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Driver

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Southern California
It's going to be lacking compared to other solutions, but there was still a lot of value you could get out of the Rift DK1, which had a similar dpi panel. Now, I do worry about how good the tracking will be, but it's a workable resolution. Less than ideal, naturally. But I played all the way through HL2 and Doom 3 on that panel.

That resolution seems a bit low to me. Even the vive has a pretty noticeable screen door effect. I just don't really get who would want this when you have a phone that can do VR better for likely cheaper. I'm wrong a lot about Nintendo though. I thought Switch wasn't going to be so successful for the same reasons, people have phones with better specs, and I was quite wrong about that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,827
That resolution seems a bit low to me. Even the vive has a pretty noticeable screen door effect. I just don't really get who would want this when you have a phone that can do VR better for likely cheaper. I'm wrong a lot about Nintendo though. I thought Switch wasn't going to be so successful for the same reasons, people have phones with better specs, and I was quite wrong about that.
How does that even make sense? Phones don't exactly Mario or Zelda caliber titles, go for the same market, nor did most people have phones with better specs at the time, considering that phones can't run at their highest clock speeds before getting too hot
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
Want to ask how you would all feel about Mario Kart VR.
Mario Kart 8D already had Labo support.

Tech-wise, despite being one of the prettiest games on the system, MK8D on portable mode allowed for split screen 2 players at 720p 60fps.
mario-kart-8-multiplayer-hero.jpg

Mario Kart 7 already had a first person 3D mode
Jb7T0J0.jpg


And finally....Mario Kart VR already exists:

I'm not sure if they'll save it for Mario Kart 9 or add it to Deluxe 8, the Mario Kart team has to be busy with something since ARMS finished a long time ago. Will be 3 years since MK8D early next year.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
I just don't really get who would want this when you have a phone that can do VR better for likely cheaper.
it's not supposed to compete with smartphone VR solutions, this is a basic toy allowing people to play 5 specific nintendo made games after assembling the toycons. with that argument why buy switch at all since you can play games on your phone?
 
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plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,540
Cape Cod, MA
That resolution seems a bit low to me. Even the vive has a pretty noticeable screen door effect. I just don't really get who would want this when you have a phone that can do VR better for likely cheaper. I'm wrong a lot about Nintendo though. I thought Switch wasn't going to be so successful for the same reasons, people have phones with better specs, and I was quite wrong about that.
It's absolutely low and like I said, less than ideal, but I wanted to make the DK1 comparison because that'll be about where it is in terms of resolution. Now, it'll be lacking in terms of refresh rate compared to that panel, and as I said, I worry about the motion tracking. But that resolution shouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of 'can it deliver true VR'. It can.

But we're probably talking an experience closest to the first gen of google cardboard compatible devices, rather than what even the DK1 could do, when you consider panel refresh, optics, light leak, weight, the motion sensing hardware that used, etc.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Want to ask how you would all feel about Mario Kart VR.
Mario Kart 8D already had Labo support.

Tech-wise, despite being one of the prettiest games on the system, MK8D on portable mode allowed for split screen 2 players at 720p 60fps.
Unfortunately it would suck, because you have to hold the headset to your face. The only real way for it to be playable would be to tilt your head to steer. If it could strap to your head the game would be ideal for it, but as things are it's not really doable.
 

Driver

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Southern California
How does that even make sense? Phones don't exactly Mario or Zelda caliber titles, go for the same market, nor did most people have phones with better specs at the time, considering that phones can't run at their highest clock speeds before getting too hot

it's not supposed to compete with smartphone VR solutions, this is a basic toy allowing people to play 5 specific nintendo made games after assembling they toycons. with that argument why buy switch at all since you can play games on your phone?

The thing that sets Nintendo apart is the software. Thats what I'm saying, on paper this thing seems to be lacking the technology to make it successful amongst far superior products. It shouldn't work. But then Nintendo comes around and throws mario or pokemon or zelda on this platform and it sells gangbusters. I'm constantly surprised at Nintendos ability to sell middle of the road technology in a world where people buy new $1000 smart phones every year or two. I shouldn't be surprised anymore but i still find it remarkable.

It's absolutely low and like I said, less than ideal, but I wanted to make the DK1 comparison because that'll be about where it is in terms of resolution. Now, it'll be lacking in terms of refresh rate compared to that panel, and as I said, I worry about the motion tracking. But that resolution shouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of 'can it deliver true VR'. It can.

But we're probably talking an experience closest to the first gen of google cardboard compatible devices, rather than what even the DK1 could do, when you consider panel refresh and the motion sensing hardware that used.

