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Which team are you on?

  • Double Team (1997)

  • Team Walnut

  • The A-Team

  • Team "No One Can Stop Mr. Domino"

  • Sports Team

  • "I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel."

  • Team Margarita


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Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,930
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
RDNA TF is not a thing, its just efficiency. In reality and after factoring diminishing returns...
I can't believe even you are doing this between architectural TF conversion thing. Really disappointing coming from a tech guru like yourself. Just stop alluding to stuff, come out and say if you believe PS5 is 9TF and that is totally fine. You can say that it is your speculation and no different from the rest of ours. It seems to me you are trying your damnest to beat around the bushes and avoid saying your own goddamn opinion for fear of either being held up by double standards since you are verified and one of the DF figures or revealing a source of your knowledge that is the basis of your opinion... If you preface whatever you are saying with those are your opinion, then it won't be considered here as 'insider' stuff or ' leaks' or whatever. But on the other Han if you are writing stuff with your verified persona then please expound your statements, and explain more than two-three sentences each post which are similar to those 'insider' puzzles and hints and alludes, that is getting tiresome. This here is presented as you reminding us of scientific facts like water boils at hundred degrees celsius or something to that accord without really expounding upon it, when every other literate person also knows that fact but also knows that, that 100 degrees figure also depends on the altitude and thus the fact is scientifically lacking in detail... and back to my original point; you are not saying all that you know or want to say, but alluding to something or else why would you took it upon yourself to fact check and correct that specific statement from another poster according to your knowledge without giving us the bigger picture.
I was indeed joking.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Thanks for the detailed breakdown.
One thing that's not clear to me is when the testing happened. I thought the github repo was found in July 2019 by komachi, but the testing had started closer to March.
I don't really know the actual timeline because I got the Github files in an edited batch with the file structure flattened so I have no time stamps on the files. Maybe someone else here knows when was the last OberonB0 tests done.
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
IMO it's not some Navi APU ready for testing, it's the actual PS5 APU at some point of its development. I don't see the point of doing BC tests on a GPU which isn't the PS5's GPU. OberonA0 and B0 are two different iGPUs, they are not some 5700 placeholder, they are tests that actually test the difference between the A0 and B0 stepping in three different modes. Yes, RDNA 2 and the PS5 APU aren't consumer-ready in mid-2019, not even close to the tape-out stage (which is probably around now), but they are in their final stages and they needed to be ready to be placed inside a sample console by the end of 2019.
So obviously you think Big Navi was available for testing at that time.
 

Betamaxbandit

Member
Jan 30, 2018
2,084
User Warned: Platform warring
Because it won't just impact loading. Remedy mentioned leveraging it for extra CPU power, for example.

The SSD will play a bigger role than this thread makes it seem.

is SSD this generations "secret sauce" / power of the cloud / extra gpu in the power brick?

I get that it will offer tangible differences but it seems to be something Sony fans are really hanging their hats on as the thing that will win the "war" The cries of SSD have only gotten louder it seems since the Xbox spec drop
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
If I have to guess, I would say that Oberon is the PS5 iGPU and it is one of two options:
1) 2 SEs with 40 CUs, 36 active.
2) 3 SEs with 60 CUs, 54 active.

Another option is that Sony's "secret sauce" has decoupled the SE from the realtime disabling of hardware and in that case, anything is possible, every CU count that is devisable by 4 coupled with 2 SEs.

IMO option #1 is the most likely considering option #2 @2Ghz will probably make the XSX (which is all out balls to the wall console design) seem like a tiny ice cube. But who knows, anything is possible.

option 2 could run at 1.6-1.7GHz and only ramp up to 2GHz when switching down to 36CU - or whatever combination of clocks might come out to roughly the same heat generation and therefore be handled by the cooler they build
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
IMO option #1 is the most likely considering option #2 @2Ghz will probably make the XSX (which is all out balls to the wall console design) seem like a tiny ice cube. But who knows, anything is possible.
If, like me, you believe it is option #2, that means 36CU@2Ghz is a special mode. A "PS4 Pro boost mode" for BC.
When you use the full chip (54CU), you go back to a more reasonable speed.

This is not really something new. We have this in CPU since a long time.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
are you saying most people will buy a more powerful box to play third party games even if it's more expensive? Because I'd disagree with that. Price is critical, and brand is important but secondary. Power is Imo a distant third - although perhaps more important to a smaller hardcore audience than the mainstream

Power is a nice thing but outside of the PS4 not once has the most powerfull console "won" in the end.

- NES won over the MaSter System
- SNES won over the Mega Drive
- PS1 won over the N64
- PS2 won over the GameCube and the Xbox
- Wii won over the PS3 which won over the 360

Even the PSP lost to the NDS and the Vita lost against the 3DS.

Power is a really nice thing to have but even if the PS5 is only 8tf the difference would be smaler than between the Xbox One and the PS4.

