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DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
This works both ways. Of course the legwork toward figuring out how this would work for games is a ton of work that yields a lot of stuff that isn't going to ultimately be part of making it happen! It's going to be terrible and I don't expect everyone is going to want to do it! But that doesn't mean the very idea of things that make this possible, eventually, is absurd. Whoever does do the work will inevitably reap some rewards.
No but it really is absurd. You cannot sit here and say that maybe one day, somehow, it will be possible for every VR game to be ported to non-VR. It doesn't matter if that day is in 50 years with AI that can whip up a game in seconds, because at that point you've created an entirely new game that has nothing to do with the original. A spiritual successor of sorts.

So, even if that magical AI situation comes about, it cannot happen. Game design will not let it happen at it's core.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,963
Please enlighten us then. See the gif above? Explain how that works without VR.

I've asked this question a few times before, and no one has ever, or will ever successfully answer it.

WRONG.

Let me play with two mice and bind actions to every key on the keyboard, where I will be using my toes to press them.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,298
I'm not trying to imply any "lazy devs" type stuff; "unimaginative" would be a much better adjective. This is a new branch off an industry where 25 years ago, the idea of realistic physics simulations in a game was a pipe dream - to say nothing of it being able to be handled in large amounts by entire tools written specifically to make this possible in a wide variety of games. I think throwing your hands up at the idea of figuring out a stand-in for tracking like "welp, can't figure out any other way to do this for the vast majority of titles" is a bit absurd, even if it may not eventually apply to things like that dev's game which sounds like a quick proof-of-concept.

Let me add that as someone who really enjoys a type of game that is also inherently not very accessible - arcade dance games - this is something that weighs on my mind quite a bit. Are good games worth less if they exclude players by design? These days, I lean more toward yes.

You say "unimaginative" as if that's not indicative of laziness by itself; it directly implies that the unilateral solution that would work for "the vast majority of titles," is something that the developers are at fault for not finding instead of something that is simply too impractical and/or uneconomical to 'discover' and implement.

Remember that porting a VR game to non-VR game with the same level of accessibility as most would require:
- Translating hand, body and head tracking to a 2D plane
- Translating said tracking to digital inputs or one/two-dimensional analog inputs
- Redesigning the game around the lack of depth perception
- Redesigning the game around the lack of physical 'presence' within the game world
- Changing or removing in-game interactions that require physical movement from the player
And likely much more. Compared to your example of a Halo player playing the exact same game as everyone else but with a more unique method of controlling the camera the work and ingenuity required is magnitudes higher.

And, yes, VR is a more exclusive medium than regular flat games. However video-games are already a more exclusive medium than any other; by choosing to develop in either medium the developer has chosen to exclude. The problem, to me, lies in situations where the exclusivity is done without good reason; for instance if a VR game has little-to-no comfort options or if a flat game has no colourblind options or, more controversially, if a difficult singleplayer game has no way of changing its difficulty. It does not lie in situations where developers don't go the extra mile (and then some) to make what they've decided to make into something entirely different.

VRChat does it and it worked well for them. There's even lots of games like murder that people play all the time in it between vr and non-vr users.

If a bunch of hobbyists can make compelling content that works for vr and non-vr so can devs

VR Chat is a first-person chat tool. VR itself adds nothing but immersion to it. Now I don't know what 'Murder' is but the fact that a few games designed with VR in mind have non-VR versions/components does not mean that all games can do the same. There's a good reason why the vast majority of VR games with a flat counterpart are VR ports instead of VR-focused and it's not because the developers are too lazy or "unimaginative," to figure things out for themselves.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
How would those games even work though? You talk like you've never played a room scale VR game before tbh. Youre framing it as some challenge we need to overcome and then it will be easy peasy, while multiple game developers are explaining to you that including a non VR version of certain games would require building an entirely new game, with entirely different gameplay mechanics from the ground up.
I'm trying to frame it as something that is a challenge now and that once a couple good ways of doing it are figured out, I think people spitballing new designs would be able to take those kinds of things into account for future games so it would eventually feel less shoehorned to the player, while acknowledging the first few generations of this likely would be slapdash.
I think it also requires not treating things as precious just because of VR capabilities. What is the core of the fun in Beat Saber's design, for example? Gonna be different for all players, but just as an entire community sprang up around playing DDR on a computer keyboard, I think there are ways you can change either that input or that game (but does it end up looking too much like other games at that point? I guess that's for Oculus to decide now.)
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
VRChat does it and it worked well for them. There's even lots of games like murder that people play all the time in it between vr and non-vr users.

