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Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Yeah this is basically the only way - essentially turning Yozora into a recursive Final Fantasy rep

I'd be all for it even as someone who likes FFXV quite a bit, Versus XIII was so fundamentally different anyway after all was said and done.

Dunno if Nomura has the power to work on three major projects at once, though.
Same. I love FFXV, but I'm still interested in a new Versus. I just think Yozora's design is extremely stupid, and not a fan of how the name sounds either, but with this new development of "this isn't my true form, actually", it could be salvageable.

If he just retcons it into KH, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to get over the disappointment of him not just using Noctis for this. FF in KH has never been a recreation of the games' plots anyway, he could have done exactly that without any issue.

As for the three projects, he could just hand KH over to Yasue. He already does most of the heavy lifting, anyway.

Square-Enix really needs to start hiring new writers, though. Also cutscene directors. Please don't butcher the promising Versus trailers with KH III story delivery. FFVII seems to be doing well on that front, but that core team will definitely carry over to FFVII-2.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Eh. Would have preferred it of Square just let him make his own game instead of mixing it with Kingdom Hearts. Just take a look at the gun that he carries, it looks like a toy.
Come on do you expect me not to laugh when he's called a commander and he's carrying that goofy ass toy gun? He might have something more realistic looking if he wasn't mixed with KH, but as of now he looks like a cornball.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Maybe if he didnt take forever to make that game he could have actually released it idk. That he shoved this into kingdom hearts is just embarrassing
 

Geg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,546
Wow, nomura pls lmao

Also, I don't know how hot a take this is but I liked FFXV more than KHIII
 

Iori Fuyusaka

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,901
Not sure why this couldn't have stayed in the dedicated spoiler thread.

I guess this hot take didn't get enough replies there.

Twitter bot spoiled me because you just had to make this thread.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Wow, nomura pls lmao

Also, I don't know how hot a take this is but I liked FFXV more than KHIII
As far as story and characters go, I definitely think it's way better than any Nomura directed title so far, easily. If it's an unpopular opinion, it shouldn't be. It'll probably change when FFVII Remake comes out, though.

And I'm not saying FFXV is particularly great at these things, KH is just awful.

But KH combat (at least the numbered titles) is WAAAAY better.

But the thing is, we already have KH for KH gameplay. The world and premise is what got people interested in Versus specifically. So I have to say I'm pretty worried about the execution when this thing comes out, whatever it is.
 

Naga

Alt account
Banned
Aug 29, 2019
7,850
Kind of like how some people think he is some abject failure that keeps getting failing upwards?
I've never read that anywhere. He's just terrible at project/time management and has some weird ideas for plenty of stuff.
Wish he wasn't responsible for the Parasite Eve IP though.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
Nomura: Can use ideas from Versus on Kingdom hearts?
square Enix: Okay

Fans: WOW NOMURA SURE HATES SE , TABATA AND XV HUH???
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,318
Canada
At least from what people have said, Disney own all of the original characters in KH. So since he's not from any other IP, he belongs to them.

Bit of a shame, it honestly feels like Disney sorta barely ackowledges the franchise most of the time. (Then again Im sure marketing for the series is widely different between NA and Japan)

Nomura: Can use ideas from Versus on Kingdom hearts?
square Enix: Okay

Fans: WOW NOMURA SURE HATES SE , TABATA AND XV HUH???

lol this.

Nomura had the CG artists work secretly at night and secretly program this into the game! IT'S REVENGE for Tabata's SINS. :P
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,263
It feels like Yozora is Nomura trying to create his own "iconic" character when he doesn't realize he has one in Sora

It's like Rob Reiner with North
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,506
Mass
For maximum hilarity, I hope this turns out to be an Archie Comics situation with the Sonic the Hedgehog license, where no one is really paying that much attention to what Nomura is doing as long as he's rubberstamping the necessities (throw in Mickey, some Disney characters, done). And then some exec somewhere randomly catches a non-Disney scene and is just like ".... what in the fuck" and then gets Disney's full attention.

Not likely at all given how Disney operates, but would still be hilarious
Who would be IDW comics in this scenario?
 

Chibs

Member
Nov 5, 2017
4,506
Belgium
How long before they announce Kingdom Hearts: Versus XIII? Place your bets people!

