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Nintendo should make more 3d platformers (Arlo)
- Thread starter ClickyCal'
- Start date
OP
OP
I agree with that. Yoshi I think can work in an open world though.
The question is not "Is there a market for 3D platformers?", the question is "How much more would a 3D Kirby sell compared to a 2D Kirby?"
Because it is clear that the costs would be higher. Are there many people who ignore Kirby games willing to buy one in 3D?
Because it is clear that the costs would be higher. Are there many people who ignore Kirby games willing to buy one in 3D?
OP
OP
I think if they revealed a new bigger 3d kirby game, it would excite a lot more people. A lot of people kind of glazed over when they revealed what looked like just another standard modern 2d kirby in 2017.
Donkey Kong 3D World seems like such an obvious move I'm surprised now that Retro hasn't already done it. HAL actually prototyped 3D Kirby platformers on N64 and GC iirc. Be great to see them go through with it some day.
It's weird to think after all these years Nintendo's only really made ten 3D platformers since 1996 (not counting Rare's properties) and one was a remake.
It's weird to think after all these years Nintendo's only really made ten 3D platformers since 1996 (not counting Rare's properties) and one was a remake.
- Super Mario 64 (N64) 1996
- Donkey Kong 64 (N64) 1999 Rare
- Super Mario Sunshine (GC) 2002
- Wario World (GC) 2003 Treasure
- Super Mario 64 DS (DS) 2004
- Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) 2007
- Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Wii) 2010
- Super Mario 3D Land (3DS) 2011
- Super Mario 3D World (WU) 2013
- Super Mario Odyssey (NSW) 2017
I think 3D World would be exactly the model for a 3D DKC. Linear, tight and mechanics focused. Retro isn't Rare and I doubt they'd be interested in doing anything close to resembling a DK64 2.
I could see Kirby moving more towards an exploratory/collection/objective based style (a la 64/Sunshine/Odyssey) then so do the 2D games. Hell they even moved into metroidvania-lite with Superstar and Amazing Mirror.
3D Donkey Kong in totally open world DK Island like Breath of the Wild. However, there's more interactivity with swinging, throwing coconuts, riding animal buddies, etc.. Make it a fun playground and connect the jungle to a river which leads to a cave which comes out in the sea where you swim up on the beach. Make it seamless but still have multiple paths. Basically like a huge theme park with lots of verticality with trees, tree villages, girders, minecart rails, etc..
Add K. Rool with a new disguise along with kremlins. Finally, have Dave Wise compose the soundtrack.
Center the level design around having every corner of world full of interaction and smaller levels within levels. Totally be open world but also feel like a hundred well designed levels all mashed together seamlessly.
Add K. Rool with a new disguise along with kremlins. Finally, have Dave Wise compose the soundtrack.
Center the level design around having every corner of world full of interaction and smaller levels within levels. Totally be open world but also feel like a hundred well designed levels all mashed together seamlessly.
Donkey Kong has to learn to be a father figure to Diddy while dealing with his PTSD caused by the Great Ape War.
The capture mechanic itself was the least interesting part of Cappy. Cap jumping and the crazy combinations you could put together to link amazing jumps made Mario's moveset way richer than it ever was before SMO. For that reason, I actually enjoyed the postgame more than than the campaign. First time through your navigating by capturing enemies. Second time through I said screw capture and used my moveset with cappy to get around the world mostly, cap jumping over places I had needed to capture bullet bill the first time through, etc.
Mario's regular moveset is going to seem dull if there is no cappy.
I know this is a joke and all, but if DK Jr. finally came back from the Great Ape War, estranged from his son Donkey Kong and dealing with some serious personal trauma, I would be 10000% there for it.
The funniest thing about the Great Ape War is that is not even canon, is just something that the fanbase made connecting dots.
Growing really bored with Arlo's videos where he struggles to see that people have different tastes than him. I don't think a 3D Donkey Kong game would light the world on fire, Mario Odyssey did well because it was a good Mario game on a massively popular platform reminiscent of Mario 64, a very popular game. Also using VG Chartz as a source to push his point on sales is bad, at best they have guestimates of physical Switch sales.
