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Which team are you on?

  • Double Team (1997)

  • Team Walnut

  • The A-Team

  • Team "No One Can Stop Mr. Domino"

  • Sports Team

  • "I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel."

  • Team Margarita


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Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
The resolution alone doesn't define how much a game, especially a 3D game, is weighting on a GPU, that choice is made upstream by devs when they decide how they will fill in their scenes, and on the baseline chosen to maintain it. Where I am skeptic is with the idea that it would have zero consequences on gamedesign.

Okay, thank you.

I'm not trying to argue against this, but rather expand my knowledge, but my understanding was that there was a fairly clear link between resolution and necessary GPU power in that to power twice the pixels you need twice the power.

Is that entirely incorrect or is it more that there are other considerations on top of that? For instance, throwing a load of particles around on screen (or whatever graphical effect), might require X amount of GPU power regardless of what the resolution you output is, there would then be an additional cost that scales with the resolution that you then display it at?
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
What's hilarious is wasn't there a tweet that mentioned AMD switching up the ID formula some months ago? Seems many have just overlooked that post.

It just adds to the puzzle pieces IMO.

Yeah, this is what I was talking about. Can't find the post now...damn I wished I used bookmarks more, lol.

It wasn't ignored and it came from the same person(unless that was apisak)as this time. The discussion about it didn't last long because the people that would usually explain that sort of stuff to us were the ones that brought the findings forward and were surprised themselves. It was sort of a dead end topic.
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,548
It'll be between $449 and $549 for both.
Most people don't think it will be over $500 in either case. Anything higher is not market proven.

PS4 Pro was different in that the retail structure didn't need to change. It wasn't all that different than deploying a slim variant, for example. None of the games or accessories changed.
I just don't see this happening. It would be a very expensive console.

Sony has been talking about quick transition to PS5 which points to a lower, probably $399 price point imo. Nothing they have said points to being most powerful console or more powerful than XseX, which also will be quite expensive, I think $499 or even $549.

Either you build a powerful and expensive console or a less powerful and medium priced console. So far I see Sony doing the latter and MS doing former with XseX.

This is just pure speculation on my part so I could be totally wrong.
I don't think many people thought this through.
Yeah I can't see it either console crossing $500. $550 plus a year of gamepass ultimate/PS+&PSNoW at anything above $500 to weaken the sting.
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
Making a final point and then announcing "we'll leave it at that" and leaving no room for any sort of rebuttal is just bad form.



How are those mutually exclusive? They want to sell games to existing console owners. They also want to sell consoles on the strength of those games. Why are you taking issue with this, or presenting it as some sort of spin or dodge? They're practically non-statements.

I swear I feel like I'm having a stroke here sometimes. Those are both not only perfectly compatible statements, they're both obviously true. Selling consoles to play games and then selling more games to owners of those consoles is basically the entire console business.

We can debate the impact of revealing the PS5 early on these game sales, sure. But I can't for the life of me understand why you're pulling out "Oh, so now you say Sony wants their big releases to sell systems?" as if it's some sort of gotcha or dunk.



Both can be true. I'm basically just saying "Sony wants to sell their current products." Which, like, yeah.

Do you think that Sony isn't going to have a special PS4 bundle for TLOU2? Okay, that's Sony using TLOU2 to move systems. For a very obvious example.
I understand what you are saying, but I also harken back to Sony saying that they wanted to facilitate a fast transition from current to next-gen: Hence, focus on BC with PS4. I think that's kind've at odds with using the same amount of effort to try and sell both consoles.
 

rokkerkory

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
14,128
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF.

MS must be the most powerful to change their narrative and 3rd placing this gen.

Both will rock.
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF.

MS must be the most powerful to change their narrative and 3rd placing this gen.