Hell, the name even makes sense with the 13 darknesses. I BELIEVE!
 

rhandino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,610
People gasping at Nomura rolling some of his ideas from versus XIII into Kingdom Hearts when this is the series that has time travel while dreaming inside a dream.

lmao, some people are too much.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,864
The last thing I want is for Square to spend years on the follow-up to a failed project.

Don't you all have enough? Isn't a decade and 4 years of existence not enough? You want to hear about this game for the next decade too?

It didn't work then, it will not work now. Make something new for the love of God
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Considering Nomura took forever on Versus and had some really dumb ideas about it (like turning it into a musical?), he has no one to blame but himself.

Anybody else would've been fired.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
The musical thing always sounded like a light hearted joke to me. He wouldn't be at the position he's at if he was incapable of understanding how stupid throwing away everything to turn it into a musical would be, and S-E actually had a hard time turning down the idea.

Which people and how do we know if that is still valid specifically for this character?
Random people on the internet, the best source of information. :P

We can't know if it's valid for this specific character, but it's more likely to be than not, assuming the information is accurate.
 

Lukar

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,401
Not sure why this couldn't have stayed in the dedicated spoiler thread.

I guess this hot take didn't get enough replies there.

Twitter bot spoiled me because you just had to make this thread.
It's a big enough thing that it deserved a new thread. I almost did it myself yesterday, but settled on bumping a thread from last year instead.

I'm sorry the bot spoiled it for you, but I really don't think OP is to blame here.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I thought I remember Nomura and the whole team working on Versus XIII being pushed and shoved around to different projects for years, like patching up FFXIV, and the final straw being them just having him finish KHIII. Everything I've heard makes it sound like Nomura has a ton of shit on his hands, supposedly he didn't even know he was directing the FFVII remake. the level of shit he gets from FF fans when the only thing he ever directed (co-directed, and did not write) was Advent Children seems unfair.

There's truth to this, but it's a fairly reductive viewpoint of it also. Like, it's true that pieces of the Versus 'team' (which was basically the KH2 team) were pulled to assist on both 13 and 14 when the former hit dev troubles and the latter had to be rebooted, but it's also pretty standard form in game development to start with a smaller team that builds concepts and ideas, then progress up and staff up that team when you pass certain milestones and proof-of-concept designs. Even without people being 'stolen', the stumbling block for Versus was that for years a solid, absolute vision of what the game might 'be' (story aside) was never really solidified, and that was with a core team being relatively solidly on the project. You can compare some key staff credits from KH2 to FF13 and FF14 to see who got shunted around, in fact. And from that, you can see who stuck around.

But Nomura was, for a long time, the absolute 'face' of Square Enix, so another part of the problem is work load: he wasn't ever just doing Versus; he was overseeing character design for FF13, which in the SE hierarchy means he's also signing off on all the FF13 action figures and stuff - looking at proofs, suggesting changes, etc. He's doing the same for other games he designed characters for, like FF7, 8, 10 and so on. Then he's signing off on HD Remasters, like new models for characters in FF10, and then he's working on a bunch of KH spin-offs. So he was doing a lot, and that was probably another part of what helped to really 'kill' Versus as it was.

It was also undoubtedly impacted by FF13, because that game's star had certainly faded by the third in its trilogy, and it was divisive at it was - but they could've rebranded it as-is if there was a killer game there... but there wasn't. After years of concept and systems design work.

But anyway, what I'm saying is - the narrative some fans like to push that the only thing that went wrong on Versus was other games stole its team away - it's bunk, or at least bunk alone. My understanding consistently throughout Versus' development was that it was a rocky road and a bit of a mess, and there was never very much of it to show beyond what was in the trailers. It was an idea in search of direction, and it never really found it until Tabata came in with a very tight mandate from upper management and took a machete to Nomura's ideas to create a plan that could ship within the parameters he'd been given. Nomura didn't like that, obviously - that's no secret - but Tabata can't be blamed for making the best of a bad scenario.

Ultimately what Tabata shipped is a different game, though, which is where all the fan arguments begin and end, I guess. But the truth is they should've announced FF15 as if it were an all new thing and then in the interviews/media blitz at E3 the following day explained that the Versus project was cancelled (when Kotaku reported this, they were right, but there was more to the story - it was more like it was on hiatus) but elements of its concept were being reused in an all-new title, cos that's what it was. The mistake was assuming that the continuity between the two projects, one logo exploding into the other, would be a positive, hype generating thing. And it was, for a while, but then the reality set in and Nomura refused to continue to be involved/associated with it, and that was that. The endlessly combative FF community latched onto it all and created a warzone. But even in that announcement you have elements of Versus that wouldn't make the cut, demonstrative of what was a seven-year tug or war over what that game could be and its potential identity coming to a head.

