Yeah because Odyssey and N. Sane Trilogy did so poorlyI don't think there's much of a market for 3d platformers
Also they are much more complex to make than 2d ones. Not better but more complex
I agree with that. Yoshi I think can work in an open world though.The only way I would be interested in a Kirby / Donkey Kong 3D would be if they had the mold of 3D World.
Open world, nope.
I think if they revealed a new bigger 3d kirby game, it would excite a lot more people. A lot of people kind of glazed over when they revealed what looked like just another standard modern 2d kirby in 2017.The question is not "Is there a market for 3D platformers?", the question is "How much more would a 3D Kirby sell compared to a 2D Kirby?"
Because it is clear that the costs would be higher. Are there many people who ignore Kirby games willing to buy one in 3D?
But It sold a ton, I don't talk about forum Bubble.I think if they revealed a new bigger 3d kirby game, it would excite a lot more people. A lot of people kind of glazed over when they revealed what looked like just another standard modern 2d kirby in 2017.
I think 3D World would be exactly the model for a 3D DKC. Linear, tight and mechanics focused. Retro isn't Rare and I doubt they'd be interested in doing anything close to resembling a DK64 2.The only way I would be interested in a Kirby / Donkey Kong 3D would be if they had the mold of 3D World.
Open world, nope.
CINEMATIC linear Donkey Kong!The only way I would be interested in a Kirby / Donkey Kong 3D would be if they had the mold of 3D World.
Open world, nope.
Donkey Kong has to learn to be a father figure to Diddy while dealing with his PTSD caused by the Great Ape War.
I still want a focused Mario sandbox game. Odyssey was too much time in a simple 1 move captured thing. Also the art styles clashed. I just want a sandbox Mario where you take on interesting geometry as Mario himself and his rich moveset. I don't want even 1 second as 2D Mario from the very first game. We have Mario Maker. We have NSMB. I don't need a squirt gun. I don't need a power up. I want to be wall kicking, triple jumping, drop kicking, cartwheel flipping, long jumping, belly sliding all over complex moving environments and contraptions. Anything else is a let down because it's not that.
I know this is a joke and all, but if DK Jr. finally came back from the Great Ape War, estranged from his son Donkey Kong and dealing with some serious personal trauma, I would be 10000% there for it.Donkey Kong has to learn to be a father figure to Diddy while dealing with his PTSD caused by the Great Ape War.
The funniest thing about the Great Ape War is that is not even canon, is just something that the fanbase made connecting dots.I know this is a joke and all, but if DK Jr. finally came back from the Great Ape War, estranged from his son Donkey Kong and dealing with some serious personal trauma, I would be 10000% there for it.
I was questioning where he had the Wii U Tropical Freeze sales higher than the Switch version, as I'm fairly certain the Switch version surpassed it fairly quickly.Growing really bored with Arlo's videos where he struggles to see that people have different tastes than him. I don't think a 3D Donkey Kong game would light the world on fire, Mario Odyssey did well because it was a good Mario game on a massively popular platform reminiscent of Mario 64, a very popular game. Also using VG Chartz as a source to push his point on sales is bad, at best they have guestimates of physical Switch sales.
Regarding the video, here's my take, and note that I love 3D platformers.
As games pushed more towards realism, 3D platformers had their basic ideas of motion in a 3D space incorporated into more complex genres, while the pure form of the genre basically requires a cartoon character protagonist to justify a satisfying jump without looking ridiculous. Cartoony characters became more stigmatized in video games with the rise of FPS and other more mature content, but Mario alone was still able to thrive in the genre due to being intrinsically tied to his movement and jump, and being Mario, the most beloved character in video games. Other characters weren't as lucky and had to either be retooled or forgotten.
