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nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I get that Sony is very much in the lead not just this gen, but going into the next in terms of mindshare, brand recognition and overall hype comparative to Microsoft, that said, in this industry things can change very quickly (PS2 to PS3, Wii to Wii U, 360 to One), and complacency can be dangerous.

I wasn't even planning to buy the Xbox Series X a year or so ago (which would have been the first time in history I would not have bought a Microsoft console), but what changed my mind?

Game Pass coupled with the high performance of the console.

Because here's the thing, even if I may have been less than impressed with Microsoft's exclusives this gen (in other words, extremely disappointed), the value proposition of Game Pass is simply undeniable, and makes passing up on the new system extremely difficult.

I have close to 2 years worth of Game Pass Ultimate stacked up, so why wouldn't I buy a Series X? Whatever the system costs me, will be offset by the savings I'll make in not having to buy any of the first partly exclusives, which to me will likely be equivalent to hundreds of dollars in savings. This is a saving I simply won't have with the PS5. And something to consider when weighing up the costs of both next-gen systems.

This value proposition difference is something that Sony ought to be wary of, beyond the typical considerations going in to a new generation.


Now I'm not saying Sony will be doomed if their system comes in at the same cost, or even more expensive than the Series X, just that it could make for a much tougher situation for them than they've enjoyed this gen, especially if Game Pass continues to grow in mindshare, install base and prominence, and it is too cost inefficient for Sony (loss of first party exclusives sales) to match them any time soon.

In any case, I'm predicting I might get some of the arguments and rebuttals below, so I thought I'd answer them first.

  • Xbox's exclusives have been weak this gen, and most consumers will be willing to pay the extra for Sony first party next-gen.
Whilst this may be true based on some of the numbers, especially this gen, that doesn't mean this situation will exactly replicate itself next-gen. Microsoft has not only been making big investments with studios and acquisitions, but they've shown they're willing give certain franchises more time in the oven too (eg Halo Infinite).

I think next-gen there's a good chance Microsoft could change its fortunes on the first party side of things, and it may be foolish of Sony to underestimate them here.

  • Game Pass exists now and isn't making any difference in the console, sales or revenue race vs PlayStation.
This may also be partly true, but once again, this situation may not replicate itself next gen. In fact I'm confident many consumers will see next gen as a clean slate of sorts, and may be willing to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt because of the value proposition offered by Game Pass.

  • If things start changing away from Sony's favour, Sony can respond by matching Game Pass with Sony's own version of the service.
Again, true, but Microsoft's Game Pass sub numbers have been grown and curated over several years with countless offers and incentives, it may take Sony a bit of time to match the numbers GP has by the time they might need to react to it, and by that point Microsoft may already have a level of Game Pass install base buying power that Sony won't have with their own version (important for third party multiplatform title inclusions). And if next-gen Microsoft first party are able to put out far better quality exclusives, it'll be harder for Sony to react as well as they might have otherwise been able to.

  • Xbox first party next-gen games being cross-gen for the first year or two, diminishes the need for people to jump to the next-gen Xbox right away.
No arguments for me on this point, but what about post cross-gen period? All the same arguments apply.


So to clarify, I'm not saying Sony will be doomed if their system comes in at the same cost, or even more expensive than the Xbox Series X, in fact I fully expect them to dominate next gen too (largely off the back of their strong first party efforts and global desirability).

That said, I do think that if the Xbox Series X comes in at the same price or cheaper than the PS5, coupled with the value proposition of Game Pass, this could pose more problematic for Sony next-gen, comparative to the ease at which they've had things this gen (eg they might not enjoy a similar dominance in terms of market share split in the console space), and it's something they ought to be wary of going forward, lest getting too complacent.
 
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Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
If they're both 500 it sure doesn't help Sony. Lockheart is supposed to exist.

Sony has a large attached community with a library of digital purchases. You could argue Microsoft need to be the undercutters.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,275
Microsoft will have the cheapest next gen console anyway so I don't think it matters that much unless the PS5 is more expensive than the XSX which I just don't see happening.
 

Biosnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,253
There's pretty much no chance of PS5 undercutting XSX. MS not letting that happen again.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,812
Lockhart makes undercutting Microsoft practically impossible. The best Sony can do is make a strong case for the console's value. That said, at a possible price of $499 or above they will have a hard time doing so in this economic climate.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Microsoft have both the entry level and the premium level on lockdown with Series S and Series X respectively.

