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In retrospective which is the bigger mistake made by Nintendo:

  • Ditching CD-ROM and sticking with cartridges on the N64

    Votes: 897 49.5%
  • Betraying Sony and helping to create their biggest competitor ever: PlayStation

    Votes: 915 50.5%

  • Total voters
    1,812

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,315
Jordan
Jesus that poll is super close which makes your question very valid. I chose betraying Sony. Sony have had the lions share of 3rd party ever since and have basically forced Nintendo out of the traditional hardware market. The end result is Nintendo's console must be portable to compete.
Nintendo also had their own wins against Sony, they destroyed their handheld business with the Monster Hunter deal, and they are outselling them in Japan and even the US. in Japan it has been complete dominance for three systems now (DS, 3DS, and now Switch).
they both found their place in the market, and they work in a different way.

sometimes you can't avoid competition, its a business after all, they should've fought for every single third party title to be on their platform, but they probably underestimated Sony and didn't think they would be this successful when they have 0 history/experience on developing video games, they probably thought they will fail like other electronic companies.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,241
Betraying Sony along with losing Final Fantasy to Playstation.

I switched and never looked back.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
I think that's more or less correct.

When Sony tried to get all publishing rights I think that (rightfully so) spooked Nintendo and they were never going to work with Sony after that IMO, they just strung them along for a while, even when Sony acquiesced down the road.

I don't think Sony really "exploited" anything with third parties though ... when Nintendo chose carts only it was a shock to the industry and it left devs with no recourse. When that happened one of Sony or Sega were going to hit the jackpot by default, Sony outmanoeuvred a struggling Sega.

I think it even stunned NOA, I remember either Howard Lincoln or Peter Main talking about CD for Project: Reality as basically a given. Everyone just assumed the work Nintendo had put into the SNES CD-ROM would just be moved over to Project: Reality.

Yeah I don't mean exploit in a negative sense. My point was basically that Sony, through their deal with Nintendo, would have obviously seen that Nintendo's relationship with their third parties wasn't exactly hunky dory. Itwas, to use an apt phrase, a weak point they could attack for massive damage.

Ultimately Nintendo opened themselves up to be challenged in the market by a competitor who could come in and woo away their third parties. Nintendo IPs weren't as strong as they are now, especially worldwide. And that's the thing about what Sony did with the Playstation and what they've been able to do ever since that Nintendo only got to with the Wii and now the Switch - attract a truly global audience.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Yeah I don't mean exploit in a negative sense. My point was basically that Sony, through their deal with Nintendo, would have obviously seen that Nintendo's relationship with their third parties wasn't exactly hunky dory. Itwas, to use an apt phrase, a weak point they could attack for massive damage.

Ultimately Nintendo opened themselves up to be challenged in the market by a competitor who could come in and woo away their third parties. Nintendo IPs weren't as strong as they are now, especially worldwide. And that's the thing about what Sony did with the Playstation and what they've been able to do ever since that Nintendo only got to with the Wii and now the Switch - attract a truly global audience.

I mean Sega really was already doing that, they were already charging less than Nintendo for 3rd party licensing fees (they even made a funny TV commercial about it with a mosquito representing Nintendo).

It wasn't like Sony "discovered" that third parties were important or something though.

It was less of an issue of "like" versus "dislike" and more of an issue of "uh there's no way on earth we can fit the game our developers want to make a on 4MB cartridge."
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
The 90s was wild for gaming news, like there was shocking stuff every year, nowadays is tame.

1991 - Super NES launch (West), Sonic releases, 16-bit battle becomes a war
1992 - Sega CD launch, Tons of hype around Super NES CD-ROM. Sony, Philips, Sony again?
1993 - Nintendo stops talking about CD-ROM and abruptly announces a 64-bit system with super duper Jurassic Park graphics from out of where. Nintendo censors Mortal Kombat.
1994 - Nintendo announces Virtual Boy? Playstation releases. Nintendo not only uncensors Mortal Kombat but is making their own violent fighting game (Killer Instinct), lol.

Imagine Sony announcing Playstation 5 two years into the PS4's product cycle, lol.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
My intuition is sensing that Sony would have @#$%ed Nintendo if they stayed in business together. Carts were the bigger mistake.

It's understandable Nintendo would have been suspicious of Sony if they did try to insist on a piece of the licensing fee pie (or even more boldly, all of it) for any period of time.

That said, choosing carts for the N64 was about the dumbest way to handle the situation.

I'm sure if today say Sony got into business with Google and some contract from several years ago vaguely gave them rights to all digital 3rd party licensing fees or something on PS5 ... Sony would probably (and rightfully so) have a shit fit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
255
Neither one of those decisions was a mistake, though, so this poll is poorly thought through... seriously, where is the "both of these were good decisions" option?