And people like Matt, Klee and Schreier already told us that the both console aren't that far away from each other in terms of power.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
option 2 could run at 1.6-1.7GHz and only ramp up to 2GHz when switching down to 36CU - or whatever combination of clocks might come out to roughly the same heat generation and therefore be handled by the cooler they build
If, like me, you believe it is option #2, that means 36CU@2Ghz is a special mode. A "PS4 Pro boost mode" for BC.
When you use the full chip (54CU), you go back to a more reasonable speed.

This is not really something new. We have this in CPU since a long time.
Doing so will require to test and bin every PS5 APU for 2Ghz too. Just because you can enable 54CUs @1.7Ghz it doesn't mean the same chip can hit 2Ghz with 36CU active. IMO it will probably won't happen, Sony won't make the PS5 APU more expensive just so PS4 games in boost mode will have extra 15% performance. I doubt Sony will be willing to invest a single dollar in that, BC games with dynamic resolution will hit their native resolution with 1.7Ghz easily, another 300Mhz will have a diminishing return.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,514
Chicagoland
I'm fucking hungry for PS5 reveal.

Anyone seen a PS5?
EnchantedForcefulCoypu-size_restricted.gif
Anyone?
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
I don't really know the actual timeline because I got the Github files in an edited batch with the file structure flattened so I have no time stamps on the files. Maybe someone else here knows when was the last OberonB0 tests done.
I think possibly as late as June.
So obviously you think Big Navi was available for testing at that time.
Did AMD work on testing samples of Big Navi? Yes, I do believe AMD tested big Navi in 2019 if Big Navi is coming out in the coming months.
There was no big NAVI for testing in June. It should have been in Fab though.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
In a time where ppl argue digital is more convenient because they don't have to switch disks, I'm surprised how okay ppl are with switching batteries.

It honestly sounds like a pain in the ass to me. I hate clutter, and I have enough of it from game accessories. Having to keep batteries around to keep my controller powered doesn't interest me. However, it's not something I've ever had to do, so It just seems even more inconvenient than maybe to someone is that has done it for years already.
It is not something I honestly think about. You get to some things if you have been doing them for a long time.

Xbox having replaceable batteries has been a thing since last gen.
I game on both, I can live with how both are designed. You adapt to what to what you have to work with, and it is an amazingly simple job.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
sorry for the incredibly dumb question, but when can we expect the PS5 reveal? Summer this year? Or relatively soon?
 
Oct 31, 2019
411
Doing so will require to test and bin every PS5 APU for 2Ghz too. Just because you can enable 54CUs @1.7Ghz it doesn't mean the same chip can hit 2Ghz with 36CU active. IMO it will probably won't happen, Sony won't make the PS5 APU more expensive just so PS4 games in boost mode will have extra 15% performance. I doubt Sony will be willing to invest a single dollar in that, BC games with dynamic resolution will hit their native resolution with 1.7Ghz easily, another 300Mhz will have a diminishing return.
Can fab process already provide those chip necessities without actual binning though? Maybe the process is inherently efficient enough?
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Github data is just a BC compatibility test suite. It's very limited in scope and, thus, deriving any hard conclusions from that besides that yeah, Sony seems to be focused on getting BC working right, is extremely foolish.

A few things on what GH data is or isn't:

1. The Github data was significantly more than a BC compatibility test suite. They were had run or about to run the same regression tests on Renoir, MI100, Arden, Sparkman, Ariel, Navi 10, and Gladius. People only focus on Ariel, Arden and Oberon for obvious reasons but you statement is completely incorrect. Ariel has three cases in two of which it changes clocks and CUs which exactly match PS4 and PS4 Pro. This was full sale regression testing and its just that the Ariel/Oberon chips has cases lining up with prior PS4 versions as well as the Sony patent. It's the entire reason why people say these chips matter. These tests were not limited in scope and there is a significant amount of information in there that I have no idea what it means.

2. The case file was a snapshot in time and did not contain all of the detail or tests that were going to be performed.

3. I believe someone asked about the concept of GH being irrelevant because of the Navi timing. At the time this came out, the only RDNA chips that were really available for testing were RDNA 1 chips capped at 40 CU. This is what was used for Ariel and Oberon. Based on the advanced state of the testing, they had been tweaking and running these chips for awhile (ie there are theoretical and actuals). Arden (XSX) shows up in the files with beginnings of tests they want to run and the "theoretical value unit". The actual is blank. This is because they were spinning up to start running regression tests on the RDNA2 Arden chip (has to be RDNA 2 with >40CU), but when these files were uploaded they had not started running tests. Most likely they were prepping the files to start taking data when this got pulled. In summary, Ariel/Oberon were RDNA1 chips which were available and deep in testing when the files got pulled. Arden is RDNA2 which was obviously about to start getting put through its paces.

That being said its just a snapshot of information at that time.
 