For me, I couldn't do it. Those old google cardboard solutions made me sick. It will be interesting to see how well this one sells. I'm sure it will beat my expectations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
Unfortunately it would suck, because you have to hold the headset to your face. The only real way for it to be playable would be to tilt your head to steer. If it could strap to your head the game would be ideal for it, but as things are it's not really doable.
Tilt controls are part of the series. MK7 had a first person tilt mode, for example.
Mixed with the new addition of auto steering that keeps you from falling off, I could see it working?
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,827
The thing that sets Nintendo apart is the software. Thats what I'm saying, on paper this thing seems to be lacking the technology to make it successful amongst far superior products. It shouldn't work. But then Nintendo comes around and throws mario or pokemon or zelda on this platform and it sells gangbusters. I'm constantly surprised at Nintendos ability to sell middle of the road technology in a world where people buy new $1000 smart phones every year or two. I shouldn't be surprised anymore but i still find it remarkable.
Except the Switch is about as capable as it could've been for its form factor and price point. It's not a 3DS or Wii U situation, where a gimmick and a poor set of priorities held the hardware back but kept them pricey. The Switch's hardware is actually rather good and appealing. It's far from middle of the road tech
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Tilt controls are part of the series. MK7 had a first person tilt mode, for example.
Mixed with the new addition of auto steering that keeps you from falling off, I could see it working?
Tilt controls are one thing, tilting your head is something else entirely. I've played VR games that were based around tilting your head, it's not fun, and hard on your neck. Heck, even just holding the headset to your face for three races would be tiring.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
I'm constantly surprised at Nintendos ability to sell middle of the road technology in a world where people buy new $1000 smart phones every year or two. I shouldn't be surprised anymore but i still find it remarkable.
what other $300 tablet is out there that's much more powerful than switch and has all its functionalities?
 

cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,407
Looking at it more closely, it appears that the "arm" is attached via a rubberband loop that allows it to freely pivot in any direction.
IF09CvV.jpg

So the tracking pattern is indeed necessary, and it seems the second joy-con's primary purpose is ensuring smoother tracking of distance and angle than the refresh rate of the motion camera can provide. The "wrist" can't twist, but you can still move the entire arm around, and the elbow appears to be a similar joint - so it's less limited than I first assumed. Still pretty limited though.
Oh that's a rubber band ok... The trunk being straight in the promo photo gave me the impression it would be limited to up and down.

After reading that the Joycons don't have magnetometers, I see now why the face + Joycon cam are necessary.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
It's absolutely low and like I said, less than ideal, but I wanted to make the DK1 comparison because that'll be about where it is in terms of resolution. Now, it'll be lacking in terms of refresh rate compared to that panel, and as I said, I worry about the motion tracking. But that resolution shouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of 'can it deliver true VR'. It can.
Why would it be lacking in terms of refresh rate? DK1 had a 720p 60hz-refresh screen, same as the Switch screen. Nintendo's not going to make games/apps that run at lower than that. This should be very comparable to the DK1 experience, which was amazing for anyone without VR experience. Heck, the resolution will be a little higher, since the screen is slightly smaller than DK1 with mostly the same resolution
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,540
Cape Cod, MA
Why would it be lacking in terms of refresh rate? DK1 had a 720p 60hz-refresh screen, same as the Switch screen. Nintendo's not going to make games/apps that run at lower than that. This should be very comparable to the DK1 experience, which was amazing for anyone without VR experience.
Thanks for correcting my memory. I thought the DK1 had 75hz but lacked low persistence, but I see now that it wasn't until the DK2 that it got 75hz refresh.
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
What's the "Screen Holder and Safety Cap" bit about? Cap like a cap you put on your head, or like a cap that you use to close off something that would slosh out otherwise? They say you can play with just the screen holder instead of the goggles, so it's what again? I mean, the Switch has a little stand you can use built right into the system, what's the point of a screen holder. Confusion.
The screen holder is an alternative to the goggles to play in 2d in case you do not have binocular vision or if you are a child under seven for whom it is recommended not to use 3d products like this. Safety cap is probably to reduce impacts from drops / be compatible with connecting to the other accessories
 

Chopper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
930
Whoa, people who disagree with you on a gaming forum are toxic gamerzzz. How original. I guess products can't be flawed if they're aimed at kids because kids don't know what quality is.
To be fair, it was only being pointed out that comparisons to existing VR tech, and the VR market at large, are widely off the mark in this situation. Cutting edge tech, this is not. And Nintendo aren't pretending it is. Those decrying the screen fidelity and basic tech are just shouting at clouds. It's a toy. A cool toy.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,778
The screen holder is going to be something that lets you hold the Switch as if you were holding the VR headset, but without looking through the goggles. Since all the addons are the headset plus something else, the holder is needed to attach to those addons to keep it compatible with them.

