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Nintendo fucked up Fire Emblem Characters in Smash.
- Thread starter Slipknot666
- Start date
I literally said some of it was understandably due to timing. Just taking issue with the "Fire Emblem's MCs are always swordsmen" sentiment.
Yeah, I think a lot of the ire is that the FE characters take up "slots" on the UI so they look over represented. It's be like if they separated the DQ heroes to have their own slots, but the four Marth archetypes don't take as much effort as a fully fledged character. There's a reason why the CSS has the option to stack echoes and two of them are Fire Emblem. It's too late to back out now since Echoes have been assigned important numbers unlike alt skins like Alph or Dark Link or the Koopa Kids but I feel like seeing so many FE characters on the menu is the problem and people work backwards to justify why from there.
Why would Fire Emblem have to design itself around Smash instead of Sakurai making more interesting choices? He's not being held at gunpoint to keep choosing the main Lord or avatar.
How is this mere hearsay to you?
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Except that calling all anime characters 'white' is something that happens on this board and it's kind of ignorant. Like if the Japanese audience and creators view Marth as Japanese, and then westerners have the games localized for their market and start claiming he's white...you don't see the problem there?
Plenty of anime characters are explicitly white, but saying that every FE character is white because of the setting is way off base.
At worst, it'll probably get a rep next time around. It was simply too late for the base roster & was a new IP at the time (which Sakurai typically avoids rolling the dice on).
Characters in Smash are meant as a gateway into game series, especially for Fire Emblem. It'd be great to have characters of other classes in the game, with a wider variety of weapons and the like (I'd love to play Virion in Smash,) but I don't think the characters are in for people that played their original game. They're there to advertise the latest FE; like Roy did in Melee.
On the other hand, I think FE needs it's own fighting game in the vein of Pokken Tournament, with assists, different phases, etc.
On the other hand, I think FE needs it's own fighting game in the vein of Pokken Tournament, with assists, different phases, etc.
Well, if that's what he's supposed to, he fails as the concept art he's based on portrays him as more of a Marth-type swordfighter.
Then maybe these people should learn how to deal with it and go play with their favs. It's a 75 char roster, go and find something else to have fun in
that's a shame... hopefully it doesn't get anything in the next game
Since when does concept art determine a character's gameplay style? Byleth uses a sword, an axe, a lance, and a bow - putting him into the same category as Marth (pure sword fighter) is disingenuous.
The "main protagonist that is the player character is the one to add" argument doesn't cut it. Adding Byleth is more or less similar to adding, say, "Cross" from XCX instead of Elma, and you'd bet your ass there'd be heat everywhere over that decision.
And come on, it's Smash Ultimate. It's all about unpredictable characters at this point. There was nothing unpredictable about Byleth. He's the most obvious, status-quo newcomer of Ultimate, base game or DLC.
And come on, it's Smash Ultimate. It's all about unpredictable characters at this point. There was nothing unpredictable about Byleth. He's the most obvious, status-quo newcomer of Ultimate, base game or DLC.
The concept art for a character matters more to their entrance in Smash and what they represent for their franchise than whatever abilities they had in their own game were. I feel this is true.
Game characters, protagonists especially, are branded with marketing, and their "shots" are used for advertisement. That's a large factor in their iconicness as they enter crossovers.
There's a reason Geralt of Rivia is always wearing his starting equipment in all his crossover references.
I'm referring to the fact that he uses those 4 weapons IN SMASH, not in Fire Emblem Three Houses.
I mean, unexpected characters bring hype and reactions but when the dust settles, it means Waluigi is is Smash and people gotta live with it.
... I kid. But the sentiment is there. There's more to the Smash cycle than character speculation fallout.
While I realize that Byleth does indeed use non-sword weapons, the lance and axe that they do use sure do seem pretty functionally similar to how a sword could be used in a game like Smash. Lance is long stabs, which either tip (like some classic swordies) or have a wide arc in the air (like Ike), and then the axe is a big slow wind up type moves (like Ike).
Thank god the down B isn't a counter, yes, but also, it's still not that wild or mechanically distinct, and strikes me as combining several of the less interesting moves from other sword using FE characters. The bow *is* different, but it's usage seems...well, I guess it could be worse, but still a little dull.
