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Noam Chomsky is supporting Joe Biden, compares #NeverBiden to Communists in the 1930s who refused to ally with social democrats against Nazis
- Thread starter jack_package_200
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I've never been a fan of Biden and I definitely don't judge anyone who isn't voting for him, especially over his history with women and even young girls. But I do understand the comparison. I'm really thankful I haven't been put into this position.
If so happens that Biden loses, I'm not going to blame the good people who felt they couldn't vote for him because of his history in politics and with women. I blame the democratic party for still having him as the nominee. There were better candidates, with better more progressive politics and better history with women and minority groups. I guess it's seen that Biden is better at courting the traditional conservative/republican minded people, too bad he at the same time lets down the actual left-democrats, those who he is supposed to represent. It's just assumed that if you're a democrat you're voting for him no matter what, this is what you get and you should be happy about it too.
If so happens that Biden loses, I'm not going to blame the good people who felt they couldn't vote for him because of his history in politics and with women. I blame the democratic party for still having him as the nominee. There were better candidates, with better more progressive politics and better history with women and minority groups. I guess it's seen that Biden is better at courting the traditional conservative/republican minded people, too bad he at the same time lets down the actual left-democrats, those who he is supposed to represent. It's just assumed that if you're a democrat you're voting for him no matter what, this is what you get and you should be happy about it too.
Yeah two-party system is very problematic in this regard specifically. I personally haven't had this problem. In the last presidential election I had 4 nominees I could have voted for without losing a minute of sleep, there was 2 candidates I could consider as evil. One nominee was dubious and one I wouldn't vote because of his party, but otherwise seems like a stand up dude (father of the Linux creator Linus Torvalds btw). There was plenty of choice for me to vote without feeling immoral or icky. Not once I had to think of "harm reduction" or "choosing between two evils". It wasn't a race about who is less bad, but who is the best.
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you americans had a choice of many other good candidates
but you still went with another rapist
it didn't have to come to this
you're "accepting" something you never had to do in the first place
it's just clear most american society share the same mentality, and that there's a big similarity between trump supporters and the "rest" of society which has nothing to do with party differences but your overall political culture. you had people on this forum dismissing biden's rape allegations just like trump supporters did of trump because "it doesn't matter to lead the country and be presidential and win".
you act like there was no choice. a lot of society made it clear they wanted biden despite other candidates.
but you still went with another rapist
it didn't have to come to this
you're "accepting" something you never had to do in the first place
it's just clear most american society share the same mentality, and that there's a big similarity between trump supporters and the "rest" of society which has nothing to do with party differences but your overall political culture. you had people on this forum dismissing biden's rape allegations just like trump supporters did of trump because "it doesn't matter to lead the country and be presidential and win".
you act like there was no choice. a lot of society made it clear they wanted biden despite other candidates.
It's fucked up and plenty of Americans tried to avoid the outcome, but history will only really remember the Victor of the next election and that is what Chomsky is talking about.
What you're saying would make sense if that's the only characteristics of the two, and the only impact of the two choices.
That's not the case. Biden is no Sanders but he is fucking miles from Trump in terms of policy.
The Chomp is right, sadly.
Sure. But when the other guy is Trump, those valid reasons should be put on the back burner until Biden is in power. The lesser of two evils is still the best option than another 4 years of Trump.
Believe me, if I was American i would've been voting for The Bern right up until I couldn't anymore because of his policies and well....not being a rapist.
Sure. But when the other guy is Trump, those valid reasons should be put on the back burner until Biden is in power. The lesser of two evils is still the best option than another 4 years of Trump.
Believe me, if I was American i would've been voting for The Bern right up until I couldn't anymore because of his policies and well....not being a rapist.
Does he not realize the United States crashed and burned because of what amounted to a grave political miscalculation? The Establishment Dems and Anti-Establishment Dems were in competition with another, they viewed each other as the major threat. The Anti-Establishment Dems' fundamental belief that the Establishment Dems represented a form of centrist class solidarity essentially prevented any chance of a coalition effort to bring down the Republicans (who were already working behind the scenes to eliminate any chance of Democratic victory, as we see with the potential collusion with Russia). Keep in mind that no one was expecting Donald Trump to rise into power the way that he did, so he might as well be hiding behind the shadows.