I know this has been said many times in the thread, but seriously, the title should not have the old, false "Nintendo betrayed Sony" lie in it, it's not true! Sony tried to take the SNES away from Nintendo because they inserted a 'we get all royalties from SNES CD game sales' clause, and Nintendo either missed it or didn't realize its importance until later. Once they did, of course making a console with Sony was out of the question, you can't let another company get all the licensing fees on your platform! So of course Nintendo did the right thing when they dropped Sony, it was the only move to make in that situation. They should have avoided it in the first place by pushing back against that clause in the first place of course, but oh well. As it is, this move was a good decision that helped Nintendo quite a bit and did no damage. In the end, not releasing a CD addon to the SNES was probably the right move; I like the Turbo CD and the Sega CD, but a SNES CD just wasn't necessary. Carts were fine.


And as for the N64 using cartridges, as a big fan of the N64, I have never regretted this in the slightest. Yes, certainly, the N64 was MUCH less successful in Japan than it would have been had it used CDs. Part of why Sony won Japan was because of people disliking how controlling Nintendo was being and would have happened anyway, but part was because of the N64 not using CDs, while developers wanted FMV cutscenes and such in their games. Square led the charge to Sony and helped convince other devs to follow, and they may have been less aggressive about that if the N64 also used CDs. The N64 might have sold better and been more popular had it used CDs. It would have had more games as well, most likely, whether or not it sold better, because of cheaper manufacturing costs.

However, the benefits of the Nintendo 64 using cartridges are, to me, much greater! Sure, a CD-based N64 would have had a chance of selling better and such, but it would have had worse games. Games like Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Banjo, and the like, were almost certainly not possible on CD technology of the mid '90s. You run into RAM limits, and the scale of large areas in the N64 relied on the cartridge medium for very fast loading times, something impossible on a CD game. And then when going into the next area, it can load almost immediately on N64, instead of waiting for a long CD load! That games can load data quickly from the cart into the RAM is a core part of the N64's design, and it would be a significantly worse console with discs. This was a big part of why Nintendo went with carts back then, along with hardware-control reasons (only Nintendo can make the carts, etc.), and I do believe it. Some N64 games compress data on the cartridge and have loading times as a result, but most don't, and either way they have a significant advantage over disc based games in ways both visible and not. I would rather have an N64 with very fast load times and quick access to game data, than one with way more games and CDs, because those games would, in their gameplay portions, be on the whole not as good.


So, neither of these are good choices. One was a very good decision, and the other one has upsides and downsides and overall, for those N64 fans like me, is a definite positive. Even if a disccc-based N64 had led to Sony failing with their Playstation, I'd probably rather be in this reality where the N64 used carts because I do believe that for gameplay it was the better choice, and in games gameplay is what matters the most. Eventually, with faster disc drives and better use of clever programming to stream data from discs, disc games would catch up to cartridges, just about -- see the Gamecube, for example -- but technology was definitely not there yet in the early to mid '90s when the N64 was being designed. The N64 shows that in the mid '90s, cartridges were still better than discs.
 
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AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I'm just about positive that it came in at 249. I'm relying only on my memory, though. GameCube came in at a surprising 199.
Nope. It came out at $199 but they originally announced it was going to cost $250 when it was supposed to come out in 1995 but after the delay they said it'd be $50 less.
 
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AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Probably would've looked the same, but would've sounded a lot better.
Not true, they would've looked a lot better too. The main reason N64 games looked so blurry was because they had to use super low res textures and then spread them over big polygons in order to save storage space thus resulting in games looking super muddy. N64 using 680MB CDs instead of 16-64MB cartridges would've make a ton of difference in looks, not just sound.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
Well to have that game, you'd almost assuredly have to have some kind of CD format as one of your format choices ... which then opens the door to about 800 other games the N64 probably missed out on.

But at the top end ...

Mario 64 + GoldenEye + Zelda: OoT + Final Fantasy 7/8/9 + Mario Kart 64 .... is a ridiculous 1-2-3-4-5 combination.

That poster specifically said CD or no CD. I mean, if Nintendo produced a different console with a different attitude towards fees and third party publishers then yeah things would have been different. If the N64 has a CD-ROM but Nintendo is still stingy and Sony offers Square Enix the great deal that they did, maybe they still take it. Would Nintendo fully embrace the cinematic, mature games the way Sony did?

And let's be honest with ourselves, Final Fantasy wasn't the huge franchise it became until PlayStation. The symboisis of great Gen 6 Final Fantasy games, plus the marketing Sony did for the game to make FFVII have the mass appeal it did, lead to JRPG's really breaking through in the West.

We can try to think about what Nintendo would have been like if basically everything about them were different at any point in time, but we should try to be realistic. If the N64 was CD-based how would that have affected their games like Mario 64, Ocarina of Time and so on? There's an assumption some make where if N64 has a CD-ROM not only does the N64 get all of the games PlayStation got but also they ignore how games Nintendo did make would be altered.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Not true, they would've looked a lot better too. The main reason N64 games looked so blurry was because they had to use super low res textures and then spread them over big polygons in order to save storage space thus resulting in games looking super muddy. N64 using 680MB CDs instead of 16-64MB cartridges would've make a ton of difference in looks, not just sound.

Probably. Hard to know for sure. To be honest I always thought for the time that N64 games looked quite nice (mid-late 90s), never really had a big problem in that regard.

The "1 game a month, now wait four months for the next game you want to play" and "remember this franchise you loved on the NES and SNES for the last 10 years? Now you have to buy a Playstation to play it!" was a far bigger issue.