Ironically enough, it's Byleth's usage of the sword which is perhaps most different, since several of its moves are more ZSS than anything.
Thank god the down B isn't a counter, yes, but also, it's still not that wild or mechanically distinct, and strikes me as combining several of the less interesting moves from other sword using FE characters. The bow *is* different, but it's usage seems...well, I guess it could be worse, but still a little dull.
Ironically enough, it's Byleth's usage of the sword which is perhaps most different, since several of its moves are more ZSS than anything.
Fists are really just five small swords if you really think about it...
ARMS sold well enough to justify a sequel on the next system (over 2 million is great for a new fighting game IP), so I'd be shocked if it didn't get a 2nd chance at Smash despite your clear hatred for the game. Same for Astral Chain, though it's not as much of a sure-thing given how PlatinumGames has a full plate these days.
fire emblem has sttrifed away from any kind of practical design since awakening and the change or artstyle
also i suppose it's some kind of magical weapon
I love FE but I do agree that the playable picks are kind of lopsided to just sword users, that said OP your choices are mostly shit for fixing this.
In a just world the FE reps would have been something like:
Marth (same as he is now but with other lords as skins: Chrom, Lucina, Eliwood, Eirika and Roy. Have some alt costumes based on Marth's other appearances too)
Ike (Give him Urvan as a nod to Greil and his Vanguard class for some of his moves. Hector and Alm as skins, and Ike's PoR and RD looks with their respective class change outfits)
Black Knight (Popular villain character, gives a villain rep for FE. Give him a Zelgius alt costume.)
Tiki awakening style (Long time character of some big titles in the series, represents multiple games, Corrin can be a skin for her along with Medeus. Uses mostly dragon)
Robin (Same as it is now, give them Celica and Micaiah as alt costumes along with Arvis.)
Lyn (Most popular female character, give her swordsmaster outfit and have her use bows as well. Navarre as an alt costume)
Byleth (same as it is and just to rep the new game but give them the other three protags as actual alt skins, along with their exclusive promoted class looks)
In a just world the FE reps would have been something like:
Marth (same as he is now but with other lords as skins: Chrom, Lucina, Eliwood, Eirika and Roy. Have some alt costumes based on Marth's other appearances too)
Ike (Give him Urvan as a nod to Greil and his Vanguard class for some of his moves. Hector and Alm as skins, and Ike's PoR and RD looks with their respective class change outfits)
Black Knight (Popular villain character, gives a villain rep for FE. Give him a Zelgius alt costume.)
Tiki awakening style (Long time character of some big titles in the series, represents multiple games, Corrin can be a skin for her along with Medeus. Uses mostly dragon)
Robin (Same as it is now, give them Celica and Micaiah as alt costumes along with Arvis.)
Lyn (Most popular female character, give her swordsmaster outfit and have her use bows as well. Navarre as an alt costume)
Byleth (same as it is and just to rep the new game but give them the other three protags as actual alt skins, along with their exclusive promoted class looks)
it's silly to me to say that the other weapons don't count because they're used "like swords"
people would be amazed by an axe user doing the same swings simply because they don't have a weapon that looks like a sword by default
I wouldn't mind an "Echo" DLC pack at some point. I know they still take work to make but it'd be awesome to have some additional characters people really want, just with the same movesets as other ones. For FE characters, Edelgard could definitely work as a Byleth echo. Celica could be a Robin echo. Black Knight could be Ike's. Not that there would be that many FE echos announced (although, with Sakurai, you never know haha). Just listing some examples. I would absolutely love Edelgard though.
I mean, they'd be more like knives, which far as I know, aren't in the existing FE lineup in Smash. Woulda been neat to see Byleth use their knife though, which they clearly have.
And it's silly to me that people get caught up on the names of the weapon instead of how they work.
I think they're criticizing your "lances and axes are just swords" argument.
Yeah, this pretty much sums up my thoughts on it.
I really doubt that had anything to do with Nintendo intending coding Marth and Roy as Japanese. At most it was a reference to their games being Japan-only.