This is obviously a different time, place, and political reality, but the general parallels that Chomsky is speaking to are quite true. Sure the analogy is not perfect, but when are they ever? The lesson is that authoritarian/fascist parties have an easier time rising to power when the opposition isn't united over personal struggle, when they cannot see or underestimate the clear and present danger that challenges them. And what you propose is sacrificing the future of an entire country and its people because one candidate does not pass a purity test? Biden has done terrible things during his political career, whether it is fact or allegation. But does he threaten the very system that could produce a better democracy or this country's influence over leading a world order based in democratic principles? At a domestic level, does he threaten the lives of millions through basic incompetency in handling a deadly pandemic or threaten to remove the health care of millions as well? Does he support such a cruel, zero-tolerance immigration policy that it leads to the separation of families and their consequential psychological abuse by their placement in concentration camps? Does he claim to have absolute power and authority while also referring to the free press as the enemy of the people? Does he deny the existence of climate change? Does he poses the ego to nearly trigger two separate conflicts with two different counties through careless flirtation with war? Does he threaten to stack the Supreme Court with a solid conservative cohort of justices that could impact this country for generations to come? No, clearly Biden is in position to do none of these things, but do you know what he does offer? Not just stability, but an actively changing, relatively progressive platform to what we have scene from other Democratic nominees.
When has willing objection to participating in Democracy ever resulted in a positive outcome? When, in the history of this nation has progress not been achieved through incrementalism but allowing those who appose that same progress power? Talk to any community in this nation who have faced severe adversity throughout our history and ask them how their quality of life has improved. Was it by passively empowering those that fought them, or finding the best allies that the time could allow to protect themselves and improve their lives?
The largest political miscalculation of our time could be the expectation that progress will be accelerated by denying incrementalism in favor of further enabling a threat that constantly challenges the very basis of our democracy. A true progressive is not guaranteed in 2024, not even in an establishment Democrat. The ground we lose this election could quickly transform into a landslide that will take decades to recover from. Republicans are posed to control the fate of our nation if victorious, and I don't think participating in a democratic system as it were a perfect, virtuous outlet for personal expression is irresponsible. Democracy is about creating a majority that will become responsible for the lives they govern, and progress will only be delayed when not following the rules of how our government functions.
Also, an analogy that could help illuminate my point further would be the 1964 election between Barry Goldwater and LBJ. Which racist do you choose? The one that will enable former segregationists, or the one that will go on to adopt the then progressive platform of JFK, and how has the outcome affected history?
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Maybe. But then the same people has to weigh their personal discomfort of voting for Joe vs. the high likelihood of a conservative dominated bench for the supreme court for the next 50? years + whatever interesting decisions Trump can manage to make in additional 4 years as well as the effect of these decisions on the societal divide in the US. The person that can't bring themselves to vote for Joe is setting a priority that comes with a cost. Just because they don't like the choice they have in front of them does not mean they get to pretend that the effects of the choice is not partially their fault.
There are some people that are not going to be able to vote for Joe. Just has to be accepted at this point.
Hopefully they're outnumbered by people who can overlook it and he beats Trump. But this is the bed that has been made.
Trying to get them to, I dunno feel shame in their decision to not vote, won't work.
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I will accept it just fine - but I will still hold these people accountable for the effects of their choice until they rest underneath a stone.
You'd hold it against people who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Biden because of the rape allegations against him?
I don't even know what that looks like.
Of course people accept it, but there's no separate valid reasons for not voting for x pile being counted. It's just another anonymous vote on the day and it just gets counted along with all the others.
That is not entirely what I said: "effects of their choice". If those effects end up being nothing - then it's not like there is anything to address. If it ends up being 50 years of a Supreme Court bench with a conservative bent, a war with Iran and gutting the healthcare system then that is what I will address. Not liking the options dose not absolve you from the effects of your choice.
He's right. Biden kinda sucks but he still would be a more competent and appropriate leader than Trump, by a very long shot. Not a high bar to clear, mind, but once these became the two options you kinda have to vote for the better option of the two. If anything, it does underlie how the two-party system in the USA is not working out well, as this is two elections in a row neither side produced a decent candidate.
If Biden ends up losing, which I hope does not happen, he is the one that should be blamed, not the people who couldn't bring themselves to vote for him.
