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Nov 30, 2017
2,750
The problem is that most of these services are very clearly trying to argue that you don't own these things. I don't pay for Disney+ thinking I now own the legal rights to everything on there for all of time, or even that they'll be there for as long as I'm subscribed.

But NFTs are being pushed as if you actually legally own a copy of "something", even though you aren't actually buying the object behind the NFT. The rights that ownership entails are so lacking with NFTs that I don't understand why people seem to think they're one and the same. Buying an NFT does not grant me the same amount of rights that "buying" an object should.

You can argue the same shit for in game items. As long as the game is playable you own that item. Or digitally purchased games. You don't own the game and all the company has to do is delist it and you don't have access to it anymore. Yet people want to drive the narrative that they should be able to re-sell their digital games as used games.
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,024
However the usecase for Gold does not give the value it has. The amount of gold that is actually used for meaningful things and jewelry is not meaningful, is only like 1/10 of the the total supply.

A big reason why gold is used as a stable commodity is because it is literally stable.
it doesn't tarnish or oxidise, it doesn't lose weight over time, it's constant. It's not so rare that it's inconvenient or meaningless to use as a trading item.

Most of my income comes from illustration and advertising, I understand what you are saying about narrative, but I think you have stretched the analogy too far when comparing it to actual usable materials and precious metals.
NFTs would be more like intangible value items like… holding copyright on a poem or something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,872
Why does food have value? Every single person can grow it themselves but it has perceived value because humans determine it's value.
Actually not many people have arrable land, and far fewer have the amount it would take to produce enough food to feed themselves. And almost no one has the right conditions and land to produce the variety of food that most people consume.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
A big reason why gold is used as a stable commodity is because it is literally stable.
it doesn't tarnish or oxidise, it doesn't lose weight over time, it's constant. It's not so rare that it's inconvenient or meaningless to use as a trading item.

Most of my income comes from illustration and advertising, I understand what you are saying about narrative, but I think you have stretched the analogy too far when comparing it to actual usable materials and precious metals.
NFTs would be more like intangible value items like… holding copyright on a poem or something.

And in today's digital world you can argue the same for blockchain technology. It's immutable, it's fungible, it has a rarity built in. everything that makes money money.
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,024
This is a thread about NFTs and I actually would like to see some.
The only one I saw was the OP's Simpson's-looking coin and I wasn't even sure if that was the NFT they own.
I don't want to be rude about it but personally I think it's ugly and I somehow find it annoying that anyone spent any money on it at all.
 
Environmental impact
OP
OP

Deleted member 1659

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,191
Why does everyone here keep bringing up the environmental impact of NFTs?

1) NFTs do not exist on the Bitcoin blockchain, they literally cannot be minted there. Bitcoin is for Bitcoin only.

2) Ethereum is the only platform used for NFTs that is mined. And it's not usuable right now for that purpose due to high fees.

3) Most NFTs are minted on platforms that are carbon neutral.
 

valuv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,604
The difference lies more in how the NFT market is quite predatory towards artists. The number of times my friends and I have been approached by people trying to get us to buy into the system while dangling a carrot in front of our faces because we "might blow up/go viral" is frustrating at best. Many artists don't want to make trading cards. They want to make the art of their choosing; and the fact that so many people are practically saying "your art has no value to me unless you put it through this scheme" or "I won't give you money outright but I'll buy it if you jump through these hoops" is a slap in the face that shows the only value they see in the work is the potential resale within their ecosystem. That is the main difference i see. I have been asked to do work that was royalty based before, and it always comes with an advancement. I'm never asked to make an investment on the product beyond the time/materials/ and my craft - never anything monetary. The trading card/NFT comparison does not work.
It kind of does work depending on the purpose of the NFT though. NFTs aren't just used with music or images etc. As an oversimplification, a game could sell NFTs for an asset that will be purchasable in the game. Whoever funds the development of that asset and gets the NFT for it then has ownership over it and can decide what to do next. They could choose to sell the asset in game and make a profit off the sales, they could sell the NFT itself to another person who might want to do that, they could sell it to someone who wants the asset to remain exclusive etc. Price of the asset which the NFT owner has control over would be dictated by the market like any other limited item etc etc.