There's definitely a middle ground between calling all anime characters white and calling all anime characters Japanese. It really is a case by case thing and I'd be curious to know what traits you consider to code an anime character as white. At the end of the day, only the creator of these characters can tell us exactly what they intended the character to be. However, creator intent is not the same as creator action. If you want a character to be Japanese but you make them look white, give them a European name and make them a native of a place that is based in European culture, you've coded them as European.
Fire Emblem Awakening goes out of its way to code its characters as European considering they created an entire expy of Japan in Chon'sin. There is very visible intent to make Chon'sinan characters come off as another ethnicity different from the Ylisseans. Chrom is Marth's descendant and from the same continent. I think that shows intent from Intelligent Systems and even if they didn't intend it, it's there clear as day. I don't think it's wrong to interpret what they've given us at face value.
I guess in the end we can at least say Joker is definitely Japanese haha
Out of all classes in FE we only have sword-fighters and mages!!
I wouldn't mind having 30 FE characters but let's have some representation for the other classes
-Archer
-Knights
-Assassin
-Cavalier
-Grappler
-Pegasus
And many more.
Ultimate now have a total of 8 FE characters representing 2 classes.
Why not have this instead?
Ermm...I just realised, why is Black Knight have another Black helmet while wearing one lol?
The problem with the FE representation is that there's so many interesting FE characters to choose from, and yet they went with a shitton of blue haired swordies.
Which, go for it, but so far I see lots of semi disjointed hitboxes, some of which tip and some of which have big windups. Know what was nothing like a sword? Hero's Down B. Or Banjo's egg shooting. Or Meta Knights teleporting. People can get caught up in specific classifications of weapons all they want, but l'll call out less inspired functionality when I see it.
As I said with Byleth, some of their least swordy stuff was, ironically, with their sword, and at least they avoided some of the more boring choices, but I'm not going to pretend like it's super amazing and different just because the weapon has a different model.
Those characters are not main characters, simple as that.
If the next Hero is an archer or a Pegasus rider, sure.
Regardless, Byleth is a good deal different
If the next Hero is an archer or a Pegasus rider, sure.
Regardless, Byleth is a good deal different
Yes it is.
They are used to hit people with them, like sword fighters do. At the end, you can move the goalposts how you like just to fit your argument... Like some female characters not counting because "they are not the default one".
It's ridiculous at this point.
Smash is putting main characters of a series not known for great main characters.
Byleth isn't even an anime swordsman lol, I'd still pick any of them over a single FE character
Byleth isn't even an anime swordsman lol, I'd still pick any of them over a single FE character
They're blue haired swordsmen AND they're nobles.
Fire emblem is the equivalent of seeing those obnoxious frat boys get far in life with daddy's money while you're still in the struggle bus: i.e they do not deserve to be in based on looks, importance, story relevance or literally anything. They just have a guaranteed ticket to Smash by virtue of being Nintendo.
... I like Micaiah.
Though I guess Edelgard is a better version of her archetype when the archetype is
morally questionable white haired female co-protag/villain
Ike and Byleth aren't even nobles! Ike gets a noble title for the sake of convenience and then immediately discards it and Byleth is just a merc who got pressured into teaching. Hell, even Claude is more bourgeoisie than Byleth
I agree your first sentence's example would be ignorant, but I think it's more nuanced here. Fire Emblem's settings often wear their inspirations on their sleeves, with many being obviously European-inspired, and other countries acting as similarly clear inspirations—Fates' Japan-inspired Hoshido, Elibe's Mongolia-inspired Sacae, etc.—often with discernibly separate ethnicities in character design.
I'd say it's broadly similar to Fullmetal Alchemist, where Amestris is a clear analogue to Industrial Europe (specifically Germany), Xerxes to Persia, and Xing to China.
Ultimately I think it's fine that both Japanese and international audiences identify with characters' ambiguous ethnicities.
I fucking wish that was the case, but Ultimate is the game with the least amount of new nintendo franchises getting a rep. I'm hoping that DLC pack 2 is of just obscure nintendo characters, but that shit doesn't sell, so I doubt it'll happen. Especially with that "celebration of gaming" line Sakurai said.