Sure - if he ends up losing he owns a (large) part of it. But so does the people that decided to not vote etc.,or g** forbid vote for Trump "because they didn't like" Joe.
People who vote Trump have zero excuse obviously, he's worse than Biden with regards to sexual assault.
If Biden ends up losing, which I hope does not happen, he is the one that should be blamed, not the people who couldn't bring themselves to vote for him.
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I don't like words like blame and wrong but that isn't how this works, it is about the voters, you know who is sitting in the red corner.
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I don't like words like blame and wrong but that isn't how this works, it is about the voters, you know who is sitting in the red corner.
Biden isn't the Social Democrat candidate though, he's the Hindenburg to Trump's Hitler.
Not downplaying the KPD/SDP parallels here with non-voters, but Biden's a man who is partially responsible for Trump yet is simultaneously possibly the last line of defence here. He is Hindenburg. The parallels between the two are many.
Not downplaying the KPD/SDP parallels here with non-voters, but Biden's a man who is partially responsible for Trump yet is simultaneously possibly the last line of defence here. He is Hindenburg. The parallels between the two are many.
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Couldn't bring myself to vote for Biden if I was an American
It'd be a spoiled vote from me if a similar scenario was played out in my country
It'd be a spoiled vote from me if a similar scenario was played out in my country
It is a shitty situatuon, no doubt, but a Biden admin is preferable to a Trump admin in literally every other way.
That's fine, but you need to have both ends of the equation in your country, so religious zealots and insane people trying to load the courts and constitution/elections as the other choice.
And the £-shop Mussolini knock off of course.
In countries without a two party system, you have more choices than 'This horrible guy' or 'This even more horrible guy'.
Hardddddddd disagree. Either you're American or so utterly jaded that nothing good happens out of elections anymore.
... AKA American then I guess
... Is this really a thing?
I've never seen or read about NeverBernies. He was far from my first choice but I would have voted for him in a heartbeat.
I wouldn't shame anyone for anything. I would lay out the facts. If they still wanna do it, so be it.
Applies to Trump voters too. How many Trump voters do you think get convinced by random internet ppl? Stop shaming people, stop pursuing them. It's unseemly honestly.
Applies to Trump voters too. How many Trump voters do you think get convinced by random internet ppl? Stop shaming people, stop pursuing them. It's unseemly honestly.
Democratic Leaders Willing to Risk Party Damage to Stop Bernie Sanders (Published 2020)
Interviews with dozens of Democratic Party officials, including 93 superdelegates, found overwhelming opposition to handing Mr. Sanders the nomination if he fell short of a majority of delegates.
I just hope american progressives don't forget that Biden is just a compromise, a delay and hopefully a step in the right direction. It will be very tempting to think everything is fixed if Trump loses but the fact that the best the democratic party could put to beat him was fucking creepy uncle Biden tells the rest of the world that is very possible Trump is not your last republican demagogue because the bar has been lowered permanently.
There's some good lessons though:
Screaming at republicans does nothing but constantly calling your dem lawmakers could steer them in the right direction: political reform, REAL checks and balances and prosecution for all this administration.
Sometimes I think the real sin of Trump wasn't the awful shit he does but the fact that he doesn't allow the american people to look other way like they did for Bush Jr. and many of your previous monsters. That's why I worry you'll forget when you get somebody more "presidential" so please prove me wrong.
There's some good lessons though:
Screaming at republicans does nothing but constantly calling your dem lawmakers could steer them in the right direction: political reform, REAL checks and balances and prosecution for all this administration.
Sometimes I think the real sin of Trump wasn't the awful shit he does but the fact that he doesn't allow the american people to look other way like they did for Bush Jr. and many of your previous monsters. That's why I worry you'll forget when you get somebody more "presidential" so please prove me wrong.
Never said it was. I just wouldn't have involved the Holocaust in the metaphor.
on one hand we have random ERA poster on the other hand its Noam Chomsky
hmm we got a tough one here
hmm we got a tough one here
In a situation where this will determine the survival of Roe v. Wade, those people would be saying, no I don't support Roe v Wade. In a situation where this will determine the preparedness of the US for another disaster, they are saying, no, I don't care about how prepared the US is. ... Live with the consequencues. This election is not about Biden, it is about how the US will look like. A bit too right-wing or a completely insane danger to the world.