In that regard, it kind of does hold a similar space to a card since the owner decides what to do with theirs and value will be dictated by demand.

I guess my main point I'm trying to make is that the version of NFTs being shown to everyone is the dumbest form of it, slapping a token to a picture or song or video etc. The actual practical uses of it are still in their infancy but have some potential for interesting things to be done. I'm all for dumping on the version we've been seeing in articles and all over social media but I think it's inherently shortsighted to poopoo the tech completely.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
There are over 3000 Layer-1 protocols and 20 layer-2 protocols. That are POS.

Solana, Cardano, Fantom, Matic, Binance, Atom, Immutable X, XDai, Gnosis, Tezos, etc... I could list them all if you want.

Stop talking about ETH. ETH is a damn dinosaur.

ETH has accumulated something like 1.3 billion transactions over 4 years. Solana has already done over 30 billion transactions over 2 years. Why the hell is no one complaining about Solana's carbon footprint?

Oh that's right because it doesn't fit the narrative to shut down crypto based off of carbon footprint nonsense since it's footprint is negligeble.
 
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Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,546
here
User threadbanned: trolling
This is a thread about NFTs and I actually would like to see some.
The only one I saw was the OP's Simpson's-looking coin and I wasn't even sure if that was the NFT they own.
I don't want to be rude about it but personally I think it's ugly and I somehow find it annoying that anyone spent any money on it at all.
here's a few of my rare ones

qtNQln5.jpg


5lyJylU.jpg


bmRw6lf.png


Ash9I5Y.jpg
 

loco

Member
Jan 6, 2021
5,494
Honest question here, how do I flip NFTs to make a profit like some of these ballers on YouTube?
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902
Elaborate. Human trade for the value of any given item. It's Captialism 101. There isn't some arbitrary robot that just determines a price and tells humans that that is the price they have to use. Humans perceive the value and through free market they determine the value. The value is driven by narrative mostly throught the scarcity narrative.

Why does food have value? Every single person can grow it themselves but it has perceived value because humans determine it's value.

What you're describing are commodities - things that would still hold some amount of value and do not have an arbitrary ask because they are widely available and can be substituted for one another. They have an actual, tangible use (even gold). They're not a Veblen good. An NFT (the majority of them), by design, is a one off or limited quantity good that can't be replicated. It's a unique baseball card. That's it. The ask can be whatever you want it to be. It's a giant game that is ripe for scams.

The disconnect happens for some because NFTs are not a physical object, so they can just be endlessly reproduced at no cost, like the image in the OP. You 'owning' it means absolutely nothing beyond bragging about how much you paid. The people who are genuinely into it for the art and the artists are completely drowned out by fintech bros rushing in.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
Is the NFT you own that coin drawing with a simpsons style character smirking or is that something else?

if it's that simpsons coin that says 'hosk' on it, why do you want to look at it for more than a moment let alone own it?
am I missing something basic here?
The only reason people buy NFTs is the hope that the currency they bought it with will appreciate in value so that in 5 years, the average spending power of a cryprotrader will have quadrupled so that they can easily sell their NFT for a massive profit.

NFTs aren't actually a new thing, they've been around for years as a very niche collectibles market. They've only recently gotten mainstream attention thanks to crypto millionaires pitching them to corporations and celebrities. You can look at the purchase history of some of the older NFT collections and see how people were able to buy them for relatively cheap, wait a few years, and then sell them for millions (in crypto) off the cryptocurrency boom.

Appreciation of art is the last thing on 95% of NFT traders' minds.
 

C.B.

Member
Oct 26, 2017
63
England
It kind of does work depending on the purpose of the NFT though. NFTs aren't just used with music or images etc. As an oversimplification, a game could sell NFTs for an asset that will be purchasable in the game. Whoever funds the development of that asset and gets the NFT for it then has ownership over it and can decide what to do next. They could choose to sell the asset in game and make a profit off the sales, they could sell the NFT itself to another person who might want to do that, they could sell it to someone who wants the asset to remain exclusive etc. Price of the asset which the NFT owner has control over would be dictated by the market like any other limited item etc etc.