Maybe Yoshi and Kirby could join forces in a 3D platformer where their worlds are literally interwoven with the craft/wool world. Levels would mash up Kirby and Yoshi level designs and enemies.
Kirby riding Yoshi! How funny would that be!
Kirby riding Yoshi! How funny would that be!
I was questioning where he had the Wii U Tropical Freeze sales higher than the Switch version, as I'm fairly certain the Switch version surpassed it fairly quickly.
You're right I totally forgot to mention Cappy. Yes that was a legit improvement on Marios platforming capabilities. But the dev team was so focused on capture segments that we rarely had reason to use Cappy as a platform enrichment mechanism.
I agree that there needs to be more 3D platformers, but his rationale feels flawed and on selective evidence.
He doesn't mention how many 2d Marios have outsold their 3D counter parts (the NSMB series specifically) or how other major non-Nintendo 3D platformers fail you reach the sales than their non-platformer peers sell. He also just generally ignores non-Nintendo released platformers (Ratchet, Astrobot, Gravity Rush, etc.) in the claim that the genre is dead.
He doesn't mention how many 2d Marios have outsold their 3D counter parts (the NSMB series specifically) or how other major non-Nintendo 3D platformers fail you reach the sales than their non-platformer peers sell. He also just generally ignores non-Nintendo released platformers (Ratchet, Astrobot, Gravity Rush, etc.) in the claim that the genre is dead.
Arlo's generally ignores stuff he hasn't played in almost all of his points, so odds are he never tried them. Normally this wouldn't bother me, You can't really talk about what you haven't played, but the fact he makes these points about genres being dead/nonexistent can be very infuriating.
He also failed to mention the fact that tons of modern open world games like Assassins Creed, Spider-Man, and many others take heaps of inspiration from 3D platformers even though they aren't quite just 3D platformers. Uncharted was a decent choice but there's way better examples with the genre in their DNA. It seems really shortsighted and makes his point which does have some validity to it feel kind of cheap.
Champion's Road was a nightmare, if you went for the three green stars. A damn beautiful nightmare.
The way I see it, 3D Mario is a character with such a versatile move set that it creates a bit of a dilemma for Nintendo.
Say they made a 3D Donkey Kong that had the same move set as his 2D counterpart (i.e. jump, roll, grab, throw, swing from vines). Wouldn't that 3D DK just be a more limited, less interesting version of 3D Mario, who can already do like 90% of those things?
Okay, so what if they came up with a whole suite of additional mechanics to differentiate 3D DK from 3D Mario?This could work in theory but I really struggle to think of very many mechanics that 3D Mario hasn't already covered. Again, I think they would wind up with a less interesting version of something they have already created.
But what if they based 3D DK's design on 3D Mario's, giving him a long jump, butt stomp/ground slap, sideways jump and the ability to swing on vines and climb grassy surfaces? Well, at that point they might as well just add DK as a playable character to a 3D Mario game or simply give those mechanics to 3D Mario as a power-up.
I see the same issue with respect to 3D Kirby and Yoshi. I guess I just don't get what Nintendo has to gain from a design perspective from making 3D platformers other than Mario. If anything, it would seem that doing so would, in a weird way, merely diminish the potential of future 3D Mario games.
Say they made a 3D Donkey Kong that had the same move set as his 2D counterpart (i.e. jump, roll, grab, throw, swing from vines). Wouldn't that 3D DK just be a more limited, less interesting version of 3D Mario, who can already do like 90% of those things?
Okay, so what if they came up with a whole suite of additional mechanics to differentiate 3D DK from 3D Mario?This could work in theory but I really struggle to think of very many mechanics that 3D Mario hasn't already covered. Again, I think they would wind up with a less interesting version of something they have already created.
But what if they based 3D DK's design on 3D Mario's, giving him a long jump, butt stomp/ground slap, sideways jump and the ability to swing on vines and climb grassy surfaces? Well, at that point they might as well just add DK as a playable character to a 3D Mario game or simply give those mechanics to 3D Mario as a power-up.