I think Mario 64 was going to be made the way it was because Miyamoto said so, maybe there would have been some changes to Zelda but not massive ones. I suspect Miyamoto would've insisted on cartridge only or cartridge + CD-ROM only for music as a combo.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Carts was easily worse all thier big third party series on the nes and snes left for PlayStation and yes some of that was Nintendo strong arming everyone but a big part was CDs. It was cheaper and offer a lot more space.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
A CD N64 would have been significantly more successful vs PSX, however if it were Saturn vs N64 (cart) - Nintendo would have been even better off.
I don't think it would have beena guarentee that the n64 cd would have been more successful especially if Nintendo was as cocky as they were. They would have probably sold slightly better but they had pretty poor third party relations and Sony had very good.

The biggest mistake was nintendo screwing sony. They got what they deserved in that.

If you don't value Nintendo's existence you could easily say that. If you are one of the many that openly admit that they make good games, but I wish they were third party so I could play them on Sony hardware, you can see how that logic would line up.
I value Nintendo's existance but this is an easy question imo.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,440
what's hilarious to me is how the poll is pretty much 50-50, but one of the options doesn't make any sense anyway. i can't see how anyone in 2019, knowing all the facts, can look back and say that "betraying" sony was a mistake by nintendo, knowing that they would have been fucked if they hadn't done it.
between those two options, only one of them is a mistake that nintendo made
.

If you don't value Nintendo's existence you could easily say that. If you are one of the many that openly admit that they make good games, but I wish they were third party so I could play them on Sony hardware, you can see how that logic would line up.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I don't think it would have beena guarentee that the n64 cd would have been more successful especially if Nintendo was as cocky as they were. They would have probably sold slightly better but they had pretty poor third party relations and Sony had very good.

Relations don't have much to do with it though. I'm sure some devs for example bristle at Apple's policies, but no one is going to ignore iOS to be Android only. It's business at the end of the day, if half or more than half of your audience is buying an N64, you have to make games for it unless there is some really bizarre hold up ... like say a format that stores 1/10th the data for 10x the cost.

The only developer Nintendo I think probably should've sat down with and said showed a little love to was maybe Squaresoft. They had a good relationship though as they were still working on Mario RPG even by 1996.

A little sake, some good sushi, hash it out, promise them Mario RPG 2 on N64 and marketing for FF7 and move on.
 

Kerotan

Banned
Oct 31, 2018
3,951
Nintendo also had their own wins against Sony, they destroyed their handheld business with the Monster Hunter deal, and they are outselling them in Japan and even the US. in Japan it has been complete dominance for three systems now (DS, 3DS, and now Switch).
they both found their place in the market, and they work in a different way.

sometimes you can't avoid competition, its a business after all, they should've fought for every single third party title to be on their platform, but they probably underestimated Sony and didn't think they would be this successful when they have 0 history/experience on developing video games, they probably thought they will fail like other electronic companies.
The monster Hunter deal was epic but even with that game the Vita wouldn't have even sold a third of the PSP.

While what you say is true we are talking home consoles here and Nintendo haven't dominated Sony anywhere with a traditional home console except for the US with the Wii.

In Japan the ps1 and ps2 were the Dominant home consoles. The Wii narrowly beat the ps3 and the ps4 dominated the Wii U.

Sony are now out of the portable market and Nintendo out of the traditional home console market. In the end Sony entering reduced Nintendo to 1 platform rather then 2. Not that it's a bad thing for us consumers.

Sony will be happy with where they are now and I bet Nintendo wished they were still the home console kind pulling in all that third party money Sony gets and that ps plus goldmine.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Relations don't have much to do with it though. I'm sure some devs for example bristle at Apple's policies, but no one is going to ignore iOS to be Android only. It's business at the end of the day, if half or more than half of your audience is buying an N64, you have to make games for it unless there is some really bizarre hold up ... like say a format that stores 1/10th the data for 10x the cost.
With Nintendo's attitude back than, I think it's more reasonable to believe that companies wouldn't be rushing to make games for the n64 cd but I guess that also depends on what console prices would be and what third parties are exclusives.
 
Oct 25, 2017
255
Not true, they would've looked a lot better too. The main reason N64 games looked so blurry was because they had to use super low res textures and then spread them over big polygons in order to save storage space thus resulting in games looking super muddy. N64 using 680MB CDs instead of 16-64MB cartridges would've make a ton of difference in looks, not just sound.
No, N64 texture resolution is more because of the system's only actual design issue, the small texture cache. Using carts over CDs was a very good decision which made games better, but the systems' tiny texture cache proved to be a critical flaw. The system was designed with games like Mario 64 more in mind is the issue -- that is, Nintendo and SGI thought that developers would be using a mixture of shaded and textured polygons, so a relatively small texture cache would be fine. Additionally, SGI's big focus in the consoles' graphics chip was on all of the new things it could do -- mip-mapping, perspective correction, anti-aliasing, Z-buffering, and more. Those features used a LOT of hardware power. They hyped the console by showing how when you got close to a texture on the N64, you didn't see blocky textures like you do on Playstation; instead, everything blends together smoothly. Some people criticize this, but at the time it was pretty amazing stuff, and I certainly would still strongly prefer a smoothed texture over a super-pixelated one, if we compare N64 to Playstation graphics. Anyway, regardless of that, all of those effects change the textures enough that the low resolution is not as noticeable as it would be on a console with textures that same size, but without all of the effects the N64 applies. Still, though, the original concept was to have only some textured polygons, not ALL textured polygons.