In that regard, it kind of does hold a similar space to a card since the owner decides what to do with theirs and value will be dictated by demand.

I guess my main point I'm trying to make is that the version of NFTs being shown to everyone is the dumbest form of it, slapping a token to a picture or song or video etc. The actual practical uses of it are still in their infancy but have some potential for interesting things to be done. I'm all for dumping on the version we've been seeing in articles and all over social media but I think it's inherently shortsighted to poopoo the tech completely.

Valve basically already did this with hats and crates in TF2, and did almost exactly that concept word for word with the greenlit projects people started putting up for new shit to be featured within the game (iirc). People were already paying ridiculous amounts of money for all of that, and yet they still didn't have to pay to invest in the unlockables. If I'm understanding your system correctly it only encourages customers to spend more money towards a game through already questionable practices that prey on people's addictions lol.

There's really no point in hand holding the tech because it's in its baby steps for no reason other than "just to see where it goes". If it goes somewhere then everyone might start taking it seriously. The reason people speak out against it so aggressively is because it has yet to do that and people are being harassed to join it; simultaneously being told that it is going to free the world of poverty and then immediately being told "fine, you can stay poor if you want to be a late adopter" once you turn it down. All the while there are other economical/environmental concerns that feel hand waved away with "it'll be greener".
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
Are we allowed to make threads about sharing our rolling coal rigs?

i feel like, as a community, we should have the ability to reject topics en masse. we do it all the time with other topics.

I'm all for talking about how bad some crypto is for the environment but do the same people do the same in the Stock Market OT or other stock-based threads? A ton of corporations are terrible for the environment and are guilty of human rights abuses. If people talking about their shares in those companies that are, in many ways, worse then why should crypto be off-limits?
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
I'm all for talking about how bad some crypto is for the environment but do the same people do the same in the Stock Market OT or other stock-based threads? A ton of corporations are terrible for the environment and are guilty of human rights abuses. If people talking about their shares in those companies that are, in many ways, worse then why should crypto be off-limits?

Can't say [THING] is bad if [THING 2] is worse.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,421
The problem is that most of these services are very clearly trying to argue that you don't own these things. I don't pay for Disney+ thinking I now own the legal rights to everything on there for all of time, or even that they'll be there for as long as I'm subscribed.

But NFTs are being pushed as if you actually legally own a copy of "something", even though you aren't actually buying the object behind the NFT. The rights that ownership entails are so lacking with NFTs that I don't understand why people seem to think they're one and the same. Buying an NFT does not grant me the same amount of rights that "buying" an object should. it's all just a cover for people wanting to enable further cryptocurrency speculation on top of the rampant gambling that exists with it now, under the guise of giving artists more power.

Edit: Do you think the thread warning was about stopping any negative NFT talk? If it's open for discussion it's open for criticism.


Thats the exact same thing as microtransactions or mounts in MMOs or anything else you dont really own, but no real distinction is made. Outside of like TOS or fine print, I cannot recall a time where someone has blasted "YOU WONT OWN THIS $29.99 OUTFIT FOR YOUR CHARACTER IF WE CLOSE OUR SERVERS". Its just played up as "Buy this outfit" etc. I get your general direction here, but I think you are stretching realllly far to make this a very different exception. Its not farfetched these days at all. Its even less absurd when you look at the fact that this stuff is built on the back of crypto, which is already weird in and of itself.

And my thoughts about the thread warning were that it hoped to keep the discussion primarily about NFTs, their functions and letting the owners show off their wares; while keeping it away from the more general crypto as a whole discussions. Seems fine now though, just seemed like it was gonna veer into that direction for a bit there.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
Can't say [THING] is bad if [THING 2] is worse.

I'm completely fine with people criticizing crypto. Have at it. There are tons of legitimate arguments against it. But that doesn't mean the topic should be banned nor does it mean what most people consider the alternative is much better. If we allow discussion of S&P 500 ETFs which consist of stocks of tons of problematic companies, we should allow discussion of crypto and NFTs.
 

