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Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,446
How does this still happen? No fucking respect for their own characters or the people this might offend.
It's such a serious topic in the game and then they proceed to make fun of it. What the hell?
 

Deleted member 11976

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,585
It's offensive and unimaginative. Scrap it or replace it with something worthy of being an achievement/trophy.
 

sora87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
The same guy that wrote that (Grimoire Nier and Drama CD spoilers)
Kaine has (literally) a monster dick and masturbates every night after going to hunt some shades because of course she's some kind of pervert (she also rapes a death corpse in the Drama CD).

Dude probably has good intentions at his core but he absolutely botches it because shock or whatever the fuck he tries to do.

Like, I don't necessary think he's responsible of this trophy, but at the same time it checks out with some of the stuff he does IMO.

Sometimes i feel it's better not to know about the wider lore for some games you really enjoy :(
 

Yushi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
704
Is this Kainé herself or Tyrann controlling Kainé?

Pretty sure she's being controlled after the death of her grandmother. Now if its Tyrann that i'm not certain. Thats for the Monster dick and masturbating part. As for the raping corpse part in the Drama CD, I think he was
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,841
the wilderness
Please don't twist my post, I don't think the 2B achievement is good either. Someone probably referenced the achievement text without malicious intent and then nobody noticed (which someone should have! I get a single person overlooking this but not however many who had to sign this off).

No. It's not just about the text, but the very nature of the achievement, especially in its context. And just imagine how many people are involved in its creation. It is completely impossible that the inclusion of a new achievement of this nature was made as a "mistake". It is very much intentional.

It feels like so many people are treating these kinds of things like if the developers were young children. "Aww, they tried to do something but they made a mess. That's OK, they'll do better eventually..." But they aren't children, they are all full-grown adults who are accountable for what they do. People definitely need to hold them more accountable for every aspect of their work.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,392
The same guy that wrote that (Grimoire Nier and Drama CD spoilers)
Kaine has (literally) a monster dick and masturbates every night after going to hunt some shades because of course she's some kind of pervert (she also rapes a death corpse in the Drama CD).

Dude probably has good intentions at his core but he absolutely botches it because shock or whatever the fuck he tries to do.

Like, I don't necessary think he's responsible of this trophy, but at the same time it checks out with some of the stuff he does IMO.
Nah bruh ima need some source for this one, you cant just be like HORRIFIC SPOILER and just expect me to casually believe it over the internet
Unless he was using some alias or something
175133038_1155146591575543_7249033773198436375_n.png
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,285
Wow. How does this shit pass any fucking level of QA. This is exploitative on a different level, and complicit in old and extremely fucked up ideas of someone's complex sexuality being framed as a truth to be discovered, a secret to be exposed. This is deeply linked to violence against real people.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Would it be worth tweeting at the Square Enix USA and NieR Twitter accounts to get this removed?

It's not enough that it's optional, that it's there at all is an endorsement from the game to you to fetishize Kaine for being intersex
 

Yushi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
704
Nah bruh ima need some source for this one, you cant just be like HORRIFIC SPOILER and just expect me to casually believe it over the internet
Unless he was using some alias or something

nier.fandom.com

Grimoire NieR

Grimoire NieR is a book released only in Japan that serves as both a strategy guide and world guide for NieR. A revised edition was released for NieR Replicant ver.1.22474487139... on July 9th, 2021, with an English release on August 29th, 2023. The book features illustrations and images...

Its very very much known by nier fan
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Yes, the description has some very bad implications due to an intersex character being involved. It seems plausible they were trying to be self-referential rather than bigoted, but that doesn't mean it's not offensive and irresponsible in practice. It's worse than the preceding example and especially tone deaf in this current social context.

Not to mention that, in and of itself, the whole idea behind this sort of achievement was already pretty creepy. That's why I hope they either remove or change it (plus, in the end, Nier Automata already pointed out the artificiality of achievements and trophies to begin with, so I'd heavily roll my eyes at any complaints from the usual suspects about an achievement being "lost" or "censored").
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
Would it be worth tweeting at the Square Enix USA and NieR Twitter accounts to get this removed?