That makes sense. Thanks mate!
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Want to ask how you would all feel about Mario Kart VR.
Mario Kart 8D already had Labo support.

Tech-wise, despite being one of the prettiest games on the system, MK8D on portable mode allowed for split screen 2 players at 720p 60fps.


Mario Kart 7 already had a first person 3D mode
Jb7T0J0.jpg


And finally....Mario Kart VR already exists:


I'm not sure if they'll save it for Mario Kart 9 or add it to Deluxe 8, the Mario Kart team has to be busy with something since ARMS finished a long time ago. Will be 3 years since MK8D early next year.

Do remember that VR needs IIRC at least 90 FPS to not feel bad. 60 FPS isn't enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
If nothing else it's a very unique take on VR
I didn't say it's failed, I said it hasn't gotten as much traction as expected.
I have no issues with more Labo lol. I just wanted more ambitious VR. It's not a big deal, I'll still get this and I'm sure it'll be fun.
No? I said it failed to gain traction relative to expectations.

What, I love VR. That's my problem I wanted something more ambitious.
Yes it has...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,038
I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand I'm glad Nintendo is doing something VR related (just need MS to do something now). However, not sure this is the kind of experience that will help push VR. I guess we really don't know until people gets hands on.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Why would it be lacking in terms of refresh rate? DK1 had a 720p 60hz-refresh screen, same as the Switch screen. Nintendo's not going to make games/apps that run at lower than that. This should be very comparable to the DK1 experience, which was amazing for anyone without VR experience. Heck, the resolution will be a little higher, since the screen is slightly smaller than DK1 with mostly the same resolution
Yeah, I believe I've read that the Switch has a slightly higher pixel density than the DK1. 237 ppi vs 215 ppi

It should look better than the DK1.
 

andresmoros

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,468
Houston
How many times does it need to be said? ITS.NOT.JUST.CARDBOARD. There's software too, which is very high quality and must have taken a huge amount of work to get as slick and polished as it it. Not to mention the thousands of hours of RnD that must have gone into the kits, and the marketing/branding etc. And to top it off, the 'just cardboard' part of it as good as cardboard gets, thick and sturdy and pre-cut with ridiculous precision. Seriously, if you ever actually use a Labo kit you'll see, it's not in any way a cheap and cheerful product.

Look, if the software were something significant, like I don't know, Captain Toad (to mention a simple Nintendo game), then yeah, absolutely justified, but selling cardboard, no matter how thick and nice, it still is cardboard. $80 still is too much.
 

NeoPancho

Member
Nov 3, 2017
219
I think this is going to be like the AR games for the 3DS, some simple and fun games with a lot of polish, which is perfectly fine.
 

klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
Look, if the software were something significant, like I don't know, Captain Toad (to mention a simple Nintendo game), then yeah, absolutely justified, but selling cardboard, no matter how thick and nice, it still is cardboard. $80 still is too much.

It's so much more than cardboard though. Think of it like this: it's the difference between buying a frozen pizza and making one from scratch. When you make a pizza from scratch your inevitably going to spend more money but you get the satisfaction of slicing your own vegetables, grating the cheese, rolling out the dough and putting everything together before throwing it in the oven.

Therea nothing wrong with frozen pizza but you get quat you pay for.
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
Or
It's so much more than cardboard though. Think of it like this: it's the difference between buying a frozen pizza and making one from scratch. When you make a pizza from scratch your inevitably going to spend more money but you get the satisfaction of slicing your own vegetables, grating the cheese, rolling out the dough and putting everything together before throwing it in the oven.

Therea nothing wrong with frozen pizza but you get quat you pay for.
Or it's like buying a frozen pizza and saying you paid $7 for the box
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
That's true, it probably depends on the individual though, I could just as easily see someone not very tech-savvy feeling unimpressed, like the people who say they can't see a difference between DVD and Blu Ray enough to upgrade (or the investment isn't worth it for them), or 1080p and 4k I guess.

*Golfclap*
Even someone like you should know 1080 vs 4K depends on the size of the screen and viewing distance, cmon your better than that.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
Even someone like you should know 1080 vs 4K depends on the size of the screen and viewing distance, cmon your better than that.
I think you misunderstand what I was saying, I wasn't talking about my understanding of the technology:
the people who say they can't see a difference between DVD and Blu Ray enough to upgrade (or the investment isn't worth it for them), or 1080p and 4k I guess.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Actually, I think I understood the other reason why the VR here is "hold-to-your-face" VR, rather than "strap-on-your-face" VR.