JaRonin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
116
Boston
I have a couple of NFTs of some artists that I follow. The biggest thing for me with any NFT project is to make sure that it has some utility. Whether that means it produces some yield like the Cyber Kongz or being a holder provides a key to a metaverse, it just has to be more than a profile picture for me.
 

valuv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,604
Valve basically already did this with hats and crates in TF2, and did almost exactly that concept word for word with the greenlit projects people started putting up for new shit to be featured within the game (iirc). People were already paying ridiculous amounts of money for all of that, and yet they still didn't have to pay to invest in the unlockables. If I'm understanding your system correctly it only encourages customers to spend more money towards a game through already questionable practices that prey on people's addictions lol.

There's really no point in hand holding the tech because it's in its baby steps for no reason other than "just to see where it goes". If it goes somewhere then everyone might start taking it seriously. The reason people speak out against it so aggressively is because it has yet to do that and people are being harassed to join it; simultaneously being told that it is going to free the world of poverty and then immediately being told "fine, you can stay poor if you want to be a late adopter" once you turn it down. All the while there are other economical/environmental concerns that feel hand waved away with "it'll be greener".
For what it's worth, I was just using that as one potential use case for where this tech could provide some value. There's a lot of avenues to be explored which could have varying degrees of value or it could all burst.

Like I said, I'm not out here saying that a token attached to a jpg is useful or interesting and I'm not saying these are the future, but I think it's something worth being explored.
 

SideMatt

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
874
This has gotta be like the loosest definition of trolling ever for warnings/bans lol. SURELY there are no NFT related personal opinions at work here.

anyways it's really weird to see such defense and hand waving of something that is so clearly a scheme with such a detrimental effect on the environment, but sunken cost fallacy is a hell of a drug
 

DarkLegion

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,679
I want to use the FTM ecosystem for NFT's.
As I understand it, it's all Proof of Stake which uses such a small amount of energy

Proof of Work is that super high energy consumption network. You guys should check out the difference. Most NFT's are proof of stake.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,095
Why does everyone here keep bringing up the environmental impact of NFTs?

1) NFTs do not exist on the Bitcoin blockchain, they literally cannot be minted there. Bitcoin is for Bitcoin only.

2) Ethereum is the only platform used for NFTs that is mined. And it's not usuable right now for that purpose due to high fees.

3) Most NFTs are minted on platforms that are carbon neutral.

Curiously, do you have some more information on this? I'd like to know more about these platforms to educate myself a bit further.

I can't say I collect NFTs, but viewing them as digital "trading cards" in a sense is interesting, and does make me wonder what potential future applications the technology will have.
 
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Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
is there a version of this that just uses regular monies but keeps all the database tracking stuff without needing to have cryptocoins
 

FrsDvl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,118
I have a Weezer NFT that they were giving away. No clue what to do with it whatsoever..
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,406
Leeds, UK
If you want to invest in art, support artists by commissioning them and funding projects not futzing around with artificial scarcity and speculative grift currencies that upend the planet. The concept of electronic keys for goods exists right now, and its how you buy anything online just with, yknow, normal Earth money (which I can assure you sane artists prefer and feed themselves with!).

Maybe there was a hot minute where the only NFT's in existence were competent art but thats long since past and its just unrelenting cringe. I get why OP feels like they have 'an opportunity here', but thats just not really the case at all.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1659

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,191
Curiously, do you have some more information on this? I'd like to know more about these platforms to educate myself a bit further.

I can't say I collect NFTs, but viewing them as digital "trading cards" in a sense is interesting, and does make me wonder what potential future applications the technology will have.

There primarily two ways in which blockchains mint new coins.

1) Proof of Work - This is what most of Resetera thinks drives crypto. Any new asset - whether it be a coin or an NFT, minted on a PoW chain requires that GPUs or special computers make calculations to mint and to record transactions. Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, Ethereum and many others fall into this category.