Unfortunately, however, by the time the N64 released people wanted games that were 100% textured, which caused problems on the N64 because of how the system works and its small cache. You can only fit a relatively small number of textures into the N64s' texture cache at a time, so developers had to reduce texture size on the system as a result of that. Some games use some nice tricks to make fantastic looking detail on the N64, such as Battle for Naboo and Rare's later games, but a lot of the earlier ones show the problems with the texture cache size choice. Cartridge size limitations were also a factor of course, but they were not the main element driving N64 games' usual low texture resolutions.
 
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AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I'm thrilled this poll is so fucking close to 50-50. When I made this thread I made it because I honestly couldn't clearly see which one was the biggest Nintendo mistake of all time and was hoping Era could help me decide but it seems you guys are just as much torn as I was.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
Sony struck gold by by being lucky enough to enter at the exact right time. Other big names like Panasonic and Atari had just tried and failed to make a splash, Nintendo was secure but third parties were grumbling and desperate for a real alternative, and Sega spent the entire run-up to the Saturn kneecapping itself over and over with in-fighting between the US and Japanese branches, needless Genesis add-ons, and fundamental disagreements about the Saturn's direction.
 
Oct 25, 2017
255
Sony struck gold by by being lucky enough to enter at the exact right time. Other big names like Panasonic and Atari had just tried and failed to make a splash, Nintendo was secure but third parties were grumbling and desperate for a real alternative, and Sega spent the entire run-up to the Saturn kneecapping itself over and over with in-fighting between the US and Japanese branches, needless Genesis add-ons, and fundamental disagreements about the Saturn's direction.
This is true, but it was also partially because of good decisions by Sony. Sony hit at just the right moment, yes, and did far better than almost anyone expected partially as a result. They could take advantage of developer unhappiness with Nintendo, Sega's tearing itself apart, and some pretty good tech. Because as much as I dislike Sony, the Playstation was quite well designed -- none of the other systems of that time have as good a balance of power and low price as it does. Timing is a part of that -- as 3DO saw, the one year between the 3DO's release and the Playstation's was significant -- but good design is also a part, as the Saturn shows. The Playstation is definitely easier to program for than the major competition (Saturn and N64), too, from what I've read.

There are no bad opinions... except for this one right here.
If Nintendo hadn't "betrayed" Sony and had actually released a SNES CD, Sony would have gotten total control over all licensing for the SNES CD. Nintendo would either have been forced out of the industry, or would have had to make a new console that was not in partnership with Sony to get away from the thing. Either way it would hurt them. Continuing with a partnership with Sony would have been a terrible idea for Nintendo unless they wanted to be a Sony subsidiary someday, which Nintendo most certainly did not.

Making the N64 a disc-based console (presumably not with Sony!) would have been horrible because it would have made the N64 a worse console. Worse gameplay, smaller areas in some games, long load times everywhere... it would have been frustrating, just like how all of the other disc-based consoles of the day are. And I don't think that it would have succeeded at beating the Playstation, either, because Nintendo had annoyed so many developers so much with their controlling ways that a lot of them were looking for a better deal, they just didn't have one in Japan in the SNES days. So a disc-based N64 would be the worst of both worlds -- you'd still have lost most of the third parties to Sony, but you'd also have a worse, disc-based N64. There is no upside.

So, both of these are great decisions. Sales numbers are not the only judge of how good a console is, the games are! And the N64 would most definitely be worse with discs.
 

hussien-11

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,315
Jordan
So, neither of these are good choices. One was a very good decision, and the other one has upsides and downsides and overall, for those N64 fans like me, is a definite positive. Even if a disccc-based N64 had led to Sony failing with their Playstation, I'd probably rather be in this reality where the N64 used carts because I do believe that for gameplay it was the better choice, and in games gameplay is what matters the most. Eventually, with faster disc drives and better use of clever programming to stream data from discs, disc games would catch up to cartridges, just about -- see the Gamecube, for example -- but technology was definitely not there yet in the early to mid '90s when the N64 was being designed. The N64 shows that in the mid '90s, cartridges were still better than discs.

The Wii U was really bizarre. with how Nintendo's systems always favored speed/user experience, it was shocking that they choose very slow RAM for the Wii U and how slow the whole experience was.
i also agree they were not totally wrong with their thinking about cartridges. for example, people disliked the use of UMD with the PSP because of loading times and how slow it was, and preferred DS cartridges even though game sizes were much smaller, because of how quick it was.
Switch is also very quick and easy to play and i think people like this a lot. it is a lot faster to start a game on Switch compared to any other console.
 