If a bunch of hobbyists can make compelling content that works for vr and non-vr so can devs
If you pick a few ideas then sure. Most of what VR entails means it cannot be ported, so you'll have most games be unable to ever make a transition.

VRChat works because it's not really a game; there are no strict mechanics in place. However a far off version of VRChat in 20 years would likely have way too much dependence on VR to even be considered for non-VR.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Some games do have both. There's quite a few on PSVR. Here They Lie, Eve, think Transference added it too. Plus there's Rez , Wipeout, Res Evil, Superhot..

A small portion of games can, but most games can't. Those on the PSVR are specifically designed around the weakness of PSVR's inferior tracking by reducing the importance of motion mechanics and movement speed, no makor requirement of body movement, mostly seated play area, no room scale, straight out not having any VR motion support on controllers and more.

SUPERHOT VR was rebuilt from the ground up for VR. Its a totally different game from the non-VR version in terms of fundamental gameplay
 
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shoyz

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
531
The one game that comes to mind is Rec Room, which was later given a 2D mode you can play on a bunch of different platforms. It honestly completely sucked the soul of the game away; there was a fun social element to seeing everybody running around in person with scaled heights, real time arm movements, and all of its sports games being played realistically as VR does like physically throwing a basketball in a basketball hoop, or more challengingly having to properly arc the throw of a dodgeball at a moving target. IIRC monster combat with bows involved holding out the bow, pulling back an arrow and carefully aiming the shot, which involved a shocking amount of skill, trial and error.
The 2D update turned every interaction in the game into 'Press A' where the basketballs shoot directly in front of you, the dodgeballs shoot directly in front of you, and the arrows shoot directly in front of you. Or a cute interaction of giving another player a high five to friend them.. turned into Press A. It's so soulless that the developers actually went out of their way to craft character animations for 2D players to, no joke, have idle-esque animations to fake the appearance of them being a VR player. The update really diminished the feel of the game and destroyed the game balance, imo.

What we need is more accessible VR, not 2D demakes of VR games.
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,275
Making games more accessible is a great thing, but that doesn't mean it's always going to be possible.

Some games wouldn't be too hard to make accessible to non-VR gamers, but for a lot of them you'd either have to make things very awkward to the point that it's almost less accessible (like mapping 10,000 buttons to 8 is possible, but you might have to have a ridiculous toggle), or you have to cut down the experience to use those fewer buttons. At that point in most cases it isn't going to be the same game or it won't be worth playing anymore.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,899
You say "unimaginative" as if that's not indicative of laziness by itself; it directly implies that the unilateral solution that would work for "the vast majority of titles," is something that the developers are at fault for not finding instead of something that is simply too impractical and/or uneconomical to 'discover' and implement.

Remember that porting a VR game to non-VR game with the same level of accessibility as most would require:
- Translating hand, body and head tracking to a 2D plane
- Translating said tracking to digital inputs or one/two-dimensional analog inputs
- Redesigning the game around the lack of depth perception
- Redesigning the game around the lack of physical 'presence' within the game world
- Changing or removing in-game interactions that require physical movement from the player
And likely much more. Compared to your example of a Halo player playing the exact same game as everyone else but with a more unique method of controlling the camera the work and ingenuity required is magnitudes higher.

And, yes, VR is a more exclusive medium than regular flat games. However video-games are already a more exclusive medium than any other; by choosing to develop in either medium the developer has chosen to exclude. The problem, to me, lies in situations where the exclusivity is done without good reason; for instance if a VR game has little-to-no comfort options or if a flat game has no colourblind options or, more controversially, if a difficult singleplayer game has no way of changing its difficulty. It does not lie in situations where developers don't go the extra mile (and then some) to make what they've decided to make into something entirely different.