To Arlo's points, I would appreciate new 3D platformers, but I don't really think there's any basis they would sell especially well. Mario Odyssey is selling very well, but it hasn't really touched the heights of 2D Mario. Metroid Prime sold better than Super Metroid, but it's sequels dropped off quite a bit. And regarding Yoshi and Kirby, if there's a gameplay concept that 3D would be required for, then great! But if it's just for the sake of being a 3D, that doesn't always work out for the best (look at Sonic, where while the 3D games did well, it's not exactly controversial to say they never quite nailed the 3D transition as well as his Nintendo counterpart).
You're right I totally forgot to mention Cappy. Yes that was a legit improvement on Marios platforming capabilities. But the dev team was so focused on capture segments that we rarely had reason to use Cappy as a platform enrichment mechanism.The capture mechanic itself was the least interesting part of Cappy. Cap jumping and the crazy combinations you could put together to link amazing jumps made Mario's moveset way richer than it ever was before SMO. For that reason, I actually enjoyed the postgame more than than the campaign. First time through your navigating by capturing enemies. Second time through I said screw capture and used my moveset with cappy to get around the world mostly, cap jumping over places I had needed to capture bullet bill the first time through, etc.
Mario's regular moveset is going to seem dull if there is no cappy.
I agree that there needs to be more 3D platformers, but his rationale feels flawed and on selective evidence.
He doesn't mention how many 2d Marios have outsold their 3D counter parts (the NSMB series specifically) or how other major non-Nintendo 3D platformers fail you reach the sales than their non-platformer peers sell. He also just generally ignores non-Nintendo released platformers (Ratchet, Astrobot, Gravity Rush, etc.) in the claim that the genre is dead.
Champion's Road was a nightmare, if you went for the three green stars. A damn beautiful nightmare.Hard disagree. 3D World is one of the best Mario games ever. I played the entire game in multiplayer. I had so much fun. Best multiplayer platformer ever
The thing people tend to brush aside is that Nintendo's 3D platformer output two decades ago was largely because of Rare and how they operated as a Nintendo partner. They made Banjo-Kazooie because they were inspired by Mario 64, and then Tooie, DK64, and Conker's Bad Fur Day. Nintendo published a good number of 3D platformers, non-Mario 3D platformers at that, because those were the games Rare was interested in making.The way I see it, 3D Mario is a character with such a versatile move set that it creates a bit of a dilemma for Nintendo.
Say they made a 3D Donkey Kong that had the same move set as his 2D counterpart (i.e. jump, roll, grab, throw, swing from vines). Wouldn't that 3D DK just be a more limited, less interesting version of 3D Mario, who can already do like 90% of those things?
Okay, so what if they came up with a whole suite of additional mechanics to differentiate 3D DK from 3D Mario?This could work in theory but I really struggle to think of very many mechanics that 3D Mario hasn't already covered. Again, I think they would wind up with a less interesting version of something they have already created.
But what if they based 3D DK's design on 3D Mario's, giving him a long jump, butt stomp/ground slap, sideways jump and the ability to swing on vines and climb grassy surfaces? Well, at that point they might as well just add DK as a playable character to a 3D Mario game or simply give those mechanics to 3D Mario as a power-up.
I see the same issue with respect to 3D Kirby and Yoshi. I guess I just don't get what Nintendo has to gain from a design perspective from making 3D platformers other than Mario. If anything, it would seem that doing so would, in a weird way, merely diminish the potential of future 3D Mario games.
Yea, but that doesn't ignore that they have 3 series that have been stuck on 2d plats for a long time, and could evolve with going 3d. DK would fit the 3d world style more than even mario did with having co-op, multiple characters with different abilities, and just make the levels a little more explorable. Yoshi has already been usuable multiple times in 3d mario games and even had 3d hub worlds recently. Kirby would be harder to really translate, but would do a lot for the series. This wouldn't take away potential other new experiments because it would be just trying new things with series that have been set on one thing.The thing people tend to brush aside is that Nintendo's 3D platformer output two decades ago was largely because of Rare and how they operated as a Nintendo partner. They made Banjo-Kazooie because they were inspired by Mario 64, and then Tooie, DK64, and Conker's Bad Fur Day. Nintendo published a good number of 3D platformers, non-Mario 3D platformers at that, because those were the games Rare was interested in making.