It's not enough that it's optional, that it's there at all is an endorsement from the game to you to fetishize Kaine for being intersex

Yes, i already did and OP said it would be added so more people can, it's probably the best way to get Square's attention.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
No. It's not about the text, but the very nature of the achievement, especially in its context. And just imagine how many people are involved in its creation. It is completely impossible that the inclusion of a new achievement of this nature was made as a "mistake". It is very much intentional.

It feels like so many people are treating these kinds of things like if the developers were young children. "Aww, they tried to do something but they made a mess. That's OK, they'll do better eventually..." But they aren't children, they are all full-grown adults who are accountable for what they do. People definitely need to hold them more accountable for every aspect of their work.
I completely agree about the achievement itself. I think the 2B achievement is gross, I think this is even grosser and while I think that the wording of the achievement (which elevates it to super duper gross in context) wasn't chosen maliciously to add insult to injury but rather thoughtlessly (as a direct copy of the 2B achievement), this ofc doesn't excuse the achievement. My point was that even if it was just a thoughtless reference, someone involved should have at least tripped over that text, but not even that happened.
 

Ketaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
161
Berlin
Would it be worth tweeting at the Square Enix USA and NieR Twitter accounts to get this removed?

It's not enough that it's optional, that it's there at all is an endorsement from the game to you to fetishize Kaine for being intersex
Yes definitely good to tweet at them, but be aware that the @SquareEnixUSA account mentioned earlier in the thread is no longer active. Just use @SquareEnix instead.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Pretty sure she's being controlled after the death of her grandmother. Now if its Tyrann that i'm not certain. Thats for the Monster dick and masturbating part. As for the raping corpse part in the Drama CD, I think he was

Well then as shockingly stupid as that is, it makes sense at least.

She's not being controlled at all, Tyrant is never shown being able to fully control her iirc. The only time where he lose control is when she relapses and this is a Gestalt trait not Tyrant's doing (because her Gestalt is ded), and relapsing means simply you attack everything midlessly, like the Shades in-game.


She had noticed me by then, so I did my best not to look disturbed. Repeating 'all men are brothers' in my mind like a prayer, I showed her a smile. But her gaze was turned downward. I followed it, my eyes were pulled toward what she held in her demonic left hand. The moment I comprehended what it was, all the hairs on my body were standing on end.

What she held in her hand was… a large, engorged male member… yet it was hers. Upon the swarthy organ there were littered many veins, which I could even clearly see throbbing.

She wasn't merely possessed. She was of both sexes!

"On nights after I kill shades… …I can't stop myself…"

Lifting her head to face me in the mist, the woman spoke her first words to me. Her eyes were narrowed, her thin lips opened like a thin cut on her face. Her pupils locked onto me as their target, her left hand began to move up and down furiously. Her breathing became even more ragged, and her upturned eyes began to lose their focus. I knew what was coming next.
 
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Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Sent a tweet to @NieRGame asking for the removal of the Daredevil trophy.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,392
Wow. How does this shit pass any fucking level of QA.

I just don't think they care unfortunately as simple as that
or just "lol silly tropes looking up/harrassing women" at play
nier.fandom.com

Grimoire NieR

Grimoire NieR is a book released only in Japan that serves as both a strategy guide and world guide for NieR. A revised edition was released for NieR Replicant ver.1.22474487139... on July 9th, 2021, with an English release on August 29th, 2023. The book features illustrations and images...

Its very very much known by nier fan
Gotcha, because i saw that spoiler and i was like ????????????? no fucking way
Thanks
 
Jul 14, 2020
606
Kaine is intersex (the "justification" for her skimpy outfit is because she wants to look and feel as feminine as possible i think). The implication of the achievement is that you discover her "secret" by perving on her
The topic title tells you: Kainé is an intersex character, and a "trophy" to look up her waist (in a pic with her doing a HIGH KICK no less) is in super poor taste to a character that gets bullied for it in-game, and a condition that the real world has very little tact to deal with. And this "trophy" just proves that point.

I still don't get it.

Everyone is so sensitive these days. I know that "representation" is in vogue on this forum but I don't really care🤷🏻‍♂️

To be clear, I'm not against it. I just don't have any feelings about the representation of Italian plumbers...
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
To me, based on the previous trophy, I don't think that this was like, an intentional exploitation about her sexuality. Especially because the game makes it very clear about how shitty people literally did that to her, exposing how she was intersex. So making a joke about one of the things the game takes great pains to NOT joke about seems weird as hell? That doesn't make sense at all if intentional.