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AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Making the N64 a disc-based console (presumably not with Sony!) would have been horrible because it would have made the N64 a worse console. Worse gameplay, smaller areas in some games, long load times everywhere... it would have been frustrating, just like how all of the other disc-based consoles of the day are. And I don't think that it would have succeeded at beating the Playstation, either, because Nintendo had annoyed so many developers so much with their controlling ways that a lot of them were looking for a better deal, they just didn't have one in Japan in the SNES days. So a disc-based N64 would be the worst of both worlds -- you'd still have lost most of the third parties to Sony, but you'd also have a worse, disc-based N64. There is no upside.

So, both of these are great decisions. Sales numbers are not the only judge of how good a console is, the games are! And the N64 would most definitely be worse with discs.
Just because these terrible decisions were so bad that they made Nintendo rethink their entire business and strategies that would yield positive results 10-20 years after the fact don't make these original decisions any less bad. It just means Nintendo recovered and turned around great but those decisions weren't made thinking what they'd achieve with the Wii in 2006 or the Switch in 2017, they were made to kee Nintendo in the game and kee growing with the N64 and they failed at that spectacularly, especially in Japan where they didn't end in a distant second like everywhere else, they were struggling with the freaking Sega Saturn!

Making the N64 disc based would not have ruined the N64, consoles fail for more reasons than just that. The PS1 being a massive success while using CDs is a testament that great CD games could still be made in the 90s and the public didn't care it had longer loading times.

Nintendo wasn't thinking 5 steps ahead, they were thinking with one step behind in the past!
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Did they? Could you hook me up? That sounds like a fascinating read!
Per Wikipedia :

As the Nintendo 64 reached the end of its lifecycle, hardware development chief Genyo Takeda referred to its programming challenges using the word hansei (Japanese: 反省 "reflective regret"). Takeda said, "When we made Nintendo 64, we thought it was logical that if you want to make advanced games, it becomes technically more difficult. We were wrong. We now understand it's the cruising speed that matters, not the momentary flash of peak power."

Sadly there's no direct link for that quote.
 

Oliver James

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
Sony entering the fray was better for everyone in the long run. Nintendo not dominating completely was good, they were starting to be a pain back then.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Thanks. That sounds about right. But hey, we have ppl here saying there was nothing wrong about the N64, right?
If I find something else I'll post it here but I'm standing on a bus on my way home haha

And yeah, people tend to overlook the console's shortcomings because it has some pretty good games, but I think they're good despite the hardware, not exactly thanks to it.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,891
Columbia, SC
Carts by a mile. I was fortunate enough to have a PS1 and N64 growing up, and I specifically remember being able to get 2 or 3 ps1 games to the 1 N64 game I could get. Could have had bigger games, better sound, and better textures. The relatively small load times for carts are the only positive I can toss nintendo's way for having carts.
 
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AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Carts by a mile. I was fortunate enough to have a PS1 and N64 growing up, and I specifically remember being able to get 2 or 3 ps1 games to the 1 N64 game I could get. Could have had bigger games, better sound, and better textures. The relatively small load times for carts are the only positive I can toss nintendo's way for having carts.
They were also more durable but if you didn't have younger siblings and/or weren't a little destroyer yourself you shouldn't have much issues with your PS1 discs. Although I'll admit that after 10+ years of handling Blu-rays (Jesus it's been that long!?) I've forgotten how much more sensible to scratches the CD format was in comparison. Blu-rays are fucking tanks!
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,891
Columbia, SC
They were also more durable but if you didn't have younger siblings and/or weren't a little destroyer yourself you shouldn't have much issues with your PS1 discs. Although I'll admit that after 10+ years of handling Blu-rays (Jesus it's been that long!?) I've forgotten how much more sensible to scratches the CD format was in comparison. Blu-rays are fucking tanks!

You're right. I had younger siblings. I also went through 3 copies of SOTN, 2 copies of FF7, 2 copies of star ocean 2, and 2 copies of Tekken 3 because of them. I know this pain.
 

JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,332
I always wonder about an alternate timeline where Square develops Saturn games instead of PlayStation games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
255
Per Wikipedia :



Sadly there's no direct link for that quote.
That quote isn't about either of the two issues in the OP, though. That is talking about something else entirely, the challenge of programming for the N64. As I said in my last post in this thread, Sony managed to make a console which was significantly easier to program for than Sega or Nintendo's, and developers liked that. Of course devs will work with a more challenging system if its popular -- see the Playstation 2, which is by all accounts hard to program for but due to its success got vast numbers of games -- but easier is nice, and Nintendo and Sega both made consoles that were hard to program for. Both then made the situation worse by not giving developers full information about the hardware, making situations where first party N64 and Saturn games look better than third party ones not only because of more effort or something, but because the first party was not sharing some important hardware programming details to many other companies.

And then, both reacted to their past failings by making consoles with much easier, more understandable development and better tools. The Dreamcast and Gamecube both show this quite well, they're vastly easier to handle systems than their predecessors.