Both will rock.
Sony exec said last year that the PS5 would be a "niche machine aimed at serious gamers." That doesn't sound like they were targeting a 9.2 TF box that would sell for $399.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF...Both will rock.
A lot of xbox fans have been saying this since github came out.
It's disingenuous.

pls don't ban, just stating the obvious

Sony exec said last year that the PS5 would be a "niche machine aimed at serious gamers." That doesn't sound like they were targeting a 9.2 TF box that would sell for $399.
I think someone explained the context of that message and that it doesn't mean what you're suggesting it means.
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
Sony exec said last year that the PS5 would be a "niche machine aimed at serious gamers." That doesn't sound like they were targeting a 9.2 TF box that would sell for $399.

No body wants their product to be niche are you crazy? Ofcourse they want it to be as mainstream as possible.

probably lip service or something, but u cant take that at face value, thats insane.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
One issue with an argument against a $399 price point is that, at least in the US, wages has stagnated while inflation continues to occur. The average citizens buying power has essentially not increased since 2013. And being market leader means you either price for the mass market adoption or you offer Tiered pricing options.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF.

MS must be the most powerful to change their narrative and 3rd placing this gen.

Both will rock.
These consoles are supposed to last 7-8 years.

What doesn't make sense is purposefully aiming lower when you have higher options available that will go further along.

Yeah, Sony doesn't need to, but they will aim for as good as possible regardless.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,674
Interesting:


"Although the cause is unknown, Navi 21 has the same DEV_ID as N10 in some drivers (7310)."

Hmm...intentional obfuscation? :)

4 18 CU SEs? (Total 72 active CUs)

If you only use 2 of those SEs in BC mode.... You'd be using 36 CUs.

That would be ridiculous though, unless they were clocking conservatively but needing an exotic cooling solution for cooling such a big APU in a relatively small console form factor.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,115
DF did the best job they could (and I really like Richard's voice and mannerisms!) but obviously they could only test current gen games.
Ideally, a game developed from the ground up for a 12TF console is allowed to take advantage of the GPU in ways beyond resolution and frame rate; stuff that's not always scalable, or at least not without some significant reworking.

What about PC though? Will MGS games have minimum requirements on par with Lockhart, including SSD ? Otherwise I can see PC ports impacting game design even harder than Lockhart.
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,548
A lot of xbox fans have been saying this since github came out.
It's disingenuous.

pls don't ban, just stating the obvious


I think someone explained the context of that message and that it doesn't mean what you're suggesting it means.
How is it disingenuous? PS is in the driver seat and unless they crater all good will they will stay there. They have a broader worldwide appeal and a larger fan base. Next gen is theirs to lose. It is what it is not a shot at PS.
 

aweedswee

Member
Jan 21, 2020
64
Greece
If microsoft release Xbox series x and the supposedly lockhart does this mean that mid gen upgrade for xbox won't occur? Because I can't think how they will justify a third SKU 3 or 4 years into the gen. And what about sony? Will they be forced to have again a mid gen refresh to keep up with the higher tier xbox mid gen?
 

asd202

Enlightened
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,552
If microsoft release Xbox series x and the supposedly lockhart does this mean that mid gen upgrade for xbox won't occur? Because I can't think how they will justify a third SKU 3 or 4 years into the gen. And what about sony? Will they be forced to have again a mid gen refresh to keep up with the higher tier xbox mid gen?

There will be more Xbox consoles for sure the Series is already telling. I imagine Sony will be forced to make to make a PS5 Pro if MS already plans to do it this early.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,052
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF.

MS must be the most powerful to change their narrative and 3rd placing this gen.

Both will rock.

that DF video reassures me actually. Xsx going native 4K, ps5 could do 1800p reconstructed with everything else on par. And be barely noticeable except to a few.
 

tapedeck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,977
I think for Lockhart to justify its existence it needs to be really cheap..like $249 or less. I also think XSX will be $499 so at that price the $249 makes sense as a larger price gap to very clearly separate them.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
4 18 CU SEs? (Total 72 active CUs)

If you only use 2 of those SEs in BC mode.... You'd be using 36 CUs.

That would be ridiculous though, unless they were clocking conservatively but needing an exotic cooling solution for cooling such a big APU in a relatively small console form factor.
Narrator:

72 CUs?
2 pools of 36 CU?
The ability to turn off multiple SE and retain BC?
Could this be the ultimate Mark Cerny PS5 butterfly GPU?
ERA SONY ant-GitHub theorists say yes.