I see the same issue with respect to 3D Kirby and Yoshi. I guess I just don't get what Nintendo has to gain from a design perspective from making 3D platformers other than Mario. If anything, it would seem that doing so would, in a weird way, merely diminish the potential of future 3D Mario games.
The thing people tend to brush aside is that Nintendo's 3D platformer output two decades ago was largely because of Rare and how they operated as a Nintendo partner. They made Banjo-Kazooie because they were inspired by Mario 64, and then Tooie, DK64, and Conker's Bad Fur Day. Nintendo published a good number of 3D platformers, non-Mario 3D platformers at that, because those were the games Rare was interested in making.
Contrast that with today, and Nintendo's external partners are more interested in working with other genres or have different goals.
OP
OP
Yea, but that doesn't ignore that they have 3 series that have been stuck on 2d plats for a long time, and could evolve with going 3d. DK would fit the 3d world style more than even mario did with having co-op, multiple characters with different abilities, and just make the levels a little more explorable. Yoshi has already been usuable multiple times in 3d mario games and even had 3d hub worlds recently. Kirby would be harder to really translate, but would do a lot for the series. This wouldn't take away potential other new experiments because it would be just trying new things with series that have been set on one thing.
Why is shifting to 3D considered evolution these days? Kirby is trying new things all of the time in 2D.
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I mean star allies really wasn't anything ground breaking honestly. It was more modern 2d kirby. They can add some new gimmick, but trying a 3d game could go to the next level and be more different than just giving kirby hyper nova or something. I think it makes even more sense for dk and yoshi though honestly.
Kirby's thing is being the super accessible 2D platformer.
It's the difference in level design. 3D World's levels has to accommodate more players, so 3D Land's levels end up being more tightly designed for solo play.
It's the difference in level design. 3D World's levels has to accommodate more players, so 3D Land's levels end up being more tightly designed for solo play.
Yep, problem with 3D Worlds is it's was made with multiplayers in mind, so the level design was hurt because of this.
I liked it, make no mistake, but 3D Land is way superior.
Designing and developing a 3D Kirby may simply not be what the Kirby devs want to do. Saying "This...but in THREEEEEEEE DEEEEEEEEE" is one thing, but devs having the time, budget, and interest is something else.
Kirby and Yoshi also aren't intrinsically worse or lesser for sticking to 2D. They have design flows and concepts that work fantastic in 2D and that dont have necessity in making a 3D jump.
OP
OP
Kirby I agree with about that more, but not as much with yoshi. The 3d mario games have shown he can control good in 3d with his basic moves. Now just add in his egg aiming. The yoshi games are about exploring levels and finding all the secrets, and that can translate even more to 3d. It's like transitioning metroid to 3d and how it worked for prime.
Eh, it seems that nowadays most of the developers seem to have finally cracked on how to make a decent/good 2D platformers, 3D platformers are still elusive but they were always hard to do right because even when they were common many of them were pretty bad and it even killed a few old series. Of Nintendo Kirby MIGHT work on a 3D Land/World style but that's about that.
I bet Nintendo/RARE thought the same in the late 90s.
surejan.gif
I bet Nintendo/RARE thought the same in the late 90s.
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I've brought this up before but TheGeekCritique mentioned in his DK64 video that a 3D Donkey Kong game could have been Nintendo's answer to Crash Bandicoot: a very difficult, obstacle course like game with an emphasis on precision, speed and momentum. I played Donkey Kong Country and the first two Crash games the same year and honestly I agree with him, and I'm a fan of DK64. I'd be fine with either, but I think a more linear 3D Donkey Kong would be a good fit.
Exactly right. 3D Land is a lot of fun in Multiplayer, but in terms of level design, they just had to make way too many concessions. 3D Land was just bliss, I played through that game 4-5 times and it's just sooooo good.
I'd much rather have a new 2D Mario actually...
Like, an actually new one with a new graphical style, not another NSMB game.
