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No Quitters Fantasy NFL Football League (Season 11) |OT|

cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
I can't believe it's been 11 years but the NQ League is back again. Basically it's a 16-team, money re-draft league that originated on NeoGAF in 2009. As the name implies, we try to have everyone play to win every week to maintain the integrity of the league. Deadbeats do not get invited back the next year

Last Season's Thread (With links to all previous seasons):



League Page is here (You can check out the Alltime rankings):



LeagueSafe Payment link is here:

https://leaguesafe.com/join/3896806


So far, 15 of the 16 teams from last year have re-joined but if anyone drops out, the waitlist order is below:



compbros - August 11th, 2018
Cyclone - August 21st, 2018
Fox318 - August 23rd, 2018 (last online yesterday)
RedMercury - September 11th, 2018
AllThingsPurple - July 20th, 2019
The Doomed One - July 20th, 2019
Zeusy - July 22nd, 2019

Since the thread is super late this year, I will be very strict with the drop date for non-payers.

PS: UberTag is Co-Commish as usual
 
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Deacon

Deacon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
Just chiming in that as far as draft date is concerned I'd prefer it on a Fri/Sat/Sun evening but could work with another day as long as it starts fairly early. Pretty much fine with whatever on buy-in.
 
grang

grang

Member
Nov 13, 2017
10,040
Yeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaw

I can do a buy in increase to 100 absolute max, but if others are opposed I will be in solidarity with them rather than the other way around
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
Heh, I felt like I had to pull teeth for ages just to get the buy-in up to $75 last season.
I'm actually fine with leaving it there for at least one more year but I'm flexible.
 
rinker

rinker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
19
Even though I'm garbage and it's likely a donation, I'm game for any buy-in.
 
Crazymoogle

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Asia
I'm pretty flexible right now on price and timing, but as usual it's paypal for me...so let me know.

My 10 year keeper league does $100 so I'm fine with last season's price, but again, not a big difference to me
 
OP
OP
cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
So are we set on $100? Anyone against this? Obviously the split will be adjusted accordingly
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
cloudy said:
So are we set on $100? Anyone against this? Obviously the split will be adjusted accordingly
Click to expand...
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What split are you looking at for Top 4 payouts?

Something along the lines of...
1st - $800
2nd - $400
3rd - $250
4th - $150?

My only issue with a higher buy-in is if we'd lose people and find it difficult to keep us 16 teams strong. But if no one's voicing any objections then I'm good with it.
 
Crazymoogle

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Asia
I won't disagree with that UberTag. $75 is more accessible. I guess it depends how many are in. I do the same fee in another league, but it's a 10 year keeper league, so you are buying in for the "long haul". Anyway I'm still good with either, but I would definitely get the teams to vote

I would also say maybe we should start considering format changes?
  • Auction Draft (ESPN/The Ringer, Berry has been advocating this since the Dinosaurs)
  • Points Per First Down instead of PPR (The Ringer made a compelling case for this last season)
  • Advocating 2 QB (The Ringer, I would tend to agree with the reasoning but think 2QB only works if you go superflex, especially in 16 teams)
  • Eliminating Kickers (TFFB piece)
  • Converting DEF into score-up (Draftysports piece, they start out idealistic and then offer an exact yahoo conversion guide at the bottom)
My keeper league is notoriously conservative on rule changes, and they almost unanimously approved the DEF change. We also converted TE to TE/WR...but kicker was held. Sometimes nostalgia is king 😆
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
We can't ditch kickers when we have a veteran team like Good As Gould still in the mix. It just wouldn't be right.
Maybe when Robbie Gould retires we can consider it.

The one suggestion out of that lot I'm legitimately keen on is switching to an auction draft. The others are a little more wonky but a superflex would at least help to offset the occasional Yahoo! positional wonkery that serves as a catalyst for a late-season run... such as Jaylen Samuels last season getting 20+ touches a game in Weeks 11 & 12 last year as a fill-in for James Conner in the TE slot.
 
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Hazelhurst

Hazelhurst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
260
I think the league is fine the way it is. It has really good settings imo. I'm more conservative when it comes to changes in FF, though. Auction draft might be more fair but this should've been suggested a lot sooner. We're less than a month away from Week 1. Maybe shoot for Auction draft next season?
 
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
No more thoughts on this? I'll edit the leaguesafe for the $100 buy-in then. I personally don't want an auction draft but I'd have to consider it If there was huge resistance to a regular draft.