Contrast that with today, and Nintendo's external partners are more interested in working with other genres or have different goals.
Why is shifting to 3D considered evolution these days? Kirby is trying new things all of the time in 2D.Yea, but that doesn't ignore that they have 3 series that have been stuck on 2d plats for a long time, and could evolve with going 3d. DK would fit the 3d world style more than even mario did with having co-op, multiple characters with different abilities, and just make the levels a little more explorable. Yoshi has already been usuable multiple times in 3d mario games and even had 3d hub worlds recently. Kirby would be harder to really translate, but would do a lot for the series. This wouldn't take away potential other new experiments because it would be just trying new things with series that have been set on one thing.
I mean star allies really wasn't anything ground breaking honestly. It was more modern 2d kirby. They can add some new gimmick, but trying a 3d game could go to the next level and be more different than just giving kirby hyper nova or something. I think it makes even more sense for dk and yoshi though honestly.Why is shifting to 3D considered evolution these days? Kirby is trying new things all of the time in 2D.
what the fuck
I had no idea that there are people who prefer 3D Land to World
what the fuck.
Yep, problem with 3D Worlds is it's was made with multiplayers in mind, so the level design was hurt because of this.
Designing and developing a 3D Kirby may simply not be what the Kirby devs want to do. Saying "This...but in THREEEEEEEE DEEEEEEEEE" is one thing, but devs having the time, budget, and interest is something else.I mean star allies really wasn't anything ground breaking honestly. It was more modern 2d kirby. They can add some new gimmick, but trying a 3d game could go to the next level and be more different than just giving kirby hyper nova or something. I think it makes even more sense for dk and yoshi though honestly.
Kirby I agree with about that more, but not as much with yoshi. The 3d mario games have shown he can control good in 3d with his basic moves. Now just add in his egg aiming. The yoshi games are about exploring levels and finding all the secrets, and that can translate even more to 3d. It's like transitioning metroid to 3d and how it worked for prime.Designing and developing a 3D Kirby may simply not be what the Kirby devs want to do. Saying "This...but in THREEEEEEEE DEEEEEEEEE" is one thing, but devs having the time, budget, and interest is something else.
Kirby and Yoshi also aren't intrinsically worse or lesser for sticking to 2D. They have design flows and concepts that work fantastic in 2D and that dont have necessity in making a 3D jump.
A new donkey Kong 3D seems like a no brainer with the setting and wide cast
They could even use the Odyssey engine.
A sequel to Donkey Kong 64 is basically guaranteed to sell 5+ million copies.
Exactly right. 3D Land is a lot of fun in Multiplayer, but in terms of level design, they just had to make way too many concessions. 3D Land was just bliss, I played through that game 4-5 times and it's just sooooo good.Yep, problem with 3D Worlds is it's was made with multiplayers in mind, so the level design was hurt because of this.
I liked it, make no mistake, but 3D Land is way superior.
Nintendo is not going to stop making 3D Mario's....Nintendo and Sony both. Their last 3d platformers are Odyssey and Ratchet remake respectively and there's no guarantee that we'll get more in the future. At least we have a potential Odyssey 2 but genre is dying except that. Yeah a genre that is perfectly in demand is dying.
I don't think the difference between platformers is just down to movesets. DKC wouldn't become obsolete if you added rolling to NSMB, because there's also a matter of physics and how characters feel to control. The very act of jumping feels different between Mario and Donkey Kong.The way I see it, 3D Mario is a character with such a versatile move set that it creates a bit of a dilemma for Nintendo.