Like, an actually new one with a new graphical style, not another NSMB game.
Yoshi controlled so well and added so much to Sunshine, Galaxy 2 and Odyssey I thought there would have been a 3D Yoshi generations ago. I've been waiting for such long time!
I love the way the tongue works with pointer controls, I love how his tongue sticks to walls in Odyssey and now I just want him to launch eggs in 3rd person. 3D Yoshi has been a dream of mine since the N64 and it just hasn't happened yet.
Donkey Kong can go big open sand box stages or go nuts and go open world, I don't care. Just make areas dense so the Kongs and the animal buddies can traverse in a way that feels and looks amazing. Taking Mario through New Donk City is so fun! Just jumping between buildings and swinging off of everything! That times 100! Super large trees with vines everywhere and a climbing mechanic that makes moving from tree to tree feel like swinging across the city as Spider-Man.
Donkey Kong could easily adopt its old SNES eerie realistic art style to set it apart from Mario(that uses the realistic and the abstract now). Watching DK move in Jungle Beat and Country Returns/Tropical Freeze is a sight to see when someone knows what they are doing. Faster paced "Secret Of" sections can be littered throughout, mine carts, etc. Different animals offering different traversal and gameplay options man... There is so much untapped potential!
2D doesn't have to go away. Doesn't matter if 2D sells more either. Give us both!
I love the way the tongue works with pointer controls, I love how his tongue sticks to walls in Odyssey and now I just want him to launch eggs in 3rd person. 3D Yoshi has been a dream of mine since the N64 and it just hasn't happened yet.
Donkey Kong can go big open sand box stages or go nuts and go open world, I don't care. Just make areas dense so the Kongs and the animal buddies can traverse in a way that feels and looks amazing. Taking Mario through New Donk City is so fun! Just jumping between buildings and swinging off of everything! That times 100! Super large trees with vines everywhere and a climbing mechanic that makes moving from tree to tree feel like swinging across the city as Spider-Man.
Donkey Kong could easily adopt its old SNES eerie realistic art style to set it apart from Mario(that uses the realistic and the abstract now). Watching DK move in Jungle Beat and Country Returns/Tropical Freeze is a sight to see when someone knows what they are doing. Faster paced "Secret Of" sections can be littered throughout, mine carts, etc. Different animals offering different traversal and gameplay options man... There is so much untapped potential!
2D doesn't have to go away. Doesn't matter if 2D sells more either. Give us both!
We shall see how it goes and it could very weel be nothing, but between that one Kirby minigame and the final boss in Star Allies, HAL seems to be at least flirting with the idea of exploring the franchise in 3D.
This is to say nothing of the level design and the way the game is set-up. An implied 3D DK wouldn't necessarily be a Mario 3D World or Odyssey with the ape instead of the plumber. A few posts up someone brought up the idea of a 3D DK being Nintendo's Crash Bandicoot, for example, and I find that idea especially fitting, since Crash was allegedly conceived when Naughty Dogs looked at SNES DKC games and wondered what it would be like if you shifted the perspective.
No, instead Kirby is some weird, understated platformer beat em up hybrid. You absorb powers and use them to beat up on enemies and solve some really light puzzles. 90% of what Kirby can do is about is dispensing cutesy violence and destruction, rather than traversal, for the basic floating suffices for just about any platforming "challenge" the games might throw at you.
i don't see why this would change in 3D.
I don't think the difference between platformers is just down to movesets. DKC wouldn't become obsolete if you added rolling to NSMB, because there's also a matter of physics and how characters feel to control. The very act of jumping feels different between Mario and Donkey Kong.
This is to say nothing of the level design and the way the game is set-up. An implied 3D DK wouldn't necessarily be a Mario 3D World or Odyssey with the ape instead of the plumber. A few posts up someone brought up the idea of a 3D DK being Nintendo's Crash Bandicoot, for example, and I find that idea especially fitting, since Crash was allegedly conceived when Naughty Dogs looked at SNES DKC games and wondered what it would be like if you shifted the perspective.