What I think happened was you had the first one, which means, "underwear." No English-speaking person would likely say "discover someone's secret" when saying look at underwear, but like, that's what it means. Maybe in a very antiquated way. For example, my girlfriend pointed out that's where Victoria's Secret's name comes from. Underwear is hidden. But we just wouldn't really talk that way in modern English, so it sounds weird. It's just a literal, very awkward translation. It clearly is referring to look at her underwear. Weird as hell, and clearly a joke at the player's expense. I get the meta joke there, but it's still weird and I'd prefer it wasn't there. But whatever. I think it should have been one time as well, to make the joke work. So if someone tried to do it, then boom they get a trophy right away making fun of them. But most people probably wouldn't naturally do it 10 times so then you have a trophy moving from pointing something out to requiring something, at which point it's now just promoting being creepy, which sucks. It'd be really funny then to see how many people got a one off version it early in the game. But whatever, it is what it is. Also like, it doesn't need to just start being done in every game in the series. It's fine as a one-off joke for automata I guess.

Okay so, now here we have that same wording again, and there's no reason to think that it doesn't mean look at her underwear ten times, again. Exact same wording, exact same achievement.

But like, how did NOBODY at Square go "hey um, so, in this game, Kaine's crotch actually, ya know, has something to do with an actual secret. And telling people to discover that over and over as a joke is kind of fucked up?? Like, her entire character is traumatized by how shitty people literally did do that? Maybe this time we should reword it? Maybe?"

To me, it looks like a situation of negligence, but holy shit what negligence. They really, really should patch it. Because as it stands now, it sounds fucked up as hell. How did no English speaker go hey guyssss what the fuckkk that's slimy and gross as hell. The first was just making fun of perverts, but in this new context, it just sounds like exploiting serious trauma of someone. Kind of ya know, bad.
 
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Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I still don't get it.

Everyone is so sensitive these days. I know that "representation" is in vogue on this forum but I don't really care🤷🏻‍♂️

To be clear, I'm not against it. I just don't have any feelings about the representation of Italian plumbers...

Because it's treating Kaine's nature as an intersex person as something taboo and transgressional, a prize the player should want to fight to have for themselves, and the game is implicitly rewarding the player for it.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,133
Peru
Oh ok ok, I didn't have the full context in the achievements thread, I also ignored what being intersex meant. With this new information holy fuck what the hell is wrong with Taro? I thought it was about being perverted towards a character (which is terrible on its own already), but it goes beyond that.
Edit: Don't quote the obvious "just asking questions" post.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,854
Weird.
Is this Kainé herself or Tyrann controlling Kainé?

Nah bruh ima need some source for this one, you cant just be like HORRIFIC SPOILER and just expect me to casually believe it over the internet
Unless he was using some alias or something




Sometimes i feel it's better not to know about the wider lore for some games you really enjoy :(


There's a bit of a misconception, it's an incredibly crude and graphic short story that I don't recommend reading, here's the TLDR

It's told by a random guy who heard terrible things about a shade woman and runs into Kainé when she saves him from some shades.
And he eventually sees her as a monster when he sees the shade take over at night. It's told in a very uncomfortable and sexual way and I have no idea how it made it into Grimoire Nier.

But it happens after she gets wounded, at night, and her shadow half is out. Under the influence of Tyrant which "she can't stop" in those conditions.
And the guy just assumes she's a perverted demonic monster.

He runs away he asks himself if hating Kainé even though she shaved him doesn't make him a bad person because she's a monster, "right" ? He asks this over and over, not convincing himself.

You're not supposed to agree with him, or his interpretation of what happened.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
I still don't get it.

Everyone is so sensitive these days. I know that "representation" is in vogue on this forum but I don't really care🤷🏻‍♂️

To be clear, I'm not against it. I just don't have any feelings about the representation of Italian plumbers...

How the hell do you not understand that an achievement asking you to bully someone in a way that the game makes clear is super fucking traumatic to that person is fucking weird as hell?

What the fuck do you mean representation?