PS: I think PPFD makes a lot of sense
 
TheSkullPrince

TheSkullPrince

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,572
California
Do you guys think the $100 buy-in is going to scare off some of the people who haven't responded yet?

And no auction draft please, I feel it's too late to make a change, maybe for next season if we start discussing it early on.
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
I'd like to think that folks who would be adamantly opposed to $100 buy-in would have chimed in by now if there was much resistance. That said, I agree that making the change sooner was the correct call as it'll afford us time to scout out replacements. We should ideally set a deadline for people in the league to pay up of a week prior to the draft to ensure we'll have sufficient time to find replacements before draft day.

I would be up for the "points per first down" move as something new to try out. My initial read on this is that it will increase the value of consistent chain movers as opposed to the guys who drop at first contact. So slot receivers and scatbacks predominantly.

I agree that while auction drafts are both fun and compelling, it's probably the kind of decision we should make at the end of a season or during the spring to afford more people to acclimate themselves to the idea.

Lastly, another change I would like to see and want to gauge interest in is that we draw for draft position immediately upon all 16 owners covering their entry dues. I would rather have more time to prep for draft day with a specific draft slot/position in mind as opposed to the conventional "find out 30 minutes before you draft" approach. Especially now that we're increasing the stakes to a $100 buy-in.
 
spyder_ur

spyder_ur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,411
I'm good with whatever amount works best for everyone else.

I've brought this up in the past, but I'd still love to see the WR/TE move to a full flex. i think it would make the league more interesting with the deeper rosters and allow different roster building strategies.

It's not hugely important to me though. I'm not big on Points for first down but I'm not strongly opposed. Basically, down for whatever.
 
Corran Horn

Corran Horn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,611
I'm fine with $100. If we did a change I would prefer a keeper or something like that since this is a long running league 😅
 
TheSkullPrince

TheSkullPrince

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,572
California
Looks like everyone is ok with $100 then, maybe we should change our name to the Big Ballers Lea....no wait never mind.

I do like Uber's idea of finding out our draft position in advance, especially since the stakes are high.
 
Minx

Minx

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,229
Illinois
Finding out draft position in advance would be huge and I'm all for that. Points per first down is a good idea but I'm not going to fight hard for any big changes.

Actually, I am big on eliminating kickers.
 
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
Okay so do I need to poll this or can we get ayes or nays in here?

- $100 buy-in vs $75
- See draft order right after league forms
- Replace PPR with PPFD

Did I miss anything else getting popular support? BTW I'm a hard no on kicker elimination


I'm good with all options but if people want to do #2, we all need to pay up before I generate the draft order on Yahoo. No room for buyer's remorse lol

Any more comments on draft date? My rules are this:

It has to be after the 3rd preseason game and before the opener on a weekend

That's just what has worked the best for the most people over the years.
 
OP
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
spyder_ur said:
I'm good with whatever amount works best for everyone else.

I've brought this up in the past, but I'd still love to see the WR/TE move to a full flex. i think it would make the league more interesting with the deeper rosters and allow different roster building strategies.

It's not hugely important to me though. I'm not big on Points for first down but I'm not strongly opposed. Basically, down for whatever.
Click to expand...
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Full flex can't work cos folks will hoard RBs with this many teams
 
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
A change I want to propose is this. Maybe next year if not this year. Not even sure you can do it with 8 playoff teams so I'd have to check (edit yeah you need 6 doh lol)

Top 2 seeds get first round byes.

Over the years we have seen top regular season teams with injuries contemplating tanking to dodge a hot low seed who got an impact player off waivers. There has to be incentive to win the regular season

Another alternative is part of the pool going to the regular season champ
 
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TheSkullPrince

TheSkullPrince

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,572
California
cloudy said:
Okay so do I need to poll this or can we get ayes or nays in here?

- $100 buy-in vs $75
- See draft order right after league forms
- Replace PPR with PPFD
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

-$100
-See draft order right after league forms
-Keep PPR

I'll be able to pay as soon as the email/link is provided.

Draft Date: Sunday September 1st @ 6:00 PM PST/8 PM CT/ 9 PM EST

Since the dues are going up to $100, part of the pool could go to the regular season champ. I'd also like to see 3rd and 4th place get a nice bump as well.
 
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Hazelhurst

Hazelhurst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
260
cloudy said:
- $100 buy-in vs $75
- See draft order right after league forms
- Replace PPR with PPFD
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
  • $100 buy-in
  • Don't see draft order until right before draft
  • PPR (.5 point)

Some of the extra money could go towards the team with most points that doesn't make playoffs? Also, pay bump to all places, especially 3rd and 4th.
 