About as much as Link does. We need more main characters in FE who don't start with a fuckin sword
Considering how many characters there are in FE games, the main character is the best way to represent one of games in most cases if there is only one choice. Also, to differentiate the character, Beryl represents different classes with their different weapons and the full weapon triangle.Out of all classes in FE we only have sword-fighters and mages!!
I wouldn't mind having 30 FE characters but let's have some representation for the other classes
-Archer
-Knights
-Assassin
-Cavalier
-Grappler
-Pegasus
And many more.
Ultimate now have a total of 8 FE characters representing 2 classes.
Why not have this instead?
Others have also mentioned that Corrin is very different from the "swordsman" class due to the dragon moves.
I just don't get your logic or arguments. You say Marth having a Japanese VA in smash for the longest time meant he's Japanese, and not for the obvious reason that Marth and Roy weren't in games that casted English VAs for them, but by the time Ultimate came out, both characters were in games that casted English VAs for them.
No one here is saying that all anime characters are white. If this happens often in this forum, I'm not seeing it here in this thread at least. The original poster said Byleth was white because everything in the Three Houses setting supports the characters in that setting being medieval European based, and Europe was mostly Caucasians. The ones that are not like Claude, Dedue, Petra, and Cyril are specifically stated to be foreigners to that land.
Fans seeing characters as Japanese is fine, I'm not arguing against that. Fans do that all the time for characters that clearly not Japanese, just look at the Fate franchise for a good example of that. But I'm not seeing any proof that the creators created Marth with him being a Japan native in mind. If there is some, please provide me with more than "they have an anime artstyle" or "they have a Japanese VA". But into you do that, I and a lot of other people will continue thinking that the character that uses an European style weapon, European style armor and clothing, was born in this European style country, and has a European based name (even in the Japanese text) is probably European.
the funniest thing about people asking for black knight is that
he is, quite literally, another blue haired anime swordsman
Sure, Fullmetal Alchemist is a good comparison. And Three Houses is clearly more inspired directly by European medieval society and conflict then even past games. It just runs me the wrong way when people just assume all these characters are white. Sometimes the settings/cultural basis for characters is really complex, like the Sacaens in 6 and 7. They are partially inspired by Japanese culture and Native American culture, and definitely not white.
Slipknot666: You're absolutely right!
There are those big problems with the represen n of the Fire Emblem series:
- Most of the selected characters will not remain relevant after a long time: It is always a lord character or an avatar that appears in one or two games that is selected for Super Smash Bros. These characters will not remain relevant over time. There are a limited number of recurring characters that I think need be given priority.
- No equal representation: The 3DS games in the series are overrepresented. I know these games have made the series popular, but there are sixteen mainline games in the series, including remakes and lots of spin-offs like Heroes, Warriors and TMS#FE for inspiration. These have been largely ignored.
- The weapon triangle was barely represented for a long time - until now: There are many weapon types in the Fire Emblem series, but they were ignored for a long time. Only recently, the first character in the series to use an bow and arrow, axe or lance was announced. I'm seriously surprised we've had to wait so long for that. All characters carry a sword, no matter how special it is.
I'm not satisfied with the range of Fire Emblem characters either. Considering the above, I suggest the following:
- Marth (Weapon Type: Sword): The first protagonist in the series is of historic importance. I do not see the character disappear. I can't change much about the moveset, but maybe I would incorporate the Binding Shield into Marth's Final Smash.
- Roy (Weapon type: sword, possibly horselance - rider): Roy could become a modified Echo character as a clone of Marth. There are also plenty of ways to make the character a stand-alone, unique character. Roy is the son of Eliwood, a horseman who uses lances. There's a logical explanation for incorporating the typical elements of Eliwood's Paladin class into Roy's moveset.
- Ike (Weapon type: sword, axe): I think Ike is the most popular character in the series and she won't disappear from the series. The character is able to handle Greil's Urvan axe. It can be used in the moveset. Maybe there's also the possibility to use Lehran's Medallion in Ike's Final Smash.
- Robin (Weapon type: sword and different kinds of magic): I think Robin is enough to represent the 3DS games, he's also the most unique character in the selection. Personally, I wouldn't change anything about his moveset.
