflation) per person, but I'm unclear what amount of money people have in mind when they discuss reparations for slavery.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I'm fairly supportive if it could happen but it obviously depends on the scale and opportunity cost of actually implementing the program.

Reparations for Japanese internment were $43,000 (adjusted for inflation) per person, but I'm unclear what amount of money people have in mind when they discuss reparations for slavery.

Click to shrink...

so putting feasibility aside you'd be against expropriation as part of reparations?

 

[Deleted member 25600]

Okay so fossil fuels are currently cheaper and more convenient than other fuels when fossil fuels are already established. What non-state body would ensure that fossil fuels were banned?

Click to shrink...

What state body is going to do that right now.

I'll give you a hint. None!

Just the mere act of shifting to a decentralised anarchist economy would give the time needed to properly redistribute resources and get climate change under control. It would give us longer than they 10 years we have now to get shit under control. People would negotiate and vote on what they feel is the best course for their community to tackle the problem of climate change. That could be the creation of small scale bio-fuel power plants that burn the waste from local agriculture crops. It could be local solar & wind power stations. It could be the replanning of infrastructure around cycling. It could be all of those things and more.
This is all stuff listed in the article you refused to read BTW.

Whatever these communities decide to do, there's no obstacle to them doing it. There's no oil industry throwing up legal roadblocks or lobbying politicians.

I can't tell you there's a concrete plan on how to deal with climate change that all communities must adhere to. I can tell you that by default, without a plan; it's still a better solution that we have now. That you are actively defending the economic system that is responsible for climate change...to think that such a system with organisations that wield vast power can be reformed in any meaningful way is honestly baffling.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

so putting feasibility aside you'd be against expropriation as part of reparations?

Click to shrink...

What exactly do you mean by expropriation because there's a billion ways to actually take them.

Yes, I'm pro expropriation because I think reparations of $43,000 per person would be paid for with tax money or with an increase in national debt which could reduce the expected value of future US investments, thus taking wealth and future expected wealth away from people and there isn't much difference between wealth and property.

Is this the definition you mean.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

What exactly do you mean by expropriation because there's a billion ways to actually take them.

Yes, I'm pro expropriation because I think reparations of $43,000 per person would be paid for with tax money or with an increase in national debt which could reduce the expected value of future US investments, thus taking wealth and future expected wealth away from people and there isn't much difference between wealth and property.

Is this the definition you mean.

Click to shrink...

no i mean taking productive property and redistributing it to historically marginalized groups

given that inequality has proven to in the long run return as as long as productive capital is hoarded

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

no i mean taking productive property and redistributing it to historically marginalized groups

given that inequality has proven to in the long run return as as long as productive capital is hoarded

Click to shrink...

No, I am not a communist.

How are we redistributing to historically marginalized groups.

Do upper middle class Asian citizens keep their means of production.

Would upper middle class to rich black people have the means of production taken from them.

 

[Zultima]

Like if she's just limiting this request to her audience that's cool. But cant really agree with it as an actual potential national policy, a bit absurd and the sort of thing that will make race relations worse if somehow ever enacted. Tax the rich and filter money into reparations is the solution. Not to mention if theoretically this policy gets enacted based on race, the rich would continue to find their way around it. It's fair for reparations to be racially based, but penalty/taxation should be wealth based.
But at least this statement will get people thinking in the right general direction even if this is too far

 

[Deleted member 48828]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say maybe going after the assets of people with exorbinant amounts of money would be more important than the estates of new followers on twitter?

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

No, I am not a communist.

How are we redistributing to historically marginalized groups.

Do upper middle class Asian citizens keep their means of production.

Would upper middle class to rich black people have the means of production taken from them.

Click to shrink...

if they own productive property then yes (Not a house or a retirement fund). Generational poverty and lack of acess to capital is also a form of marginalization albiet a less extreme and more transient form of marginalization

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

if they own productive property then yes (Not a house or a retirement fund). Generational poverty and lack of acess to capital is also a form of marginalization albiet a less extreme and more transient form of marginalization

Click to shrink...

I mean, I feel like we've moved on a bit from reparations from slavery and you just want communism.

Which you do you I guess, but it just is extremely boring to make every issue about your issue.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I mean, I feel like we've moved on a bit from reparations from slavery and you just want communism.

Which you do you I guess, but it just is extremely boring to make every issue about your issue.