As far as price and performance goes, Sony is going to be caught in No Man's Land.
 

Sense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,551
If Sony bites the bullet and comes in at $399, they will just lock up this gen early and ms will struggle to eat away at the ps install base. They will most likely dominate at 499 as well but will take some time for the install base to grow and give ms a chance to attract some gamers as their new first party studios start releasing games regularly on gamepass
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
So to clarify, I'm not saying Sony will be doomed if their system comes in at the same cost, or even more expensive than the Xbox Series X, in fact I fully expect them to dominate next gen too (largely off the back of their strong first party efforts and global desirability). That said, I do think that if the Xbox Series X comes in at the same price or cheaper than the PS5, coupled with the value proposition of Game Pass, this could pose more problematic for Sony next-gen, comparative to the ease at which they've had things this gen, and it's something they ought to be wary of going forward, lest getting too complacent.
I don't think it will, Microsoft has lots to get rights and I'm not convinced Gamepass will be enough to bridge the gap especially comparing first party games plus I definitely don't think lockhart will push anything meaningful in terms of sales.

Microsoft have both the entry level and the premium level on lockdown with Series S and Series X respectively.

As far as price and performance goes, Sony is going to be caught in No Man's Land.
It won't matter though especially if performance is as close as it seems like it will be.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
It's not gonna happen. Sony is going to need to lose at least a flat 100 or more on every console to actually undercut well
 

KeyboardThug

Member
Oct 27, 2017
286
I am getting both PS5 and XSX but Game Pass is never leaving my Xbox if they keep doing what they are doing. PS5 will be for exclusives. I think both will be 500 USD.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
People on twitter are already preparing for a expensive PS5 price, their solution? Asking their girlfriends to buy it for them.
 

INPAQ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
88
Will history repeat itself, similar to the PS3 $599 vs X-Box 360 $299 launch debacle ?
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
PlayStation is an absolute monster of a brand with the 18-35 demo. I truly believe Sony could charge $500 for PS5 with MS charging $400 for Series X and PS5 would still sell twice as many units as Series X over a generation.

This is the major reason you hear Phil talking about how they're not competing with Sony anymore on boxes sold.
 
OP
OP
nib95

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Regarding Lockhart, or the Series S, I think it all depends on pricing. There is always a chance Lockhart ends up making the PS5 (and/or XSX) look like better value proposition, which I covered in a post several months back.

Except it might be very relevant, because it's all relative. Imagine the following scenarios.

Lockhart, 4 Tflops - $299
PS5, 10.28 Tflops - $399
XSX, 12.15 Tflops - $499

PS5 would get you 157% more performance for $100, whilst the XSX would get you 18% extra for $100. Suddenly the PS5 is looking like a steal, and Lockhart a bit of a dud. The XSX's performance advantage is also looking like a pretty bad deal.

Potentially more realistic pricing.

Lockhart, 4 Tflops - $349
PS5, 10.28 Tflops - $449
XSX, 12.15 Tflops - $499

PS5 would get you 157% more performance for $100, whilst the XSX would get you 18% extra for $49. The PS5 is still looking like a steal, and Lockhart still a bit of a dud. XSX's performance advantage is looking like better value proposition.

And then the worst case for Sony, but that is still a possibility.

Lockhart, 4 Tflops - $349
PS5, 10.28 Tflops - $499
XSX, 12.15 Tflops - $499

PS5 would get you 157% more performance for $149, whilst the XSX would get you 18% extra for no added cost. Lockhart is looking like a better proposition now, but $149 extra for so much more performance from the other two still seems worthile, the XSX especially. Notably if buyers expect to get a 4K screen to replace their 1080p one, any time in the next several years.


If Lockhart comes in at $299, something I hadn't even considered back then, then yes, things start looking great for Microsoft again, depending on how much cheaper Lockhart is from the PS5 and XSX.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,630
Microsoft will match whatever price the ps5 is with the X. They will cost the same, $500.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,489
Austin
Same price will not help Sony but it definitely won't hurt either, they've never been in a stronger position in the console space ever. They have a stronger foothold then even the ps2, could they somehow fuck it up yes but in general even if they did fuck it up really badly they'd still sell 70 million units easy, they can't lose.