If I find something else I'll post it here but I'm standing on a bus on my way home haha.
I already did one post on what I think the N64's biggest hardware flaw is (the small texture cache), but they absolutely also should have shared more detailed hardware info with third parties. They needed the help. It also would have been great if Nintendo had offered more microcode options; the one microcode they offer is great for 3d games, but one for 2d games that disables the smoothing filters might have been good, and also being a little more willing to let more capable third party developers make their own microcode, too, instead of only doing so with close companies (Factor 5 and such) and Boss Games, pretty much. I can understand why Nintendo didn't offer these, since they had made such a huge deal about how the N64's smoothed textures were better than blocky pixelated ones so they didn't want to offer other options and thanks to the small texture cache N64 games never would have textures or sprites as sharp and high-detail as the Saturn could do, but still they could have been better than they are. I mean, I definitely prefer the look of smoothed N64 polygons to pixeley textures of that era in 3d games, but even I wouldn't say it makes the N64's 2d offerings look better...

And yeah, people tend to overlook the console's shortcomings because it has some pretty good games, but I think they're good despite the hardware, not exactly thanks to it
No, they are good thanks to the great hardware in the box. People like to exaggerate how bad the N64's hardware issues were, but for the most part the design was very strong. It had a few issues, but everything does in some way. It was a tough time to be making consoles, polygonal 3d graphics were brand new and everyone were trying to figure out how to make them work well. They would figure things out eventually, but every system of the time has drawbacks somewhere. The N64's are just very, very well examined, presumably because of how much a lot of people like, or like to not like, Nintendo...

I always wonder about an alternate timeline where Square develops Saturn games instead of PlayStation games.
This scenario is a pretty fascinating one to think about indeed.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,886
Asia
The Playstation is definitely easier to program for than the major competition (Saturn and N64), too, from what I've read.

(From my own experience working on N64 games...)

Fundamentally putting a CD drive on the Nintendo 64 hardware would be a mistake. The hardware SGI delivered ended up being underpowered (compared to their desktop solutions) and unbalanced (Rambus latency being awful). Perfect for 3D Rendering and just a disaster for games. Carts were a way of getting around that latency because you could make calls directly from the cartridge and bypass main memory entirely. Combined with the texture cache issue, there just wouldn't be much hope to match PS1 title-by-title.

The thing is though, those two pieces of hardware (SGI and CD) were never both in the cards. For one, hardware planning takes years in advance - back when this was happening, hardware cost of the drive would be around $100 if not more - so if Nintendo had to decide on technological reasons instead of business ones, I think it's highly likely the only "CD" option would be to ship 1-2 years earlier, using a cheaper and simpler architecture...basically, the PlayStation.

Early games like SM64 honestly wouldn't be that different. You'd see longer initial load and level loads, but texture support (if they fixed the cache issue) would have been far better. Gameplay would be the same. The interesting "what if?" would be if it shipped with 4MB of RAM. The Hanshin earthquake didn't devastate RAM supply as much as people think, but I also suspect the cost of RAM even 18 months earlier would have been possibly 50% more. (These were the days where desktops still had 4-8MB!) So the PS1 standard (2+1) is actually very telling of its release year.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
Nothing compares to Nintendo's colossal fuck up of stabbing Sony in the back at Summer CES 1991.

A few articles from August/September 1991.

JZISnix.jpg


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UO9NLFC.jpg
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,408
There are a lot of mistakes that Nintendo has made in the past, but between the two, I would give it to the actual creation of PlayStation as a different brand.

My understanding is that Sony would give developers staff to help them work on games if they needed it and worked with developers in general, whereas Nintendo and Sega had a more hands-off approach. There were a lot of things PlayStation did that benefited the industry, for developers and game enthusiasts alike, something that wouldn't have happened if they weren't screwed by Nintendo.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
(From my own experience working on N64 games...)

Fundamentally putting a CD drive on the Nintendo 64 hardware would be a mistake. The hardware SGI delivered ended up being underpowered (compared to their desktop solutions) and unbalanced (Rambus latency being awful). Perfect for 3D Rendering and just a disaster for games. Carts were a way of getting around that latency because you could make calls directly from the cartridge and bypass main memory entirely. Combined with the texture cache issue, there just wouldn't be much hope to match PS1 title-by-title.

The thing is though, those two pieces of hardware (SGI and CD) were never both in the cards. For one, hardware planning takes years in advance - back when this was happening, hardware cost of the drive would be around $100 if not more - so if Nintendo had to decide on technological reasons instead of business ones, I think it's highly likely the only "CD" option would be to ship 1-2 years earlier, using a cheaper and simpler architecture...basically, the PlayStation.

Early games like SM64 honestly wouldn't be that different. You'd see longer initial load and level loads, but texture support (if they fixed the cache issue) would have been far better. Gameplay would be the same. The interesting "what if?" would be if it shipped with 4MB of RAM. The Hanshin earthquake didn't devastate RAM supply as much as people think, but I also suspect the cost of RAM even 18 months earlier would have been possibly 50% more. (These were the days where desktops still had 4-8MB!) So the PS1 standard (2+1) is actually very telling of its release year.

The N64 could've ran any format, as is it had cartridges and 64DD disks anyway.

SGI shopped the Project: Reality chip to Sega first before Nintendo actually, if Sega had bought it it almost certainly would've been a CD-based system.

Many at Nintendo expected Project: Reality to be CD-based, I remember either Howard Lincoln or Peter Main (higher ups at NOA) at the time talking like CD was a no brainer for Project: Reality. The news that the system was going to be cartridge based was a big shock.