I hate-watch Kyle videos because it's fascinating to see a literal grifter in plain sight. He's effectively campaigning for another Trump term at the moment. I absolutely refuse to believe he cares about anything he talks.
As for Noam, I'm happy he's calling busters out. It's an irresponsible decision (which Bernie already said), and frankly it doesn't logically follow. If you believe the allegations, you have to believe the allegations against the president who's on record claiming to grab women by the pussy. At this point, you gotta look how the two candidates differ and who'd suffer under another 4 years of Trump, and whether standing by your principles is worth another 4 years of this trainwreck.
User banned (3 days): Hostility towards another member
Yeah, fuck off. The whole world is fucked and we're dealing with the system we have here. Walk a mile in our shoes.
Signed, somebody who was not for Biden at all, he didn't even make my top 10 in the primaries.
Cast all the stones you want but you are out of line. Jerk.
Pretty sure the allegations gained some steam after super tuesday when the race was just about over
Yeah but if we vote for Biden we run the risk of having Biden as president for 8 years. 8 years! No end to the war on drugs in sight. No meaningful social changes. A vote for Biden is a vote for the idea that a centrist Democrat is a good thing when it is the last thing we need the party to be. My fear is that after 8 years of Biden doing nothing we get 8 years of a republican, and then the country stagnates socially or regresses over the next 16 years.
In the long run it might be better for the nation to deal with Trump for another four years, and then get an actual good Democrat in power that wants to change America for the better. Also then we could finally have a president that's not a rapist.
I'm still voting Biden, but I don't think he's going to win anyway unless Republicans are sick of Trump and sit this next election out.
In the long run it might be better for the nation to deal with Trump for another four years, and then get an actual good Democrat in power that wants to change America for the better. Also then we could finally have a president that's not a rapist.
I'm still voting Biden, but I don't think he's going to win anyway unless Republicans are sick of Trump and sit this next election out.
They don't care. They just want to claim superiority in a whole world that is going generally very poorly despite a ton of well meaning people. Just a loudmouthed asshole.
The alligation didn't really come out main stream until after it was already set in stone.
Seriously, go fuck yourself. This country can't stand a half of a century of a Federalist Society Supreme Court. You talk about "in the long run". In the long run the whole world might be a lot better off without a bunch of half witted false equivalencies but you're not going to help out with that, you are literally part of the problem.
Yea.....unfornately you are very, very wrong. 4 more years of Trump can very likely to do this country in for good....not to mention what it can do globaly with the climate. And there is no kind of gurantee that 4 more years of Trump would then get in someone like Bernie.
It wouldn't even matter who is elected on 2024. A Federalist Society Supreme Court would declare it all, yes all, unconstitutional.
This election is an event horizon.
America voted in Bush senior after 8 years of Reagan, they literally voted in his VP, the second worst republican concerning minorities and the economy and they went to vote for his VP, and after 12 years of conservative republican rule the Americans vote in a centrist democrat Bill Clinton for 8 years, just to fix the shit Reagan and Bush senior did and after that? Another 8 years of conservative rule lead by the neo con warmongers, Bush junior, Dick Cheynie etc... After that? Another centrist democrat Obama and now we have Trump mainly the result of Obama leaning a wee bit to the left with Medicare.
The conclusion? America will never lean left, not for a century, another 4 years of Trump will more than likely embolden his crazies and weaken the faith of the centrists and minorities, Trump has to go yesterday.
He could have used examples of Communist, Socialist and Academic infighting during the early years of the Iranian Revolution as the theocrats consolidated power.
Hitler's rise to power is just a more powerful touchstone in Western minds.
On one hand, he is right.
On the other hand, isn't it about fucking time America realizes this is kinda fucked up? That the only two choices are both rapists? That the two party Presidential system is a complete garbage? That maybe, JUST MAYBE, it's time for a complete reform into proportionally representative parliament?
On the other hand, isn't it about fucking time America realizes this is kinda fucked up? That the only two choices are both rapists? That the two party Presidential system is a complete garbage? That maybe, JUST MAYBE, it's time for a complete reform into proportionally representative parliament?
I am not American so I guess I enjoy the privilege of not having to vote for Biden. But man it would be hard to convince myself to vote for a former segregationist and an accused rapist that played such a major role in fomenting the Iraq War.