The Xbox one is around 60 million units and they had one of the worst console launches of all time. Sony can easily survive any price. Hell the PS3 sold 80 something million and was a disaster launch.

Sony will not lose more money then necessary just to compete with a trillion dollar company. They can price higher and still more then likely "win". Microsoft can nearly afford anything.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way
I guess the old two jobs argument falls flat when millions can't even find one job right now. Uncertain times for sure, and Game Pass is a long play for MS that'll be extremely attractive for those short on cash (and those with plenty of cash too).

Lockhart + Game Pass is the ultimate gaming present for the kids, from a parent's perspective. They're constantly fed (literally) new games so they'll be happy and entertained, and at very little ongoing cost to the parent. Better than when my parents had to put up with me begging to spend £50 on the latest Megadrive game. Game Pass would have been the dream of dreams for me as a kid!
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,509
Indonesia
Gamepass is not available in my country (and many other "non important" countries), and Sony officially sells Playstation here, so that's that :P

As long as Sony doesn't do another 599 they'll be fine, world wide wise I think.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,430
Saying 'given the economy, whoever charges less will win' is one way of looking at it but I wonder if actually it will be more like the difference between 400 and 600 is way less than usual because anyone surviving well enough to spend 4 is ok to spend 6 and everyone else is not looking to buy consoles this year.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,764
Those who think the report about Sony struggling to keep it under $450 means it will be $450-$500 assumes that:
  • Sony has no success reducing costs
  • That the $450 estimate takes into account, which we don't know, Sony's discount on UHD BR drives or their SSD tech since it appears to be very custom
  • Forgets that The margin for Sony on any third party game sold at launch will be 30%, or $18 per copy. In addition to Services like Plus and Now, it's reasonable that a $430-$440 BOM wouldn't be that rough for them at $399.99
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,355
I just don't see why suddenly MS would be willing to eat the costs and somehow undercut PS5s price with series X. They didn't do that with base XBO or Xbox One X. Why suddenly now? Not to mention for Sony hw sales are more important than for MS that has gone almost full in with platform agnostic gaming so if anything Sony is more willing to undercut MS with console prices.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
I think price is less of an issue for Xbox since they have the all access program they'll be pushing hard and all signs point to Lockhart being a thing.

But I don't think price is much of an issue for Sony either. The console will sell regardless as long as the games are there.

So honestly I don't think price is a huge consideration unless one really fucks up with it.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
I think one of the most interesting parts of this next-gen is the value proposition for both consoles. MS are sure as hell going to push GPU for Series X and, outside of some massive exclusives, I don't see what Sony has to counter that as an added value part of next-gen.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
MS will not allow Sony to have a mic drop moment in terms of pricing.

Sony's primary strength is their brand and 1st party offerings. Nothing short of introducing PS Gamepass will counter the value proposition that MS brings with the XSX Gamepass combo. It this respect, MS has more options to counter any potential cost variance. They could offer 6 months of Gamepass free with XSX if they felt pressured.
 

Otheradam

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,226
I think they will both launch for 499. There is no way 599 will work in this climate. Sure the diehards who will buy day 1 will do so no matter the price but that's a small number of people in the grand scheme.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
I don't think the far bigger global brand has to undercut the much less popular one to be successful.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Agreed. I think the PS5 would be in a really rough position at a higher price point than XSX, especially given the lower power and the value of GamePass.
 

Mr_Blue_Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
The new xbox would have to be significantly lower than the ps5, like $150+ for me to even consider dumping my entire library of physical/digital games to switch over. More than just cost/performance/gamepass, that's going to be the main factor in what new console I go with.
 

Fabs

Member
Aug 22, 2019
1,808
I don't get the ecosystem argument. They same people argue they don't want to play old games and Cross gen will hold back series X games. the big modern third party games like Fortnite Minecraft and cod offer cross progression.
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
I can see xbox cutting pricing especially seeing how they pushed their event back. Still dont want their console tho. I'll get a pc for that if i want to play multiplatform.
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,859
I am getting both PS5 and XSX but Game Pass is never leaving my Xbox if they keep doing what they are doing. PS5 will be for exclusives. I think both will be 500 USD.