My guess is the real culprit is Miyamoto (and probably a group of others at EAD) being frustrated with loading times on SNES CD projects and what Miyamoto wanted is what Miyamoto got. Yamauchi probably just figured the guy is the best game designer in the world and every bet he made on Miyamoto to that point had turned golden.
 

Deleted member 19702

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1,722
Neither one of those decisions was a mistake, though, so this poll is poorly thought through... seriously, where is the "both of these were good decisions" option?

I know this has been said many times in the thread, but seriously, the title should not have the old, false "Nintendo betrayed Sony" lie in it, it's not true! Sony tried to take the SNES away from Nintendo because they inserted a 'we get all royalties from SNES CD game sales' clause, and Nintendo either missed it or didn't realize its importance until later. Once they did, of course making a console with Sony was out of the question, you can't let another company get all the licensing fees on your platform! So of course Nintendo did the right thing when they dropped Sony, it was the only move to make in that situation. They should have avoided it in the first place by pushing back against that clause in the first place of course, but oh well. As it is, this move was a good decision that helped Nintendo quite a bit and did no damage. In the end, not releasing a CD addon to the SNES was probably the right move; I like the Turbo CD and the Sega CD, but a SNES CD just wasn't necessary. Carts were fine.


And as for the N64 using cartridges, as a big fan of the N64, I have never regretted this in the slightest. Yes, certainly, the N64 was MUCH less successful in Japan than it would have been had it used CDs. Part of why Sony won Japan was because of people disliking how controlling Nintendo was being and would have happened anyway, but part was because of the N64 not using CDs, while developers wanted FMV cutscenes and such in their games. Square led the charge to Sony and helped convince other devs to follow, and they may have been less aggressive about that if the N64 also used CDs. The N64 might have sold better and been more popular had it used CDs. It would have had more games as well, most likely, whether or not it sold better, because of cheaper manufacturing costs.

However, the benefits of the Nintendo 64 using cartridges are, to me, much greater! Sure, a CD-based N64 would have had a chance of selling better and such, but it would have had worse games. Games like Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Banjo, and the like, were almost certainly not possible on CD technology of the mid '90s. You run into RAM limits, and the scale of large areas in the N64 relied on the cartridge medium for very fast loading times, something impossible on a CD game. And then when going into the next area, it can load almost immediately on N64, instead of waiting for a long CD load! That games can load data quickly from the cart into the RAM is a core part of the N64's design, and it would be a significantly worse console with discs. This was a big part of why Nintendo went with carts back then, along with hardware-control reasons (only Nintendo can make the carts, etc.), and I do believe it. Some N64 games compress data on the cartridge and have loading times as a result, but most don't, and either way they have a significant advantage over disc based games in ways both visible and not. I would rather have an N64 with very fast load times and quick access to game data, than one with way more games and CDs, because those games would, in their gameplay portions, be on the whole not as good.


So, neither of these are good choices. One was a very good decision, and the other one has upsides and downsides and overall, for those N64 fans like me, is a definite positive. Even if a disccc-based N64 had led to Sony failing with their Playstation, I'd probably rather be in this reality where the N64 used carts because I do believe that for gameplay it was the better choice, and in games gameplay is what matters the most. Eventually, with faster disc drives and better use of clever programming to stream data from discs, disc games would catch up to cartridges, just about -- see the Gamecube, for example -- but technology was definitely not there yet in the early to mid '90s when the N64 was being designed. The N64 shows that in the mid '90s, cartridges were still better than discs.

Great post, as usual, from you. But I have to disagree choosing carts for N64 was a good decision. Despite many of the pros you mentioned, like Super Mario 64, OOT, Banjo being unable to be made properly into 90's CD technology, there were many drawbacks which alienated development from it. Such as:

- High production costs. No secret why cart games were more expensive than CDs. As previously said in this thread, Nintendo couldn't drop the price on the same level as PSX's titles.
- High development costs. A major reason why the third-party exodus happened.
- High licensing and manufacturing fees. Another major reason why third-parties prefered CDs than carts, plus, Nintendo heavily controlled the cart manufactuing demand, sometimes not being able to handle enough carts for third-parties or rather not providing enough cart storage space for their games. This is what happened with Square in the SNES, hence why Secret of Mana took major cuts, and a major reason why both Nintendo and Square relationship got shaken culminating into their split.
- Limited storage space. This is, perhaps, one of the greatest drawbacks of carts - and we can see even now with Switch. Most multiplat N64 games had to be compressed, causing major data loss, in order to fill the cart properly. Capcom did this with both RE2 and MML, for example. It was almost impossible to port multidisk games to it, that's why J-RPGs got absent from the system.
- Inferior audio. Yeah, this is undoubtely one of the strongest gaps between carts and CDs by the time. Audio difference between both medias was alarming.
- No CGI. PSX and Saturn's CGI might look ugly by now, but at the time they were mindblowing gorgeous for the public's eye and they blew away by far any standard graphics of the time. Many wondered, by the time, why N64 couldn't reproduce such features? Another reason why some devs prefered developing for CDs because they were easier to make CGI. Sure, Nintendo 64 got some CGI as well, such as RE2, but they had to be heavily compressed (loosing quality in return) in order to fill the cart storage.