Imagine if you have a character who the game takes great pains to explain how rape traumatized that character and ruined her life, and then you had an achievement go "lolllll just rape her like 10 times cuz funny joke." Her being a fictional character doesn't change the fact that that would be a weird and fucked up thing to do.

Now this situation isn't quite as bad, but I don't even like saying so in that way because like, it's fucked up, period.

Now, I just elaborated in my previous post what I THINK happened, and that I don't think this was an intentional fucked up joke.

But the fact that everyone is reacting to this and going um what the fuck, and the fact that nobody at square noticed is bizarre, and they should change it. Because contextually, it's just weird as hell to have a trophy, even if unintentionally, say "hey haha make fun of this person's sexual trauma that ruined her life. As a joke."

There's just no world where someone should find that funny.

I get the joke for automata even if I don't find it that funny. But this is that same lazy joke, failing to realize how fucked up it sounds with the new context.
 

ShroudOfFate

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,518
I tweeted it at the Nier and SE Twitter accounts and hopefully others do too. It's super gross and needs to get patched out
 
Jul 14, 2020
606
Because it's treating Kaine's nature as an intersex person as something taboo and transgressional, a prize the player should want to fight to have for themselves, and the game is implicitly rewarding the player for it.

What do you mean by "should want to fight to have for themselves"

I can't follow the syntax.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,935
United Kingdom
"You're a WHAT!?" Nier Gestalt|Replicant |OT|
Never forget. The first few pages were literally a discussion about nothing but about Kainé being intersex.


It really goes against the entire message of the game itself to have a trophy this bad be in the game.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
What do you mean by "should want to fight to have for themselves"

I can't follow the syntax.

The game is treating Kaine's genitals as something you're entitled to have access to. That the player is just being cheeky and daring in trying ten separate times to peak inside her clothes to see them.
 

Tyrant Rave

Has A Pretty Cool Jacket
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,696
I still don't get it.

Everyone is so sensitive these days. I know that "representation" is in vogue on this forum but I don't really care🤷🏻‍♂️

To be clear, I'm not against it. I just don't have any feelings about the representation of Italian plumbers...
is it really necessary to troll in here
 

Wispmetas

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,546
Yeah, this is such a big oversight oh god. I really don't believe it was intentional, but in this context it just isn't the same as the Automata one.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
There's a bit of a misconception, it's an incredibly crude and graphic short story that I don't recommend reading, here's the TLDR

It's told by a random guy who heard terrible things about a shade woman and runs into Kainé when she saves him from some shades.
And he eventually sees her as a monster when he sees the shade take over at night. It's told in a very uncomfortable and sexual way and I have no idea how it made it into Grimoire Nier.

But it happens after she gets wounded, at night, and her shadow half is out. Under the influence of Tyrant which "she can't stop" in those conditions.
And the guy just assumes she's a perverted demonic monster.

He runs away he asks himself if hating Kainé even though she shaved him doesn't make him a bad person because she's a monster, "right" ? He asks this over and over, not convincing himself.

You're not supposed to agree with him, or his interpretation of what happened.

The point is not the story per se but how it depicts the intersex nature of that character.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,355
Canada
Everyone is so sensitive these days. I know that "representation" is in vogue on this forum but I don't really care🤷🏻‍♂️

So this is about you now?
Can you try to emptahize with real life intersex people who might not want to be treated like a silly/sexualized fetish?

Apparently now everyone knows you don't bother to read up on what's going on before commenting.

The game handles the topic in a much more serious tone, and it's one of the things that game never really jokes about, instead speaking plainly about how traumatic and formative it is for the character. It seems weird as hell to say Taro did this one.

To be fair, a lot of the posts talking about the drama CD and other accompanying material aren't doing the discourse much help.
Even if Taro had "safe intentions", very little material surrounded her treat her that way at all.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Everyone know Yoko Taro is a fucking degenerate. He's just a great writer too so people look past it.

Apparently now everyone knows you don't bother to read up on what's going on before commenting.

The game handles the topic in a much more serious tone, and it's one of the things that game never really jokes about, instead speaking plainly about how traumatic and formative it is for the character. It seems weird as hell to say Taro did this achievement as well, especially considering it was just copypasted from the last game. None of what's happened here indicates it's something he would do.