2) Proof of Stake - New assets are minted by stake holders holding coins in their wallet. Cardano, Solana, Fantom, Polkadot and many others operate on proof of stake.

The only PoW chain that supports NFTs is Ethereum. The rest are in the latter category.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,095
There primarily two ways in which blockchains mint new coins.

1) Proof of Work - This is what most of Resetera thinks drives crypto. Any new asset - whether it be a coin or an NFT, minted on a PoW chain requires that GPUs or special computers make calculations to mint and to record transactions. Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, Ethereum and many others fall into this category.

2) Proof of Stake - New assets are minted by stake holders holding coins in their wallet. Cardano, Solana, Fantom, Polkadot and many others operate on proof of stake.

The only PoW chain that supports NFTs is Ethereum. The rest are in the latter category.

Interesting. I was kind of curious if this was environmental concerns had been worked out, but it sounds like they have.

Is there any drawbacks to Proof of Stake? It sounds like it's less secure glancing at at a Google search.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Okay? Doesn't make it not bullshit. Landowners and developers also drive the "perceived value" of housing up, doesn't make it okay or something we should celebrate.

HUH? Point out where I said it was ok.

If we put perceived value on food and water the basic nessecities of life, we will put value on digital bits. I didn't say anything about it being ok.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
is there a version of this that just uses regular monies but keeps all the database tracking stuff without needing to have cryptocoins

the whole point of crypto is decentralization. You say you own a digital game yet at the flick of a switch a centralized figure can shut down your ownership

Decentralization makes it very very difficult as it would need every single person in the world running a node or mining to shut down their miner/node off.

ETH has over 200,000 nodes running around the world. Which is currently the most decentralized crypto other than Bitcoin.

Cardano has over 2000 nodes.

Solana has over 1000 nodes.

Binance smart chain has only 21 nodes
 

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,909
HUH? Point out where I said it was ok.

If we put perceived value on food and water the basic nessecities of life, we will put value on digital bits. I didn't say anything about it being ok.
You sure are arguing like it is. Comparing bits, of which there are trillions upon trillions in the world and are not necessary to live, to fucking food and water is not the killer argument you think it is. You keep using the word "perceived" and it's doing a lot of heavy lifting to obscure the amount of work required to produce different items.
 

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,909
User threadbanned: hostility over series of posts
Humans are the stupidest species on this planet The sooner you realize that the sooner you can make money.

This website lives in a giant naive dream that somehow the human race will become altruists lol
What an incredibly shitty, small minded, and selfish view to take. But unsurprising given your arguments.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
What an incredibly shitty and selfish view to take. But unsurprising given your arguments.

How is it any more selfish that people on this website complain that they can't buy a Power hungry video card just so they can game but at the same time complain about the carbon footprint of ETH lol.

Everyone is selfish. I just prefer to make money than than play video games with my selfishness
 

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,909
How is it any more selfish that people on this website complain that they can't buy a Power hungry video card just so they can game but at the same time complain about the carbon footprint of ETH lol
If you fail to see how "humans are stupid and you should try to make a buck off that stupidity, the world be damned" is more selfish than "I'd like to buy this entertainment product; it uses a bit more energy than a normal computer but it'll provide me entertainment value" then your brain is broken. Ethereum has for the entirety of its existence used PoW, which is an order of magnitude more wasteful than using a high end graphics card to play a video game at 50% utilization for 2 hours a day.

I don't know why I bother responding. It's clear that you're both A) 100% bought into the bullshit that it's somehow not immoral to partake in crypto as it currently exists and B) a gigantic fucking asshole who equates try to entertain oneself with exploiting people because you perceive them to be stupid and thus deserving of exploitation. Fuck off.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
How is it any more selfish that people on this website complain that they can't buy a Power hungry video card just so they can game but at the same time complain about the carbon footprint of ETH lol.

Everyone is selfish. I just prefer to make money than than play video games with my selfishness

Video games are entertainment pursuits and those graphics cards are only pumping out power when actually gaming, not cynical demonstrations of wealth that are constantly number crunching to help enforce other's wealth.
 
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