This way, regardless of how you're using the hardware, its behavior doesn't need to change.

For instance, look at that elephant thing. Regardless of whether you have the optics on that, you can still hold the whole thing, move it around, and do whatever it is that you'll do in that toy-con's game. If you don't fancy stuffing your face into your Switch, you can just hold the Switch with one hand via the elephant-handle, and move the trunk around with the other hand. Same with the blaster, or the bird, or the camera. All of those can work in 2D, just looking at the Switch screen normally. This is especially important since the VR here would be so technologically inferior - it's designed to work as a LABO toy first, and as a VR game second, so that whether you can or can't tolerate the Switch VR capabilities, you can still have some fun with it.
 

FancyPants

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
707
Why would it be lacking in terms of refresh rate? DK1 had a 720p 60hz-refresh screen, same as the Switch screen. Nintendo's not going to make games/apps that run at lower than that. This should be very comparable to the DK1 experience, which was amazing for anyone without VR experience. Heck, the resolution will be a little higher, since the screen is slightly smaller than DK1 with mostly the same resolution

I had one. The DK1 had a 800p screen of better quality than the Switch (lower persistence), as well as better motion tracking (including magnetometers). The screen is also larger, allowing for a larger FOV. It's going to be worse than this, and the DK1 was really uncomfortable after like 15 minutes of use.

Except the Switch is about as capable as it could've been for its form factor and price point. It's not a 3DS or Wii U situation, where a gimmick and a poor set of priorities held the hardware back but kept them pricey. The Switch's hardware is actually rather good and appealing. It's far from middle of the road tech

...no? The Switch hardware is decidedly middle of the road for what's out there. It's really nice for the price, size and package, but in hardware power there are a lot of better stuff out there.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,195
London, UK
...no? The Switch hardware is decidedly middle of the road for what's out there. It's really nice for the price, size and package, but in hardware power there are a lot of better stuff out there.

Go back two years to early 2017. What was around that was £279 and as powerful in hardware as the Switch? Shipped with an equivalent 4310mAh battery and had active cooling. The Tegra was the best mobile chip (that wasn't made by Apple) for gaming back then. And it's all about size/price/package. We have to compare like with like, not Switch to a £3000 PC.

Remember:
Anandtech said:
This is merely anecdotal, but one of the big hang-ups I'm seeing is that a lot of people aren't accustomed to using what's essentially a high-power tablet that's running at fill-tilt at all times.The secret to the long battery life (and clockspeed turboing) of the iPad and other tablets relative to their size is that they spend the vast majority of their time idling. It doesn't take a lot of energy at the SoC level to display text or watch a video; the SoC is only called on in short bursts to render something before it goes back to sleep. The Switch, on the other hand, spends the vast majority of its time gaming, meaning the SoC is frequently in its highest power state.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11181/a-look-at-nintendo-switch-power-consumption

For the power you get for the cost there was nothing comparable. Read the Digital Foundry/Eurogamer review again.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-nintendo-switch-review
 
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Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
I had one. The DK1 had a 800p screen of better quality than the Switch (lower persistence), as well as better motion tracking (including magnetometers). The screen is also larger, allowing for a larger FOV. It's going to be worse than this, and the DK1 was really uncomfortable after like 15 minutes of use.
I had a DK1 as well. That "800p" screen was 1280x800, so only 80 pixels taller than Switch - basically same resolution, but slightly different aspect ratio. It wasn't low persistence at all, you're thinking about DK2 with its OLED screen stolen from cell phones and hacked by Oculus; DK1 had a standard, off the shelf, cheap lcd display, complete with 20ms latency. A magnetometer is useful for correcting drift over long periods of time or when motion is fast, but this device being handheld enforces that motion will rarely be fast, and Nintendo has gotten pretty good at keeping drift to a minimum.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I am somewhat surprised this is a bit over a month away and we haven't seen a trailer for it. In fact there's not been exactly a big marketing push about it; not even a mention in the latest Direct. Hopefully Nintendo hasn't simply given up on Labo and sending this to die.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,195
London, UK

Diego Renault

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,339
I am somewhat surprised this is a bit over a month away and we haven't seen a trailer for it. In fact there's not been exactly a big marketing push about it; not even a mention in the latest Direct. Hopefully Nintendo hasn't simply given up on Labo and sending this to die.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet they have 100% given up on Labo.