Click to shrink...

noname is a communist and we agree on this issue because i think that racial justice under capitalism is transient at best

you're welcome to disagree but don't assume it's from a place of education on the matter

 

[Kay]

I can't remember where I first heard this so apologise for plagiarism but my favourite analogy to conceptualise black reparations: imaging the stolen labor of black slaves as a physical commodity.
On his death bed your father gives you his favorite, priceless watch that he's had most of his life. As you wear the watch around town one day a man comes up to you and says that he recognises the watch: it belonged to his father when his father was a young and was forcefully taken from him at a young age by your father. He shows you undeniable proof. Are you obligated to give the watch back?

of course, this is absurdly simplified: we have to assume that the watch barely means anything to you in terms of your current wealth and would completely change the live of the man your giving it to. Let's also assume that your father broke both of the other mans legs and his back in the conflict.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

My black friends don't want me to pay for a Roomba.

Setting up a college fund for their kids would be more productive, but in the grand scheme of things I think they would be highly offended that I thought they wanted charity or that I owed them something, personally.

Maybe you could expand on what you mean by 'wish list'

Click to shrink...

Precisely that. In my circle, I and other non-black friends have done stuff like pay for movie/concert tickets, spa days, home appliances, meals, whatever, as a form of personal reparation. It's not uncommon though I can certainly see why that wouldn't appeal to some folks and respect that.

Talk to some of your black friends about their ideas on reparations and open a dialogue. It's gonna come about from everyone having a dialogue on it and not just brushing it off as a pipe dream. And we can take real actions now to hold ourselves accountable for our privilege this way.

 

[Deleted member 25600]

I mean, I feel like we've moved on a bit from reparations from slavery and you just want communism.

Which you do you I guess, but it just is extremely boring to make every issue about your issue.

Click to shrink...

Have you ever wondered why Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Socialist? or Malcolm X? Or Angela Davis? Or Audre Lorde? Or Huey P. Newton and the Black Panthers? or Fred Hampton? Or Boots Riley? or Cornel West? Or Noname!?

I mean....isn't there a pattern here?

 

[hateradio]

she's made some other good tweets over the past couple of days too

Click to shrink...

She seems like the only person I would ever consider following if I had twitter.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Have you ever wondered why Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Socialist? or Malcolm X? Or Angela Davis? Or Audre Lorde? Or Huey P. Newton and the Black Panthers? or Fred Hampton? Or Boots Riley? or Cornel West?

I mean....isn't there a pattern here?

Click to shrink...

Boots Riley is a conspiracy driven person who doesn't know anything that's happening at any time outside of the United States and believes that ISIS executing two US journalists was faked by the CIA. I don't think it's good to consider him a great revolutionary on par with some of the other people in your message.

John Lewis and plenty other civil rights leaders are also not communists.

 

[xir]

Sounds like some people just want to try Communism.
Good luck with that.

Click to shrink...

coming for yr toothbrush

 

[Deleted member 25600]

Boots Riley is a conspiracy driven person who doesn't know anything that's happening at any time outside of the United States and believes that ISIS executing two US journalists was faked by the CIA. I don't think it's good to consider him a great revolutionary on par with some of the other people in your message.

John Lewis and plenty other civil rights leaders are also not communists.

Click to shrink...

You are dodging my question.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

You are dodging my question.

Click to shrink...

The implication of the question seemed to be that communism is what black civil rights leaders have supported and liked throughout history which is what I'm directly addressing along with noting that Boots is not good.

If I wanted to answer your question literally I would say "because they liked socialism though I'm not sure some of those people are actually communists like Noname."

 

[GYODX]

Reparations can take on many forms that don't involve the seizure of private property/productive assets (which I know people have differentiated from personal property, but her tweet literally says 'familial estate and any remaining assets'). You can support one without supporting the other.

The idea that nothing can be made better or more just without also overthrowing capitalism is tiring and reductive. You can fight to improve the lives of millions of people even within the confines of the current economic framework. In fact, I'd argue that it's a more productive use of one's time. Reparations are achievable in the current political climate, so let's fight for that. It'll provide relief to millions of people who need it now.

I honestly think that leftists dislike and actively hope against any sort of incremental progress or 'band-aids' because it undermines the idea that nothing can ever improve within the current system. Given the choice between immediate relief or the uncertainty of trying to overthrow the current system--which would obviously be a very violent, chaotic, and draw-out process with no guaranteed end-game one way or the other--the vast majority of people will predictably choose the former.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Reparations can take on many forms that don't involve the seizure of private property/productive assets (which I know people have differentiated from personal property, but her tweet literally says 'familial estate and any remaining assets'). You can support one without supporting the other.