Nintendo also already knew the N64 hardware and media storage weren't enough to properly attend the demands of the time, hence why they got the 64DD as an ace in the hole to fill it's deficiences. They knew already the standard N64 wouldn't be able to run Square and Enix's titles properly, even their own Mother 3 (hence why it was canned and released for GBA later), and they knew this genre was very important for Nintendo's exodus in the japanese market. Once Square left and took pretty every single japanese developer with it, Nintendo lost their ace in the hole because they no longer had J-RPG support, the reason why 64DD was created in the first place. No secret why Nintendo left it for dead and not even released it in the west, they didn't had a reason anymore to keep supporting it. In a sum, NINTENDO KNEW THEY SCREW UP WITH N64 and tried to repair the damage mid course.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Forget Sony, even if it was only Sega ... the Saturn probably beats the N64 too if those were the only two systems.

It would start off shaky but the Saturn would've eventually found its legs by having a monopoly on basically most of the top tier 3rd party games in that case.

FF7, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil series, etc. etc. etc. just would've ended up on the Saturn instead. Those games were simply not possible on the N64 without going to extreme measures (RE2's extreme compression and massive cart size on N64).
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Great post, as usual, from you. But I have to disagree choosing carts for N64 was a good decision. Despite many of the pros you mentioned, like Super Mario 64, OOT, Banjo being unable to be made properly into 90's CD technology, there were many drawbacks which alienated development from it. Such as:

- High production costs. No secret why cart games were more expensive than CDs. As previously said in this thread, Nintendo couldn't drop the price on the same level as PSX's titles.
- High development costs. A major reason why the third-party exodus happened.
- High licensing and manufacturing fees. Another major reason why third-parties prefered CDs than carts, plus, Nintendo heavily controlled the cart manufactuing demand, sometimes not being able to handle enough carts for third-parties or rather not providing enough cart storage space for their games. This is what happened with Square in the SNES, hence why Secret of Mana took major cuts, and a major reason why both Nintendo and Square relationship got shaken culminating into their split.
- Limited storage space. This is, perhaps, one of the greatest drawbacks of carts - and we can see even now with Switch. Most multiplat N64 games had to be compressed, causing major data loss, in order to fill the cart properly. Capcom did this with both RE2 and MML, for example. It was almost impossible to port multidisk games to it, that's why J-RPGs got absent from the system.
- Inferior audio. Yeah, this is undoubtely one of the strongest gaps between carts and CDs by the time. Audio difference between both medias were alarming.
- No CGI. PSX and Saturn's CGI might look ugly by now, but at the time they were mindblowing gorgeous for the public's eye and they blew away by far any standard graphics of the time. Many wondered, by the time, why N64 couldn't reproduce such features? Another reason why some devs prefered developing for CDs because they were easier to make CGI. Sure, Nintendo 64 got some CGI as well, such as RE2, but they had to be heavily compressed (loosing quality in return) in order to fill the cart storage.

Nintendo also already knew the N64 hardware and media storage weren't enough to properly attend the demands of the time, hence why they got the 64DD as an ace in the hole to fill it's deficiences. They knew already the standard N64 wouldn't be able to run Square and Enix's titles properly, even their own Mother 3 (hence why it was canned and released for GBA later) and Metroid (Sakamoto said he didn't made Metroid for N64 because of the carts), and they knew this genre was very important for Nintendo's exodus in the japanese market. Once Square left and took pretty every single japanese developer with it, Nintendo lost their ace in the hole because they no longer had J-RPG support, the reason why 64DD was created in the first place. No secret why Nintendo left it for dead and not even released it in the west, they didn't had a reason anymore to keep supporting it. In a sum, NINTENDO KNEW THEY SCREW UP WITH N64 and tried to repair the damage mid course.

64DD was announced pretty much early on in the game though, it was announced I believe at Shoshinkai 1995 show where Mario 64 and Kirby Bowl were shown for the first time.

64DD was also not a great idea. They should have just compromised at that point and replaced that with N64 CD-drive if they were going to do that. If you're going to make a "solution" for third parties, like why not actually give them the format they want, lol.
 

Xbox Live Mike

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
2,435
USA
That is a tough question. I don't think that Mario 64 would have been able to have been the masterpiece it was if it was made on CD at the time. Betraying Sony? Sounded like a bad deal that should never have been made in the first place
 

DanSensei

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,213
If Nintendo used CDs on the N64, they'd have stayed on top and beaten PlayStation hands down. If anything, PlayStation would've become the place for the cool obscure games once Sega killed the Saturn.
 

Deleted member 19702

User requested account closure
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1,722
If Nintendo used CDs on the N64, they'd have stayed on top and beaten PlayStation hands down. If anything, PlayStation would've become the place for the cool obscure games once Sega killed the Saturn.

If Nintendo used CDs for N64, it would probably create a situation similar to DS vs. PSP and/or 3DS vs. Vita. Nintendo still on top but Sony taking solid support, pretty much another SNES vs. Genesis situation.

Sega's downfall in the hardware market was inevitable, that company was a complete irredeemable management shipwreck.