You are good my friend
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
One issue with an argument against a $399 price point is that, at least in the US, wages has stagnated while inflation continues to occur. The average citizens buying power has essentially not increased since 2013. And being market leader means you either price for the mass market adoption or you offer Tiered pricing options.
Wages have been pretty stagnant in the US since the 70s, but here's the counter-argument: hardcore gamers are the only ones buying a PS5 at launch and they're willing to pay an extra $100 or even $200 to buy a top of the line console.
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,548
These consoles are supposed to last 7-8 years.

What doesn't make sense is purposefully aiming lower when you have higher options available that will go further along.

Yeah, Sony doesn't need to, but they will aim for as good as possible regardless.
Of course they will aim for the best specs possible. They are also aiming for a price point. We just don't know what they chose since they are being silent outside of non-committal comments. Could they be more powerful? Yes. What does that mean? A more expensive console. Could it be weaker? Yes, and that means a cheaper console. We simply don't know what they are doing. We know roughly what Xbox is doing so until we hear from Sony it's going to be lots of guess work. Klee could well be right but we simply don't know. They could both be 12 TF and run the same price. It really depends on which "leaks" you believe.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
Are they? MS suggest otherwise.

They have to remain viable for that long in order to get a sufficient installed base in place to justify software development costs and make the $300-500 outlay reasonable for mass market adopters. It doesn't mean there can't be mid-gen models, but a new console sold this year that is abandoned by developers in three or four years would be a disaster.
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
Of course they will aim for the best specs possible. They are also aiming for a price point. We just don't know what they chose since they are being silent outside of non-committal comments. Could they be more powerful? Yes. What does that mean? A more expensive console. Could it be weaker? Yes, and that means a cheaper console. We simply don't know what they are doing. We know roughly what Xbox is doing so until we hear from Sony it's going to be lots of guess work. Klee could well be right but we simply don't know. They could both be 12 TF and run the same price. It really depends on which "leaks" you believe.
Given the tech in these machines, $499 is more likely. Given that, yes, I feel both consoles will be on par. This has been repeated over and over by several insiders as well.
 

Melchiah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,190
Helsinki, Finland
The hate and vitriol that 5% spat at them far outweighs any hugs and praise from the other 95%.

Speaking of which, why weren't they perma-banned? After all, that would have improved the atmosphere and decreased platform warring here considerably. That's why I don't like to post much here anymore.

People get few days bans, even several times, and eventually return to the same behavior that got them banned.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,382
72 CU RDNA2 GPU is going to be something you see this year for like 799 bucks, that would be faster than 2080 Ti by a bit. That isn't getting in a SOC.
Still hard to believe PS5 might be 36 CU though, im not sure on that github stuff at all.
 

Hawk269

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,043
That quote is somewhat accurate at that time. When the PS4 reveal was held, we knew about it far ahead of that conference. Just like we knew about 2 months before the "surprise" Saturn launch. Back then, these presentations were somewhat more for media that retail, while some retailers were present. Purchasing decisions are made well ahead of launch, but today the market is so much different than when it was then. For the division I worked in which was the gaming part, we had what is called the open to buy and basically had a set budget. We could free up buying funds when we were told something new was coming by cutting back on other things. Everything was almost budgeted when it came down to it, but with some flexibility.

Shawn's quote was somewhat accurate at the time. It has been a good 4 years now that I have been out of the loop and things have changed. But back during the PS4 reveal, we knew about it well ahead of that. We did not know final pricing of the unit at the time, we did have however a close ballpark of the cost to us (Basically what we paid for the units) which gave us an approximation of what the retail price may be, but nothing was certain until we were told by Sony. Once we were told, we would know what the margins would be for the consoles. Anyone in retail can tell you that retailers don't make much at all on console sales...all the profit/margin is in accessories and software. The average was about 5% or so for margin on a console. Sometimes it was slightly lower, sometimes slightly higher, but mainly averaging about 5% whereas software was anywhere from 30-40% based on the title. That is why back in the day you say a lot more sales/offers etc. on software because the margins were so much better.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
I think for Lockhart to justify its existence it needs to be really cheap..like $249 or less. I also think XSX will be $499 so at that price the $249 makes sense as a larger price gap to very clearly separate them.
I think if it's around 300 then it becomes really tempting when bundled with the Gamepass Ultimate for a monthly contract. Probably 20 a month contract or less. I'm going PS5 but I would absolutely get an Xbox as well if I can get it for only £20 a month let's say. That would be a really compelling second console option for me.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Okay, thank you.