Say they made a 3D Donkey Kong that had the same move set as his 2D counterpart (i.e. jump, roll, grab, throw, swing from vines). Wouldn't that 3D DK just be a more limited, less interesting version of 3D Mario, who can already do like 90% of those things?
Okay, so what if they came up with a whole suite of additional mechanics to differentiate 3D DK from 3D Mario?This could work in theory but I really struggle to think of very many mechanics that 3D Mario hasn't already covered. Again, I think they would wind up with a less interesting version of something they have already created.
But what if they based 3D DK's design on 3D Mario's, giving him a long jump, butt stomp/ground slap, sideways jump and the ability to swing on vines and climb grassy surfaces? Well, at that point they might as well just add DK as a playable character to a 3D Mario game or simply give those mechanics to 3D Mario as a power-up.
With Kirby, differentiation is even simpler, much simpler, because Kirby barely focuses on platforming as is. You don't really play a Kirby game for tightly timed jumps and ample acrobatics. If you were to plop Kirby down in 2D Mario or DKC, you could probably go through most levels by holding right and tapping A repeatedly.
We shall see how it goes and it could very weel be nothing, but between that one Kirby minigame and the final boss in Star Allies, HAL seems to be at least flirting with the idea of exploring the franchise in 3D.
I don't think the difference between platformers is just down to movesets. DKC wouldn't become obsolete if you added rolling to NSMB, because there's also a matter of physics and how characters feel to control. The very act of jumping feels different between Mario and Donkey Kong.
This is to say nothing of the level design and the way the game is set-up. An implied 3D DK wouldn't necessarily be a Mario 3D World or Odyssey with the ape instead of the plumber. A few posts up someone brought up the idea of a 3D DK being Nintendo's Crash Bandicoot, for example, and I find that idea especially fitting, since Crash was allegedly conceived when Naughty Dogs looked at SNES DKC games and wondered what it would be like if you shifted the perspective.
With Kirby, differentiation is even simpler, much simpler, because Kirby barely focuses on platforming as is. You don't really play a Kirby game for tightly timed jumps and ample acrobatics. If you were to plop Kirby down in 2D Mario or DKC, you could probably go through most levels by holding right and tapping A repeatedly.
No, instead Kirby is some weird, understated platformer beat em up hybrid. You absorb powers and use them to beat up on enemies and solve some really light puzzles. 90% of what Kirby can do is about is dispensing cutesy violence and destruction, rather than traversal, for the basic floating suffices for just about any platforming "challenge" the games might throw at you.
i don't see why this would change in 3D.
lol
Oh god, the stench of people paradoxically preferring 3D Land over 3D World has taken over another thread
I'm not really a fan of Arlo and his videos simply because we're diametrically opposed as Nintendo fans; we have very different ideas of what we want Nintendo to do with their games n' whatnot, and this video is a perfect example of that.
Yeah.Wasn't Arlo one of those who—not hated, but felt that 3D World was disappointing as a Mario game?
Because shit like Odyssey and Galaxy are possible.
I'm not really a fan of Arlo and his videos simply because we're diametrically opposed as Nintendo fans; we have very different ideas of what we want Nintendo to do with their games n' whatnot, and this video is a perfect example of that.
I agree with the general premise that Nintendo should make more 3D platformers, BUT his ideas for 3D DK, Kirby, and Yoshi are all just "make it a sandbox collectathon game" and I really, REALLY don't fuckin' want that.
If Nintendo is gonna get Retro or whoever to make a 3D DK I'd rather they completely ignore the travesty that is DK64 and make a game that is basically Crash Bandicoot/3D World with the crazy spectacle present within the likes of Tropical Freeze.
Like, if they wanted to do another collectathon, I'd rather see them translate the Wario Land series into 3D; those games are already very explorative and focused on collecting stuff.
Within one of his Odyssey videos he basically implies that 3D World is some passionless game made by developers who were just "hunched over their computers adjusting platform distances" rather than being a creative endeavor like Odyssey...Ugh :/