Ironically, this mad shit might be the best thing to have happened to Versus - as if Nomura really, truly believes it can still work, whatever he sees in it can hopefully be expressed divorced from what came before with the excuse that it's part of Kingdom Hearts that's merely tributary to Versus... which is an opportunity FF15 never had, to stand on its own away from the expectations of Versus.

EDIT: I want to add, also, that Tabata has actively said that if he'd been given the choice, he would've made an all new game. But it was mandated they had to build from the ashes of Versus, and this is down to a company attitude thing. Some of it is very noble: like with FF14 ARR, they didn't want to let fans down, so they wanted to 'make good' on the original promise, but unlike with ARR they made this decision knowing they would not be able to deliver on the original promise, just something that looked a bit like it and used key pieces of it. A mistake, imo, but 15 is a fine game regardless. Some of it is a bit pigheaded: admitting you've canned something is an admission of failure - of the company, of the team, of the director, and they didn't want to do that. So that's why it had to be the way it was, I suppose.

Regarding him 'not knowing' he was directing FF7, the communication at SEJ can be pretty mad sometimes but I absolutely refuse to believe this is true, as it displays a level of flippancy and a lack of communication that'd actually be genuinely shocking. No wonder they can't ship a game without some sort of mess in the middle if that really is true.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
16,574
VersusXIII was likened to a more mature and darker kingdom hearts and now it's in kingdom hearts...

giphy.gif
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
There's truth to this, but it's a fairly reductive viewpoint of it also. Like, it's true that pieces of the Versus 'team' (which was basically the KH2 team) were pulled to assist on both 13 and 14 when the former hit dev troubles and the latter had to be rebooted, but it's also pretty standard form in game development to start with a smaller team that builds concepts and ideas, then progress up and staff up that team when you pass certain milestones and proof-of-concept designs. Even without people being 'stolen', the stumbling block for Versus was that for years a solid, absolute vision of what the game might 'be' (story aside) was never really solidified, and that was with a core team being relatively solidly on the project. You can compare some key staff credits from KH2 to FF13 and FF14 to see who got shunted around, in fact. And from that, you can see who stuck around.

But Nomura was, for a long time, the absolute 'face' of Square Enix, so another part of the problem is work load: he wasn't ever just doing Versus; he was overseeing character design for FF13, which in the SE hierarchy means he's also signing off on all the FF13 action figures and stuff - looking at proofs, suggesting changes, etc. He's doing the same for other games he designed characters for, like FF7, 8, 10 and so on. Then he's signing off on HD Remasters, like new models for characters in FF10, and then he's working on a bunch of KH spin-offs. So he was doing a lot, and that was probably another part of what helped to really 'kill' Versus as it was.

It was also undoubtedly impacted by FF13, because that game's star had certainly faded by the third in its trilogy, and it was divisive at it was - but they could've rebranded it as-is if there was a killer game there... but there wasn't. After years of concept and systems design work.

But anyway, what I'm saying is - the narrative some fans like to push that the only thing that went wrong on Versus was other games stole its team away - it's bunk, or at least bunk alone. My understanding consistently throughout Versus' development was that it was a rocky road and a bit of a mess, and there was never very much of it to show beyond what was in the trailers. It was an idea in search of direction, and it never really found it until Tabata came in with a very tight mandate from upper management and took a machete to Nomura's ideas to create a plan that could ship within the parameters he'd been given. Nomura didn't like that, obviously - that's no secret - but Tabata can't be blamed for making the best of a bad scenario.

Ultimately what Tabata shipped is a different game, though, which is where all the fan arguments begin and end, I guess. But the truth is they should've announced FF15 as if it were an all new thing and then in the interviews/media blitz at E3 the following day explained that the Versus project was cancelled (when Kotaku reported this, they were right, but there was more to the story - it was more like it was on hiatus) but elements of its concept were being reused in an all-new title, cos that's what it was. The mistake was assuming that the continuity between the two projects, one logo exploding into the other, would be a positive, hype generating thing. And it was, for a while, but then the reality set in and Nomura refused to continue to be involved/associated with it, and that was that. The endlessly combative FF community latched onto it all and created a warzone. But even in that announcement you have elements of Versus that wouldn't make the cut, demonstrative of what was a seven-year tug or war over what that game could be and its potential identity coming to a head.