I'm not trying to argue against this, but rather expand my knowledge, but my understanding was that there was a fairly clear link between resolution and necessary GPU power in that to power twice the pixels you need twice the power.
I am like you, interrogative, and the question could be asked between other platforms. I have no doubt about Lockhart running Xbox Series-based games flawlessly, the problem isn't there for me. More like, with exaggeration, having a 2080Ti but only RetroArch to run with, compared to a 2070 capable of launching any PC games.

When you say "twice the power needed", it's not contradictory with what I said about resolution. To put in another way : when Mark Cerny said that ± 8TF would be needed to push PS4 games to a native 4K, but the One X achieved that with 6TF - did he lied or was he wrong ? Nope, it's because the One X bump games build for a 1.3x TF baseline and the PS4 for 1.8x.

So my question is, what does it imply for devs to have a 4TF baseline rather than 9.2/12, that's all. And I am still convinced that it means restrictions that aren't solved by a linear 2D scaling (resolution) or post-process effects (shadows etc.) but could affect the core design of a game (heights of reliefs, animation complexity, etc.).

For me Lockhart is the answer to three problems for Microsoft :

1) as a brand, avoiding to let the Serie X alone against the worldwide PS5 marketing bulldozer
2) as a publisher, avoiding to burn bridges with their 1060/SATA3/Windows and One/One X/Gamepass customers
3) as a manufacturer, avoiding to offer only a premium product to the current Xbox customers

You can see how the point 2. is also interesting for publishers like EA or Ubisoft, and all those having to harvest to largest possible range of customers with the same game port. And I am not asking all this against Lockhart, but more against the argument "nothing that scaling couldn't solve". But I cannot be affirmative like if I was in gamedev because I am not, just arguing with the few I know about
 
Last edited:

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
giphy.gif
 

褲蓋Calo

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 1, 2020
781
Shenzhen, China
Sony exec said last year that the PS5 would be a "niche machine aimed at serious gamers." That doesn't sound like they were targeting a 9.2 TF box that would sell for $399.
At this point I think Sony should stop using cryptic wordings like "niche machine" or "secret sauce(whatever the original words are)" and be more open and transparent with their fans. We need to know more, at least a reveal date.
 

pixelation

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,548
User Banned (1 Day): Platform Warring
Sony doesnt need to be the most powerful console. They will be fine even at 9.2TF.

MS must be the most powerful to change their narrative and 3rd placing this gen.

Both will rock.
MS can have all the Tflops in the world, I'll still choose Playstation because in the end it's all about the games and MS doesn't even come close to Sony.
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
I am like you, interrogative, and the question could be asked between other platforms. I have no doubt about Lockhart running Xbox Series-based games flawlessly, the problem isn't there for me. More like, with exaggeration, having a 2080Ti but only RetroArch to run with, compared to a 2070 capable of launching any PC games.

When you say "twice the power needed", it's not contradictory with what I said about resolution. To put in another way : when Mark Cerny said that ± 8TF would be needed to push PS4 games to a native 4K, but the One X achieved that with 6TF - did he lied or was he wrong ? Nope, it's because the One X bump games build for a 1.3x TF baseline and the PS4 for 1.8x.

So my question is, what does it imply for devs to have a 4TF baseline rather than 9.2/12, that's all. And I am still convinced that it means restrictions that aren't solved by a linear 2D scaling (resolution) or post-process effects (shadows etc.) but could affect the core design of a game (heights of reliefs, animation complexity, etc.).