VR Chat is a first-person chat tool. VR itself adds nothing but immersion to it. Now I don't know what 'Murder' is but the fact that a few games designed with VR in mind have non-VR versions/components does not mean that all games can do the same. There's a good reason why the vast majority of VR games with a flat counterpart are VR ports instead of VR-focused and it's not because the developers are too lazy or "unimaginative," to figure things out for themselves.
I'm not blaming anyone for not having this working right damn now. I'm saying looking at the laundry list of things in the quote that make this difficult shouldn't result in people saying it absolutely can't be done ever, which is the prevailing wisdom in this thread.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
I'm not blaming anyone for not having this working right damn now. I'm saying looking at the laundry list of things in the quote that make this difficult shouldn't result in people saying it absolutely can't be done ever, which is the prevailing wisdom in this thread.
But it literally, objectively, cannot be done ever.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,579
I'm trying to frame it as something that is a challenge now and that once a couple good ways of doing it are figured out, I think people spitballing new designs would be able to take those kinds of things into account for future games so it would eventually feel less shoehorned to the player, while acknowledging the first few generations of this likely would be slapdash.
I think it also requires not treating things as precious just because of VR capabilities. What is the core of the fun in Beat Saber's design, for example? Gonna be different for all players, but just as an entire community sprang up around playing DDR on a computer keyboard, I think there are ways you can change either that input or that game (but does it end up looking too much like other games at that point? I guess that's for Oculus to decide now.)
There are entire genres that fundamentally just cannot work in a 2D plane without steroscopic 3-d, head tracking and motion controls. Have you ever played a room scale game? How in 2d, would you walk forward while simultaneously shooting an enemy behind you, slicing an enemy with a sword in front of you, while looking up at an enemy who is attacking from above and planning your next attack? There are games that completely rely on you being able to correctly judge depth, while controlling the camera (your head) and performing complex tasks with both hands at the same time, maybe without even looking at the actions your hands are peforming, while also moving your body. This type of thing would be completely impossible in 2D.

The idea that we need to strive to eventually make all VR games more like 2D games so we can have both versions for every game, makes no sense at all. In a 2d game, you hit a button to crouch while you hit another button to pop out and shoot. In VR, the very act of physically crouching while reaching your hand up to blind fire can be thrilling. In a 2D game this a mundane, almost trivial part of the gameplay, but in VR you can build the entire experience around things like that. There are certain things that just can not ever translate to a 2d medium.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
I fully acknowledge that it's not simple, it's not a finger snap, and it's something that probably looks different for different titles. But there absolutely can be a framework for how these things come to be and the work for figuring that out should already be happening.

Feel free to start us off. With like, anything, because so far you've offered precisely zero solutions for alternatives to controls that rely on input for 3 points with 6DOF that are spaced out the same way your hands are in relation to your head.

Seated modes, crouch buttons, snap turning, the many locomotion options. Those are accessibility options. What you want is a new game that rips the gameplay out of the old one and wears its skin.

The fundamental conceit you don't seem to want to address is that the technology is designed to capture your hand and head movements as closely as possible. The very tech the games are built on are what renders them inaccessible to users with restricted motion in those joints. They can't be replaced. How many joints do we have total conscious control over in all axis? Thumbs, wrists, ankles, neck, hips, any more?

And that is only half the problem. I have a leapmotion controller that on a very, very good day will get your hand and knuckle positions 100%. The Hand App that comes with it that allows you to pick up an object is still borderline unusable because you can't judge distance and depth on a monitor.

But I think you recognise that now that you've transitioned to airy-fairy statements about imagination and challenging the status quo.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,298
I'm not blaming anyone for not having this working right damn now. I'm saying looking at the laundry list of things in the quote that make this difficult shouldn't result in people saying it absolutely can't be done ever, which is the prevailing wisdom in this thread.

I don't think anyone is denying that there could be 2D versions of perhaps all VR games; however what you're arguing is that those 2D versions could actually replicate the full VR experience instead of being an entirely different entity (see Superhot and Superhot VR)', and for many reasons people simply see it that as impossible.

Arguing that all it takes is "imagination" and "work" is just inherently flawed as it argues that the problem lies not in practicality but in personality, and that just ain't it even if you're coming from a more noble place than the vast majority of people who use similar rhetoric.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,592
"Imagination and challenging the status quo" is the funniest bit I have read because VR is all about imagining and challenging games 2D game designs and creat things not possible without VR. Even Astrobot's level design, which is a far simpler game than full scale VR experiences, on a flat screen would be absolutely terrible. To make it work they would have to create an entirely different game.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
LMAO Just dont buy the game my man, you dont have to experience every game made
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
I'm not speaking about individual titles because this isn't about making a solution that is for x game or y game and is perfect. I'm not their developer or publisher, that's not my job. I fully acknowledge that it's not simple, it's not a finger snap, and it's something that probably looks different for different titles. But there absolutely can be a framework for how these things come to be and the work for figuring that out should already be happening.