- Tiki (Weapon type: Dragonstone, staves, brawler): Tiki is a Manakete and can turn into a dragon just like Corrin. She would be a better choice than Corrin for several reasons. Tiki is a recurring character in the series and remains relevant because she appears in every game in which Marth is playable. There are many unique possibilities with her moveset: she can transform into various types of dragons, but she can also arm wrestle (see Fire Emblem: Warriors) or handle a staff (see Tokyo Mirage Sessions#FE).
- Anna (Weapon types: daggers, arrows and more): Byleth can handle a variety of weapons, but so can Anna as a weapon seller. This character has played a role in more games in the Fire Emblem series than any other character. She would fit perfectly into a Thief class, with a moveset that focuses on speed and agility. The moveset does not necessarily have to be serious, it can also be about money, for example. Just like Tiki, Anna ensures a better representation of the female gender in the Super Smash Bros. series.
Above you saw my proposal for a better character selection for the Fire Emblem series. Each character except Marth has multiple weapon types. There are two non-swordsmen (who are also female). The characters all make appearances in many of the games in the series, are well known and popular. I've tried to make the characters less generic.
There are those big problems with the represen n of the Fire Emblem series:
- Most of the selected characters will not remain relevant after a long time: It is always a lord character or an avatar that appears in one or two games that is selected for Super Smash Bros. These characters will not remain relevant over time. There are a limited number of recurring characters that I think need be given priority.
- No equal representation: The 3DS games in the series are overrepresented. I know these games have made the series popular, but there are sixteen mainline games in the series, including remakes and lots of spin-offs like Heroes, Warriors and TMS#FE for inspiration. These have been largely ignored.
- The weapon triangle was barely represented for a long time - until now: There are many weapon types in the Fire Emblem series, but they were ignored for a long time. Only recently, the first character in the series to use an bow and arrow, axe or lance was announced. I'm seriously surprised we've had to wait so long for that. All characters carry a sword, no matter how special it is.
I'm not satisfied with the range of Fire Emblem characters either. Considering the above, I suggest the following:
- Marth (Weapon Type: Sword): The first protagonist in the series is of historic importance. I do not see the character disappear. I can't change much about the moveset, but maybe I would incorporate the Binding Shield into Marth's Final Smash.
- Roy (Weapon type: sword, possibly horselance - rider): Roy could become a modified Echo character as a clone of Marth. There are also plenty of ways to make the character a stand-alone, unique character. Roy is the son of Eliwood, a horseman who uses lances. There's a logical explanation for incorporating the typical elements of Eliwood's Paladin class into Roy's moveset.
- Ike (Weapon type: sword, axe): I think Ike is the most popular character in the series and she won't disappear from the series. The character is able to handle Greil's Urvan axe. It can be used in the moveset. Maybe there's also the possibility to use Lehran's Medallion in Ike's Final Smash.
- Robin (Weapon type: sword and different kinds of magic): I think Robin is enough to represent the 3DS games, he's also the most unique character in the selection. Personally, I wouldn't change anything about his moveset.
- Tiki (Weapon type: Dragonstone, staves, brawler): Tiki is a Manakete and can turn into a dragon just like Corrin. She would be a better choice than Corrin for several reasons. Tiki is a recurring character in the series and remains relevant because she appears in every game in which Marth is playable. There are many unique possibilities with her moveset: she can transform into various types of dragons, but she can also arm wrestle (see Fire Emblem: Warriors) or handle a staff (see Tokyo Mirage Sessions#FE).
- Anna (Weapon types: daggers, arrows and more): Byleth can handle a variety of weapons, but so can Anna as a weapon seller. This character has played a role in more games in the Fire Emblem series than any other character. She would fit perfectly into a Thief class, with a moveset that focuses on speed and agility. The moveset does not necessarily have to be serious, it can also be about money, for example. Just like Tiki, Anna ensures a better representation of the female gender in the Super Smash Bros. series.
Above you saw my proposal for a better character selection for the Fire Emblem series. Each character except Marth has multiple weapon types. There are two non-swordsmen (who are also female). The characters all make appearances in many of the games in the series, are well known and popular. I've tried to make the characters less generic.