The idea that nothing can be made better or more just without also overthrowing capitalism is tiring and reductive. You can fight to improve the lives of millions of people even within the confines of the current economic framework. In fact, I'd argue that it's a more productive use of one's time. Reparations are achievable in the current political climate, so let's fight for that. It'll provide relief to millions of people who need it now.

I honestly think that leftists dislike and actively hope against any sort of incremental progress or 'band-aids' because it undermines the idea that nothing can ever improve within the current system. Given the choice between immediate relief or the uncertainty of trying to overthrow the current system--which would obviously be a very violent, chaotic, and draw-out process with no guaranteed end-game one way or the other--the vast majority of people will predictably choose the former.

Click to shrink...

history is proof enough that in the long run the rich and powerful win. Technological advances can pump the numbers up but quality of life metrics in capitalist societies may well have peaked given the directions inequality, climate change and addiction and mental health have been going in.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

history is proof enough that in the long run the rich and powerful win. Technological advances can pump the numbers of but quality of life metrics in capitalist societies may well have peaked given the directions inequality, climate change and addiction and mental health have been going in.

Click to shrink...

So do you support electorally provided communism or a shooting war provided communism.

 

[madame x]

Guuuuuuuurl

You gonna name-check NPR as 'owned by White Supremacists' and don't bother to put FOX on blast?

Who 'owns' NPR anyways?

Click to shrink...

kinda thing it goes without saying that fox is owned by white supremacists, while challenging the liberal status quo as being paret of white supremacy is a lot more of a challenge.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

So do you support electorally provided communism or a shooting war provided communism.

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well that's not really how communism works you can''t just make it happen. I support democratic socialism with vanguardism in the back pocket in case the state enters into prolonged crisis. Communism is just an end state of socialism

 

[Deleted member 25600]

The implication of the question seemed to be that communism is what black civil rights leaders have supported and liked throughout history which is what I'm directly addressing along with noting that Boots is not good.

If I wanted to answer your question literally I would say "because they liked socialism though I'm not sure some of those people are actually communists like Noname."

Click to shrink...

I want to know if these people being Socialists and being involved in the civil rights movement are completely unrelated in your mind. If you think their desire for racial justice and their desire economic justice are seperate things.

But I see I have my answer.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I want to know if these people being Socialists and being involved in the civil rights movement are completely unrelated in your mind. If you think their desire for racial justice and their desire economic justice are seperate things.

But I see I have my answer.

Click to shrink...

The desire for economic justice is obviously tied to racial justice. It's just that economic justice has often not been served under communism and many of the black civil rights leaders who also pursue(d) economic justice are not communists.

The conservation you jumped into isn't about whether or not racial justice can exist without economic justice, the conservation was entirely about communism.

Unless you want to argue that the only way to make up for slavery economically is through communism but also we should do communism everywhere else for other reasons.

 

[Deleted member 25600]

The desire for economic justice is obviously tied to racial justice. It's just that economic justice has often not been served under communism and many of the black civil rights leaders who also pursue(d) economic justice are not communists.

The conservation you jumped into isn't about whether or not racial justice can exist without economic justice, the conservation was entirely about communism.

Unless you want to argue that the only way to make up for slavery economically is through communism but also we should do communism everywhere else for other reasons.

Click to shrink...

Socialist is a broad umbrella that doesn't just mean communist.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Socialist is a broad umbrella that doesn't just mean communist.

Click to shrink...

But this conservation wasn't about socialism, it was about communism.

 

[ibyea]

I mean you gotta admit her words are easy to misconstrue. On a first glance perspective of people who don't know her, she sounds like a troll. Honestly, the posters here did a much better job supporting her points.

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

kinda thing it goes without saying that fox is owned by white supremacists, while challenging the liberal status quo as being paret of white supremacy is a lot more of a challenge.

Click to shrink...

That's the rub then, isn't it. If everything that isn't revolutionary is status quo you've set yourself as an easily dismissed fringe, and personally I wouldn't trust news from some blog whose only reason to exist is just to preach fringe economic theories as a panacea for intricate and confounding social problems

 

[madame x]

That's the rub then, isn't it. If everything that isn't revolutionary is status quo you've set yourself as an easily dismissed fringe, and personally I wouldn't trust news from some blog whose only reason to exist is just to preach fringe economic theories as a panacea for intricate and confounding social problems

Click to shrink...

you cant exactly deny that mainstream liberal media acts as a wing of white supremacy, so you dismiss the criticisms of it as fringe.

look, objectively, that is how some people see it, but why contribute to it?

 

[madame x]

omg this thread is a good read, lemme visit the socialism thread