I'd argue that SteamVR's input system is already a reasonably powerful push in the direction of making VR more accessible by allowing developers to more easily abstract out physical actions for their games, and that this is a better direction than some sort of framework to make VR games detached from VR entirely.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,573
Where it can be done easily, sure. For many VR games that would go far beyond being an accessibility toggle and necessitate development of a separate game that might not even be able to replicate the VR experience faithfully.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
How can a user replicate VR gameplay using a gyroscope when their POV is stuck on a monitor? There's no depth perception and scale is wrong. Even if they had a 3rd arm to control the mouse and hold this gyroscope and use the keyboard, interacting with 3D space would always be off.

Like, take a normal digital camera, hold it really close to your face so that the output screen replaces most of your vision and try walking around your house. It's next to impossible because of the same principles.


Regarding depth perception we will see big improvements in this area because holographic displays have been developed already. But they are no where near close to being affordable as a low end consumer product.

Regardless there are still too many problems.
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,769
giphy.gif


Simple example but you can't do this with traditional 2D controls and a flat screen.

That's a Golden eye map 😂
 

m0dus

Truant Pixel
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,034
Holy shit this discussion

I mean. Wow.

I think, given the costs already associated with development of any game, the expectation for creating entirely separate versions of the same title with completely different interactivity and play mechanics is a pipe dream, best. Appreciate also that VR dev is more difficult and more uncertain an investment for the studio involved.

it doesn't mean what you do has to be at the expense of inclusivity. Making VR experiences playable regardless of position (supine, seated, standing, room scale) adapting multiple control schemes and including visibility options for those with color-blindness and yes, movement options to minimize motion sickness for sensitive players like the OP are reasonable expectations for VR devs. VR is still a frontier and best practices are still relatively in their infancy. There may still yet be hope for folks like the OP to find a way to enjoy these games without getting dizzy.

Demanding that we create a 'flat' version of every game, really, is not.
 
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Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,818
JP
As someone researching VR/MR UX, pancaking has been considered and be found to be a dead end, if not technologically then economically. But I work with mostly non gaming applications so it doesn't really make a lot of sense in those areas.
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,437
At some level, forcing accessibility is like telling someone to make a painting out of a song or vice versa for deaf/blind people. Like I mean sure, you could technically do something sorta but it kinda loses the original effect of the medium and the creator of the work may not really be suited at the translated piece and would rather devote their time to making more of what they're good at.

Especially considering VR games are rare enough without forcing additional costs on them, and it's not like we have any lack of pancake games already.
 
Oct 27, 2017
356
Yes instead of working towards making a few of the thousands of non-VR games VR we should make the few VR games non-VR for "accessibility"
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I really just don't see how this would work for many games. Some I think it's possible for sure, but many of them specifically have mechanics relying on some form of hand presence.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Hey i know. Lets have some vr games be vr only and some have flat display versions. Then if you need a flat version of a vr game you can simply choose to play one that exists.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Them not having a white paper on deck covering how this would work doesn't make the "fuck you, got mine" attitude prevailing in this thread any less ableist.
I don't think most here are saying "fuck you got mine". I think it's more people who are very experienced with VR are having a hard time fathoming how experiences that revolve specifically around head and hand tracking and depth perception being replicable in a more traditional gaming experience.
 
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spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,749
This thread was embarrassing to read. Accessibility and flatscreen gaming are not terms that go hand in hand. Instead of forcing devs to make flat screen versions, we should be talking about better integrating VR solutions to a wider variety of players with different needs and abilities.

Flatscreen gaming is not an accessibility solution for VR. It's a hackneyed one, that dodges the issue entirely.
 
Sep 23, 2018
1,085
My two cents;

Accessibility options are good when they are implemented and make sense for the majority of "flat games" - I see no reason why they shouldn't exist or be more widespread.

I don't think that you can in good faith ask for non-VR versions of games made for VR without now realising that is basically asking for two games to be made. (Given the dev input in this thread).
I also don't really see OP's main issue as an accessibility issue ; he / she said they get dizzy and disoriented- as do I and many MANY other VR users.
Not to be rude, but this is one step away from demanding all films are now to be made into radio dramas or that all Rollerblades sold must come in every size possible and be usable by people with no legs / missing lower limbs.
maybe that's a bad example , but this thread is really really strange.
 

SirBaron

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
853
Give more options for every VR game especially since some games are quite lacking, or even some that "force" comfort settings. However those who are demanding flat version games are on another planet.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
I know its concept is basically turning a VR only game into a normal game, making it lose the VR spark but I honestly think other VR studios should consider patching in a non-vr mode for their games allowing people to play their games that some people might not be able to either due to illness or money.