Plus what we know about achievements is they can be designed by anyone, often a producer or publisher (hence 5G achievements designed for online engagement in a lot of games.)
 
Jul 14, 2020
606
User banned (permanent): Dismissing concerns around representation over multiple posts
The game is treating Kaine's genitals as something you're entitled to have access to. That the player is just being cheeky and daring in trying ten separate times to peak inside her clothes to see them.

This is clear - thank
is it really necessary to troll in here

I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,306
This is clear - thank


I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?
This is so disgustingly lacking in empathy.

I think you're probably toast, and good riddance.
 

Tyrant Rave

Has A Pretty Cool Jacket
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,696
This is clear - thank


I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?
troll, bigot-- either way, just leave bro. no you're not welcome here
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,355
Canada
This is clear - thank


I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?

Again, and cuz you didn't bother quoting me so I'll say it again. THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU, MR. YOU-PLANET.
Even just generally speaking, women don't like being perved on and this game LITERALLY rewards it with a trophy. This might mean shit to you, but I personally hate seeing my sex reduced to such belittling titlation. Kaine's situation as an intersex character only compounds a sensitive problem with a totally insensitive reward to her situation.

It's not about being TOO PC or SJW...It's about being a decent human.
 

BramStokersDracula

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 4, 2021
185
Apparently now everyone knows you don't bother to read up on what's going on before commenting.

The game handles the topic in a much more serious tone, and it's one of the things that game never really jokes about, instead speaking plainly about how traumatic and formative it is for the character. It seems weird as hell to say Taro did this achievement as well, especially considering it was just copypasted from the last game. None of what's happened here indicates it's something he would do.

Plus what we know about achievements is they can be designed by anyone, often a producer or publisher (hence 5G achievements designed for online engagement in a lot of games.)

He's an admitted pervert, he loves the cheesecake wankery in his games.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?

I mean if you don't care you could have just, y'know, not posted.

Going "I don't care" in a forum thread that's pretty much dedicated to awareness of an issue many people evidently do care about is just callous and nasty.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
To be fair, a lot of the posts talking about the drama CD and other accompanying material aren't doing the discourse much help.
Even if Taro had "safe intentions", very little material surrounded her treat her that way at all.

Yeah tbh now that I think about it (and see how many quotes I had lol)I'm starting to feel like I derailed the thread a little.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
This is clear - thank


I'm not trolling. I think it's fine that you and others care. I don't. I don't think that games NEED to be PC...just like I don't think movies or art or stand m-up comedy needs to be PC.

I'm just saying that there is a spectrum of SJW shit I care about and this doesn't really fall in to that category. I'm not the only one - I thought sharing perspectives is what a forum is about?

This has nothing to do with PC. You are making this about you by saying how much you don't care. Like, okay so fucking what? That adds nothing to the discussion. That's why it makes it about you. Why does your not caring matter? It doesn't. Of course a lot of people don't care about this. Fucking duh. We all know that. So coming in here and saying that you don't care makes this about you, like, oh man watch out, Vash doesn't care about this. As if his caring has any bearing on something that doesn't affect or exploit him.

Dude, it's a fucked up thing to make a joke exploiting someone's sexual trauma, especially in a situation where it's been made clear how much that trauma fucked up a character. Just, period. That's not PC. That's called like, human decency.

We care because there are a lot of fellow forum members here who are trans, intersex, etc. and many of them have similar trauma. It's not something to joke about. Even with coping self deprecating jokes I have never heard someone do this one, because it's fucked up. It's not funny.

You need to grow up and develop a sense of empathy for other people. No one is saying it should illegal for them to do this; they're saying it's a shitty, unfunny, lazy thing to do. Until you can do that, I'm going to make a quick guess and say you're not going to be allowed on this forum. Because while they don't really do the best job of it a lot of times, the stated goal of this forum is to allow and support marginalized gamers to discuss things.

To tell someone their trauma doesn't matter to you is so fucking immature.

If you don't care, then don't say anything. To say something is to just rub it in and be a dick. You're not funny. You're a dick. That's...all there is to it.

There's no more plain way for someone to explain this to you. If you don't get it, you're intentionally being a moron.