With Kirby, differentiation is even simpler, much simpler, because Kirby barely focuses on platforming as is. You don't really play a Kirby game for tightly timed jumps and ample acrobatics. If you were to plop Kirby down in 2D Mario or DKC, you could probably go through most levels by holding right and tapping A repeatedly.
No, instead Kirby is some weird, understated platformer beat em up hybrid. You absorb powers and use them to beat up on enemies and solve some really light puzzles. 90% of what Kirby can do is about is dispensing cutesy violence and destruction, rather than traversal, for the basic floating suffices for just about any platforming "challenge" the games might throw at you.
i don't see why this would change in 3D.
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My problem with what you are saying is that I strongly suspect that most gamers who want these series to make the jump want an open, exploration style 3D platformer like Mario. They want to see these worlds fully realized and explorable in 3d. I think Arlo certainly does. I don't think a more linear Crash-style platformer would do it for DK fans looking for a follow-up to DK64 for example.
I like the idea of a combat-centric 3D Kirby game, though. It could be Nintendo's take on a stylish character action game. A hybrid between beat'em up and platformer. Kind of like that 3D Wario game but more fleshed out.
lol
Oh god, the stench of people paradoxically preferring 3D Land over 3D World has taken over another thread
I didn't even know this was a debate...3D World absolutely stomps all over 3D Land, its a vastly superior and more creative game in almost every way, rivaled only by Galaxy 1 and topped only by Galaxy 2.
And this is coming from someone who'd put 3D Land in his top 5 favorite handheld games of all time.
I'm not really a fan of Arlo and his videos simply because we're diametrically opposed as Nintendo fans; we have very different ideas of what we want Nintendo to do with their games n' whatnot, and this video is a perfect example of that.
I agree with the general premise that Nintendo should make more 3D platformers, BUT his ideas for 3D DK, Kirby, and Yoshi are all just "make it a sandbox collectathon game" and I really, REALLY don't fuckin' want that.
If Nintendo is gonna get Retro or whoever to make a 3D DK I'd rather they completely ignore the travesty that is DK64 and make a game that is basically Crash Bandicoot/3D World with the crazy spectacle present within the likes of Tropical Freeze.
Like, if they wanted to do another collectathon, I'd rather see them translate the Wario Land series into 3D; those games are already very explorative and focused on collecting stuff.
I've got nothing against the man/puppeteer behind the channel btw, he seems like a passionate and wholesome guy.
Yeah.
Within one of his Odyssey videos he basically implies that 3D World is some passionless game made by developers who were just "hunched over their computers adjusting platform distances" rather than being a creative endeavor like Odyssey...Ugh :/
Because shit like Odyssey and Galaxy are possible.
I appreciate 3D World/Land for what it is, but for me it just doesn't compare to the fully 360 degree movement and free camera in fully organic worlds.
Isn't that what he said? Over half way in he said reduce the number of collectables and instead focus on combat. I think elements of 3D World's controls would help that along.
That's why he suggested it would be a better fit for Kirby than DK.
It was a very well-made game. The problem was the old guard wanted Mario games and to make 3D. But people don't buy them. SO they made 3D World as a compromise. Galaxy and 3D games were designed as compromises for people who didn't get the 3D games the Old Guard wanted to make. They were forcing it which affected their design decisions. And these were all great games and super well made. The problem is that they didn't do what the 2D Mario fans wanted. Or the Sandbox Mario fans wanted. This is why NSMB games keep selling despite being under developed but well produced (as always) and Odyssey sold massive. They aren't compromising by trying to join the two fan bases.
Miyamoto hates 2D Mario and wishes it would go away. Odyssey was an explicit rejection of their compromise attempt. They don't even list it as a game in the same category as 2D Mario or Galaxy/3D. The list it with 64/Sunshine. Lots of young folk at Nintendo would love to make a fully fledged out 2d SMB. And many loved making a Sandbox/Starfinder game.
And they all took pride in Galaxy/3D. But those games were designed to be just formulaic enough to trick stupid 2D SMB fans like myself. (I loved Galaxy but for different reasons.)