It's a noble idea, but it's not just about losing spark, it's about how complex the job is to translate lots of 1:1 interactions over to a 2D screen and which input device(s) do you move them to.

Take holding a rifle with 2 hands. In VR I can hold the gun with one hand, two hands, raise the gun to my arms, reload bullets / slipes, pull a slide, etc.

Imagine porting it to a 2D screen and controlling it with a joypad or K+M. You now have to author a lot of new animations and logic to manage all of those actions. And that also requires further QA'ing.

You could use one tracked controller as a wii-style pointer for aiming, but you still need those anims. Whilst using 2x tracked controllers wouldn't feel right because you'd be expected to grab items around you that you can't see. Imagine holding a gun with both your hands and seeing it on screen at 1-3 meters away, not quite matching up, and then trying to reach for ammo and reload it in the space around you whilst watching the results on screen and adjusting for errors. It won't feel natural at all.

And we haven't begun to spoke about balancing difficulty of those games to match these new input devices.

Now start extrapolating those approaches and problems across a range of interactions - putting a key in a lock and pulling the handle, raising night vision goggles to your eyes, shaking someone's hand, etc and you start to how direct translations of interactions from VR to non-VR are not simple jobs.

The best titles that work across VR and non-VR seem to be ones in which an avatar interacts with virtual peripherals to perform all the actions required in the virtual world, e.g. a car, space ship or jet. These can then be mapped to joypads / K&M, bespoke peripherals and tracked controllers and played in 2D and VR.
 

Qassim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,532
United Kingdom
This would kill VR.

To make a fundamentally good VR game, you have to design it for VR. If you have to design it to work for Non-VR too, you are either making two different games or one mediocre one.

It's an analogy I keep making, but it's like asking for a 2D version of Mario 64. You're entirely missing the point.
 
Nov 28, 2017
735
Sweden
I think a lot of people here have an all or nothing view. The OP said a non-VR version due to dizzyness, that doesn't mean non-motion tracking. Frankly most games I've played didn't truly require an HMD. They would be playable with motion tracked controllers and a flat monitor controlling the view with an analog stick. Of course this would be an inferior way to play since the reason motion tracking in VR works so much better than previous attempts is because they are in relation to the player rather than a third person view. This makes it intuitive. But Beat Saber would absolutely be playable without an HMD. Not as well, but if the alternative is not playing at all, why not?

Well, because it takes time and money to develop. But really most technical reasons are actually financial in nature.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
While you're at it, I'd like to see VR mode added to all non-VR games as well. :D
Haha yep. This would be almost as challenging as the other way around depending on the game.
Valve: "We are working on 3 full-length VR games"

Gamers: "Port them to non-VR!"

Valve: "Our first game, Half-Life: Alyx couldn't ever work without VR"

Gamers: "Yes it can! We know better than you despite having limited or no knowledge of game design or VR itself!"

Valve: "Even if we could, it would take years"

Gamers: "Just do it!"

Also Gamers: "Hurry up Valve. Where is Half Life 3?! You're taking ages!"
Basically this.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,749
I think a lot of people here have an all or nothing view. The OP said a non-VR version due to dizzyness, that doesn't mean non-motion tracking. Frankly most games I've played didn't truly require an HMD. They would be playable with motion tracked controllers and a flat monitor controlling the view with an analog stick. Of course this would be an inferior way to play since the reason motion tracking in VR works so much better than previous attempts is because they are in relation to the player rather than a third person view. This makes it intuitive. But Beat Saber would absolutely be playable without an HMD. Not as well, but if the alternative is not playing at all, why not?

Well, because it takes time and money to develop. But really most technical reasons are actually financial in nature.

Dizzyness usually occurs due to locomotion, a large majority of games feature static placement or teleportation which minimizes the nausea. I'm not convinced VR is as much of an obstacle as OP claims it to be.

As for your controller solution, I have strong inclination to believe that the people refusing to invest in VR headsets will equally refuse buying VR controllers as a stopgap. Like you said, most reasons are actually financial in nature.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
No thanks. If a flat mode is possible then that tells me the game wasn't made for VR. Some games might be able to pull it off but games designed around VR simply wouldn't work.
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
Accessibility for VR games should be about making VR games as comfortable for everyone as possible. Things like locomotion options and comfort settings, or jump/crouch as buttons rather than being tied to your physical abilities. It should not be about making VR games not VR.

Maybe some games could translate to a flat version, but it would be a different version. Beat Saber as a flat game with motion controls would probably share more in common with Just Dance Wii than it does with Beat Saber VR.