For me Lockhart is the answer to three problems for Microsoft :

1) as a brand, avoiding to let the Serie X alone against the worldwide PS5 marketing bulldozer
2) as a publisher, avoiding to burn bridges with their 1060/SATA3/Windows and One/One X/Gamepass customers
3) as a manufacturer, avoiding to offer only a premium product to the current Xbox customers

You can see how the point 2. is also interesting for publishers like EA or Ubisoft, and all those having to harvest to largest possible range of customers with the same game port. And I am not asking all this against Lockhart, but more against the argument "nothing that scaling couldn't solve". But I cannot be affirmative like if I was in gamedev because I am not, just arguing with the few I know about

Fair. You may be right about it causing other issues, as I say, I definitely don't know the technical side of this. Fingers crossed it doesn't. Or it gets canned.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
I am like you, interrogative, and the question could be asked between other platforms. I have no doubt about Lockhart running Xbox Series-based games flawlessly, the problem isn't there for me. More like, with exaggeration, having a 2080Ti but only RetroArch to run with, compared to a 2070 capable of launching any PC games.

When you say "twice the power needed", it's not contradictory with what I said about resolution. To put in another way : when Mark Cerny said that ± 8TF would be needed to push PS4 games to a native 4K, but the One X achieved that with 6TF - did he lied or was he wrong ? Nope, it's because the One X bump games build for a 1.3x TF baseline and the PS4 for 1.8x.

So my question is, what does it imply for devs to have a 4TF baseline rather than 9.2/12, that's all. And I am still convinced that it means restrictions that aren't solved by a linear 2D scaling (resolution) or post-process effects (shadows etc.) but could affect the core design of a game (heights of reliefs, animation complexity, etc.).

For me Lockhart is the answer to three problems for Microsoft :

1) as a brand, avoiding to let the Serie X alone against the worldwide PS5 marketing bulldozer
2) as a publisher, avoiding to burn bridges with their 1060/SATA3/Windows and One/One X/Gamepass customers
3) as a manufacturer, avoiding to offer only a premium product to the current Xbox customers

You can see how the point 2. is also interesting for publishers like EA or Ubisoft, and all those having to harvest to largest possible range of customers with the same game port. And I am not asking all this against Lockhart, but more against the argument "nothing that scaling couldn't solve". But I cannot be affirmative like if I was in gamedev because I am not, just arguing with the few I know about
What is the difference between Lockhart and XSX?
 

褲蓋Calo

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 1, 2020
781
Shenzhen, China
Okay, thank you.

I'm not trying to argue against this, but rather expand my knowledge, but my understanding was that there was a fairly clear link between resolution and necessary GPU power in that to power twice the pixels you need twice the power.

Is that entirely incorrect or is it more that there are other considerations on top of that? For instance, throwing a load of particles around on screen (or whatever graphical effect), might require X amount of GPU power regardless of what the resolution you output is, there would then be an additional cost that scales with the resolution that you then display it at?
Both are correct! Indeed there are some effects than are relatively independent to resolution, and others that are bound to resolution!
For example if a scene's geometric complexity may stay constant, but the resolution is quadrupled, then it'll result in the same amount of vertex shader invocation and 4x the pixel shader invocation.
But a lot of effects nowadays perform their "main calculations" at the pixel shader stage, so generally 2x the resolution requires 2x the GPU power is true.
 

MykhellMikado

Alt account
Banned
Jan 13, 2020
823
That's my thinking as well...

If I go PS5 this gen, it would be hard not to also pickup a Lockhart so that keep enjoying all my Gamepass benefits


Nah. There would be nothing stopping a developer from using the extra Tflops to push graphical upgrades w/ advanced upscaling instead of native 4k/60.

Considering the diminishing returns of native 4k compared to modern upscaling techniques, I'd say this approach will be the norm for XSX.

I don't see why MS wouldn't just mandate it.
If it's doing 1080P/30 on Lockhart it would be trivial to require 4K/60fps on XSX and give MS a talking point.

"Every game on XSX runs at native 4K/60fps minimum."
 
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