Crazymoogle

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Asia
To be honest, I know a lot of players here are habitual, so changes can be tough to make. But if I can campaign for a few anyway:

Superflex (RB/WR/TE/QB slot)
Basically, I disagree with the assertion that adding RB to flex will dry out the market. In 16 teams it puts that much more pressure, but ultimately if you want a true draft of value, superflex is the way to go, particularly in big leagues. It's actually *infusing* talent into the draft by making you decide if you want, say, Sam Darnold in the flex, or that 3rd RB you found or that 3rd receiver. And on average those second half QBs are not scoring a lot of points per week. I just think that's a lot more interesting than the league draining the WR pool down to the Bills 3rd receiver.

Sure, in the draft itself, most of the QBs are going to be taken. But if you go too hard on QB, somebody gets the value on RB or WR. And by the time you hit the season and we all triage our rosters, there's simply just more on the waiver wire this way. So I think it's actually the *most* responsible thing you can do in a 16 team league. You're adding basically 32 players to the draft pool that are more valuable than our current last few rounds.

Upward Scoring DEF
This one is the real breakthrough, I think. DEF starts at zero and gains and loses points like other positions. The basic trick is:
  • Start at Zero
  • -1 point for pts against (in tiers, so max -5) starting at 7
  • -1 point for yards against (in tiers also, so max-5) starting at 300yds
  • All of the usual special teams scoring, but a few enhancements:
  • K/PR TD is 8 points
  • Interceptions are p3ts
  • Fumbles are split into fumbles (1) and rumble recovery (1)
  • 4th down stop is 1
  • Safety is 4
  • Blocked kick is 3
  • Optionally they also suggest tackle for loss (0.5) and three-and-out (0.5)
This article covers it all and has how to specifically edit Yahoo leagues.
 
Deacon

Deacon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
  • $100 buy-in
  • honestly no preference on when draft order is decided
  • Liking PPFD
Liking the Upward Scoring DEF Crazymoogle posted above as well.
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
I agree with my fellow Canadian that if any change is made to the WR/TE slot it should be to be made a Superflex spot as opposed to simply adding RB to the mix which would really deplete the waiver wire. That said, I'm not entirely sold on the idea either... we had some QB hoarding going on last season as well in hopes of cashing in on a desperate owner or two once the injury bug struck and having nothing left on the wire outside of the Nathan Petermans of the world might prove problematic.

I'm all for tweaking the D/ST settings... although drastic changes may not be necessary. ESPN defense scoring is trash but Yahoo!'s defaults are much more fair and balanced.

I'm not opposed to reserving part of the pool outside of the Top 4 spots for a side payout... although I would be more partial to reserving extra funds for the team with the most points scored (regardless of final position) as opposed to whomever winds up with the best regular season record. We've seen the scheduling gods be a cruel mistress before and this would just further rub salt on those wounds.

If the whole purpose is to just avoid late-season tanking, instead of a payout to the team with the best record or the team with the most points, you could offer a payout to the team that scores the most combined points in Weeks 11-13 (or Weeks 12 & 13). Truth be told, I haven't seen too much questionable tanking plays in the last couple seasons.

And you'd think I'd be a proponent of boosting the payouts for 2nd, 3rd & 4th place given the 6 times I've finished in those spots the past 8 seasons... but I'm actually kind of against it. I like the idea of having lots at stake in Week 16 and it not simply being a case of the top four teams having a buy-in between them to fight over and giving each other a big Christmas "everybody wins" hug at the end.

That said, the above logic does NOT come into play when it comes to the difference between 2nd and 3rd place. If we're to prop up the payout of the 4th place team beyond the 1.5 times (or so) payout it typically winds up with, I'd prefer that the two "in the money" teams that finish Weeks 15 & 16 at 1-1 wind up with similar amounts.

Perhaps something like this...

1st - $600
2nd - $400
3rd - $300
4th - $200
Best League Record / Total Points Scored / Best Week 11-13 Record (whichever we choose) - $100
 
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Crazymoogle

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Asia
UberTag said:
I agree with my fellow Canadian that if any change is made to the WR/TE slot it should be to be made a Superflex spot as opposed to simply adding RB to the mix which would really deplete the waiver wire. That said, I'm not entirely sold on the idea either... we had some QB hoarding going on last season as well in hopes of cashing in on a desperate owner or two once the injury bug struck and having nothing left on the wire outside of the Nathan Petermans of the world might prove problematic.
Click to expand...
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Of course, I mean I had to start one of the dregs last year too; bad Trubisky, bad Bucs, etc. But the point is, if you double or triple up, you're doing that at the cost of RB or WR value instead. And our benches are short one compared to most leagues, so if you want a third as your backup, you're hit hard there too. Waiver pickups are not as much of a no-brainer when you're trying to protect backups and your third QB is taking 20% of your bench. Let's say 32-40 QBs go in the draft - that means the worst RB/WR you pick is 20-24 picks better than before, the waiver pool is two rounds deeper, and it becomes a serious strategy of "do I start RB, WR, or QB at Superflex"? every week.
 