Pretty much, this. 1 or 2 big 1st party games a year from don't won't make a subscription worth it from Sony. I like that MS have a plan for a mixture of big and smaller releases. I'd need Sony to release at least 6-8 1st party games per year on a sub for it to be worth it for me. So is get the box, but just for exclusives and maybe VR 2.
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,859
Pretty much, this. 1 or 2 big 1st party games a year from Sony won't make a subscription worth it. I like that MS have a plan for a mixture of big and smaller releases. I'd need Sony to release at least 6-8 1st party games per year on a sub for it to be worth it for me. So is get the box, but just for exclusives and maybe VR 2.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
PlayStation is an absolute monster of a brand with the 18-35 demo. I truly believe Sony could charge $500 for PS5 with MS charging $400 for Series X and PS5 would still sell twice as many units as Series X over a generation.

This is the major reason you hear Phil talking about how they're not competing with Sony anymore on boxes sold.

No.

The major reason why Phil says what he says is because they can make more money on services than hardware.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,360
I just don't see why suddenly MS would be willing to eat the costs and somehow undercut PS5s price with series X. They didn't do that with base XBO or Xbox One X. Why suddenly now? Not to mention for Sony hw sales are more important than for MS that has gone almost full in with platform agnostic gaming so if anything Sony is more willing to undercut MS with console prices.

Because Phil Spencer is directly under the CEO now and MS is investing the most in Xbox since the original console.

While I don't think MS is exactly giving Xbox the fabled "Warchest," Xbox has support now they just didn't have when the Xbox One launched.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Those who think the report about Sony struggling to keep it under $450 means it will be $450-$500 assumes that:
  • Sony has no success reducing costs
  • That the $450 estimate takes into account, which we don't know, Sony's discount on UHD BR drives or their SSD tech since it appears to be very custom
  • Forgets that The margin for Sony on any third party game sold at launch will be 30%, or $18 per copy. In addition to Services like Plus and Now, it's reasonable that a $430-$440 BOM wouldn't be that rough for them at $399.99

BOM is just the cost of manufacturing the individual parts of physical console as standalone units; it is just a proportion of the total cost.

If you have a BOM of $450; the real cost to Sony (after accounting for actual factory production of the console & associated labour costs, the packaging, the shipping, the retailer cut and the marketing costs), is more realistically going to be around $600-650 per console sold. Good luck selling that for $399.99; they would literally lose billions!

I don't get the ecosystem argument. They same people argue they don't want to play old games and Cross gen will hold back series X games. the big modern third party games like Fortnite Minecraft and cod offer cross progression.

This. This is exactly why Sony fought tooth and nail to try to stop this from happening.
 
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Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
As hard as people think it will be for Sony, Microsoft are in a worse position when you think about it. They will have to balance the price of 2 next gen consoles and as such have less wiggle room. Either they lose money on series x but make it on Lockhart or the other way round. No way they will lose on both. Because of that fact, the Lockhart will either be seen as too cheap (and thus weak) or the series x too expensive, if Sony can price accordingly.

As such, Sony should take the hit on the PS5 and make sure it places itself as best it can. For them, an ideal position would be:

Lockhart $299
PS5 $399
Series X $499

This would be costly for sony at first but they would more than make up for it long term by maintaining their market position and when you consider the growth in digital purchases and subscriptions, they would make that money back quicker than they did for ps4.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
I think there's a higher chance of the SX price cutting the PS5 than the other way around.

I fully expect both to be 500 though.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
As hard as people think it will be for Sony, Microsoft are in a worse position when you think about it. They will have to balance the price of 2 next gen consoles and as such have less wiggle room. Either they lose money on series x but make it on Lockhart or the other way round. No way they will lose on both. Because of that fact, the Lockhart will either be seen as too cheap (and thus weak) or the series x too expensive, if Sony can price accordingly.

As such, Sony should take the hit on the PS5 and make sure it places itself as best it can. For them, an ideal position would be:

Lockhart $299
PS5 $399
Series X $499

This would be costly for sony at first but they would more than make up for it long term by maintaining their market position and when you consider the growth in digital purchases and subscriptions, they would make that money back quicker than they did for ps4.
I think in this scenario MS either matches the PS5, or they don't release lockhart.

There's very little chance the PS5 is going to be 399 though. That's a massive loss per console.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
No.

The major reason why Phil says what he says is because they can make more money on services than hardware.
Yes if Microsoft had sales like they did with the 360, we would be hearing them yell from the rooftops on how good it's doing. That's the only reason we don't. They will absolutely talk more about hardware sales if they are huge next gen.