Ironically, this mad shit might be the best thing to have happened to Versus - as if Nomura really, truly believes it can still work, whatever he sees in it can hopefully be expressed divorced from what came before with the excuse that it's part of Kingdom Hearts that's merely tributary to Versus... which is an opportunity FF15 never had, to stand on its own away from the expectations of Versus.

Regarding him 'not knowing' he was directing FF7, the communication at SEJ can be pretty mad sometimes but I absolutely refuse to believe this is true, as it displays a level of flippancy and a lack of communication that'd actually be genuinely shocking. No wonder they can't ship a game without some sort of mess in the middle if that really is true.
This is a great post.
 

Alec

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,726
Louisville, KY
This whole package is a MUCH better "ending" to the Xehanort Saga than the original was by itself. Kinda shocked at how well-executed it was.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,059
As someone that hasn't played KH3 or this DLC and doesn't care to... Did Shibuya not make an appearance in this?

I know that secret movie had Shibuya wake up in Shibuya with the same 104 there that's in TWEWY. Not-Noctis was also in that video.
 

Risev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,415
The main plot and concepts seem untouched. So yes, according to officially released statements, very little changed from a storyline perspective.
That's just story though, which I agree we don't know enough to determine if it's overall different or not, and can only go by that which Square told us.

But gameplay is a huge part of the discussion, and what was a huge part of the marketing for Versus XIII (as well as the initial trailers for FFXV) is completely missing from the final product. But eh I mean Tabata was faced with a tough situation and had to salvage what he could. They were clearly starved for time, and I do admire what Tabata and his team achieved (mainly with the final version of the game, not what we initially got).
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
I liked this theory from YouTube:

Yozora is Sora and Sora is Yozora.
Kingdom Hearts is essentially the Gateway between these 2 realities. Through Kingdom Hearts, The Verum Rex or "True King"(dom Hearts) Universe Functions as the source of Light for the Universe we've been in so far (this is why it has a normal Moon, it's look's like that because it is overflooded with Light). We've seen this split Reality Idea in both Dream Drop Distance and 3D (In ToyBox, even though we don't see the parallel).

Verum Rex is a darkness Universe. Yozora means Night Sky while Sora means Sky. Yozora is essentially Dark World Sora. The Darkness here comes from the Universe we know so far. This is a part of the Master of Masters Grand Plan. There is/was likely a Xehanort like Character in the Verum Rex Universe whom the Master of Masters also put on his Path, just as with Xehanort. Meanwhile, in his own time (I presume) the Master of Masters trained the Foretellers and sent Luxu off in Order to create the Book of Prophecies, which the MoMs needed to manage the next part. His whole Spiel about it not being possible to change future isn't true and he knows this. He simply tells them it is to keep them under control and make sure they don't deviate from what he needs them to do. This is also demonstrated in KH3 when Sora goes and changes Time. He bred the distrust amoung the 'Foretellers to A get them go through with the Keyblade War and B keep any one of them from trusting any one of each other more then the Master. He ultimately needs these overwhelmingly powerful Lights Users to do what he tells them without question...because he want's to make the Verum Rex Universe fall to the Light, which would obviously be bad for it's inhabitants, but good for those who dwell in the light based Universe if their Kingdom Hearts is stronger.

That's why the Foreteller and MoM are the "Bad Guys" in this.
The Idea here will be that balance is the right way to go. Kingdom Hearts shouldn't exist (it's not the natural State of things or the X-Blade wouldn't exist). Oh and also, the MoM will probably succeed at his Goals in the short Term. And everyone remembers Sora because he is indeed not gone. He simply exists in their reality as Yozora at the moment.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,459
The last thing I want is for Square to spend years on the follow-up to a failed project.

Don't you all have enough? Isn't a decade and 4 years of existence not enough? You want to hear about this game for the next decade too?

It didn't work then, it will not work now. Make something new for the love of God

Kingdom Hearts is just Nomura's charming but vapid soap box with some Disney flavor and the series isn't going away. This is fine.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,980
LOLOLOLOL.

This man had like 10 years to make his game and is still salty he wasn't allowed more time to finish it.
 

DrScruffleton

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,548
I used to think I had a vague grasp on understanding kingdom hearts story, now I'm back to having no clue what any of this is.