TheSkullPrince

TheSkullPrince

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,572
California
UberTag said:
Perhaps something like this...

1st - $600
2nd - $400
3rd - $300
4th - $200
Best League Record / Total Points Scored / Best Week 11-13 Record (whichever we choose) - $100
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Seems like this payout scheme would be the most fair.

As far as including a QB in the Flex, I'm not a big fan of the idea. As Uber said, people we hoarding QBs last season and I'd rather not deal with that again lol
 
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
Leaguesafe link has been updated for $100. As usual our Canadian friends can paypal me. Let's get the payments in ASAP as we continue to discuss other options
 
UberTag

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Kitchener, ON
Crazymoogle said:
Of course, I mean I had to start one of the dregs last year too; bad Trubisky, bad Bucs, etc. But the point is, if you double or triple up, you're doing that at the cost of RB or WR value instead. And our benches are short one compared to most leagues, so if you want a third as your backup, you're hit hard there too. Waiver pickups are not as much of a no-brainer when you're trying to protect backups and your third QB is taking 20% of your bench. Let's say 32-40 QBs go in the draft - that means the worst RB/WR you pick is 20-24 picks better than before, the waiver pool is two rounds deeper, and it becomes a serious strategy of "do I start RB, WR, or QB at Superflex"? every week.
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It's not so much the draft scenario I'm worried about when it comes to QBs so much as the QB outlook post-course correction (after the first month of the season). When it's established how each QB is going to consistently perform with their new team dynamic and offensive coordinators. Not too many emerged out of the trash heap into some semblance of weekly usability late last season outside of Josh Allen. (The point about our shallow benches is sound, however.)

The other problem with the scenario is our QB scoring. It's somewhat inflated. The QB20 or QB21 in our league last year - someone like Matthew Stafford - would be the RB11 or WR11 in total fantasy points given our scoring format. So even the chopped liver QBs are going to be trotted out in superflex spots simply because that decision is just going to pay off more than an RB or WR most weeks. Which means the guys with 2 or 3 of them are probably going to want to keep them versus wanting to even trade them away.

Yeah, there will be more RBs and WRs to be found on the wire as a result (most notably the bottom-tier WR market will be flooded with viable options) but it also means that the guy who only drafts one playable QB and then loses them is going to be especially screwed. They may not actually HAVE a rosterable QB available to them on the wire and then we're looking at teams taking zeroes at the position in pivotal matchups. It's one thing to take a flier on a wide receiver or running back that could be used and getting a zero... but going into the week with a bench QB that likely won't see the ball barring 4th quarter use in a blowout is... a deflating prospect. I wouldn't wish that on anyone with a $100 buy-in.

So while I'm pro-superflex versus pro-adding RB into the flex equation, we would need to reassess QB scoring if we went that route. We'd probably need a heavier sack penalty, heavier penalties for throwing a pick 6, heavier penalties for fumbling, three and outs, etc. I'd suggest a roster restriction at the position as well - such as a rule saying you could only roster 2 QBs at once - except for the fact that said roster restriction is not available at Yahoo! I believe only ESPN leagues offer that. Hence why I consider superflex to be more viable for ESPN and/or best-ball leagues versus season-long Yahoo.

One last suggestion I'll throw out there... is whether there's any interest in adding an IR slot to our league so players can stash someone that's injured and may return later in the season?
 
Hazelhurst

Hazelhurst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
260
UberTag said:
Perhaps something like this...

1st - $600
2nd - $400
3rd - $300
4th - $200
Best League Record / Total Points Scored / Best Week 11-13 Record (whichever we choose) - $100
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Cool with that. I think the team with most points who doesn't make the playoffs should get that $100, but that's just me. They more than likely had a very frustrating season based on unlucky schedule.
 
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cloudy

cloudy

Member
Nov 10, 2017
3,256
$500 1st
$400 2nd
$300 3rd
$100 4th

$200 to regular season champ
$100 to scoring champ

Thoughts?
 
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