Qash_effect

Banned
Feb 23, 2019
43
are you saying most people will buy a more powerful box to play third party games even if it's more expensive? Because I'd disagree with that. Price is critical, and brand is important but secondary. Power is Imo a distant third - although perhaps more important to a smaller hardcore audience than the mainstream

No I just feel the two system idea is smart in the sense that it will have the early adopters who care about power and it will generate a lot of revenue for them through the premium price and those gamers and also the cheaper option especially if it's true. I just feel third party games are hugely important and where they are played in dictating momentum for consoles on many levels. I feel Microsoft is acknowledging that Sony is the market leader and coming up with a comprehensive market plan to maximise their own success taking into account their competitors - again i reiterate if the two system thing is true.

I'm sure Sony have their own plans well in place too obviously but I'd like something better than a 9tf machine irrespective of whether it is 400 or 500 for myself personally and that's all I can really talk on.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
is SSD this generations "secret sauce" / power of the cloud / extra gpu in the power brick?

I get that it will offer tangible differences but it seems to be something Sony fans are really hanging their hats on as the thing that will win the "war" The cries of SSD have only gotten louder it seems since the Xbox spec drop
The first mistake is even looking at in these terms.

Why does it have to be related to console wars....
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Doing so will require to test and bin every PS5 APU for 2Ghz too. Just because you can enable 54CUs @1.7Ghz it doesn't mean the same chip can hit 2Ghz with 36CU active. IMO it will probably won't happen, Sony won't make the PS5 APU more expensive just so PS4 games in boost mode will have extra 15% performance. I doubt Sony will be willing to invest a single dollar in that, BC games with dynamic resolution will hit their native resolution with 1.7Ghz easily, another 300Mhz will have a diminishing return.

i agree - too much risk for almost no reward (BC with some boost is fine).

then maybe it was a BC stress test and not applicable to planned consumer units at all?
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
If Big Navi comes out in 2021? Probably not. If Big Navi comes out in a few months? Yes, they would have engineering samples in July 2019, less than a year from launch.
It came out shortly after June, it (engineering samples) was found in August so it may have dropped in July or August. Big Navi will release H2 this year, mass production was opened last October.
 

CanisMajoris

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
887
Doing so will require to test and bin every PS5 APU for 2Ghz too. Just because you can enable 54CUs @1.7Ghz it doesn't mean the same chip can hit 2Ghz with 36CU active. IMO it will probably won't happen, Sony won't make the PS5 APU more expensive just so PS4 games in boost mode will have extra 15% performance. I doubt Sony will be willing to invest a single dollar in that, BC games with dynamic resolution will hit their native resolution with 1.7Ghz easily, another 300Mhz will have a diminishing return.

But 2Ghz RX5700 sounds terrible for a game console. why go for ~1TF increase and introduce whole bunch of yield and cooling problems, you are not closing much of a gap on XSX.
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
A few things on what GH data is or isn't:

1. The Github data was significantly more than a BC compatibility test suite. They were had run or about to run the same regression tests on Renoir, MI100, Arden, Sparkman, Ariel, Navi 10, and Gladius. People only focus on Ariel, Arden and Oberon for obvious reasons but you statement is completely incorrect. Ariel has three cases in two of which it changes clocks and CUs which exactly match PS4 and PS4 Pro. This was full sale regression testing and its just that the Ariel/Oberon chips has cases lining up with prior PS4 versions as well as the Sony patent. It's the entire reason why people say these chips matter. These tests were not limited in scope and there is a significant amount of information in there that I have no idea what it means.

2. The case file was a snapshot in time and did not contain all of the detail or tests that were going to be performed.

3. I believe someone asked about the concept of GH being irrelevant because of the Navi timing. At the time this came out, the only RDNA chips that were really available for testing were RDNA 1 chips capped at 40 CU. This is what was used for Ariel and Oberon. Based on the advanced state of the testing, they had been tweaking and running these chips for awhile (ie there are theoretical and actuals). Arden (XSX) shows up in the files with beginnings of tests they want to run and the "theoretical value unit". The actual is blank. This is because they were spinning up to start running regression tests on the RDNA2 Arden chip (has to be RDNA 2 with >40CU), but when these files were uploaded they had not started running tests. Most likely they were prepping the files to start taking data when this got pulled. In summary, Ariel/Oberon were RDNA1 chips which were available and deep in testing when the files got pulled. Arden is RDNA2 which was obviously about to start getting put through its paces.

That being said its just a snapshot of information at that time.

Do you agree that if a 40CU-max chip was the only Navi APU available at the time of Github testing, that shoots a big hole in the relevance of Github to the PS5?
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,299
Once those ps5 devkits photos leaked, MS knew they had the teraflop battle in the bag.

I truly do think Sony didn't expect MS to go 12tf.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta
I can't believe even you are doing this between architectural TF conversion thing. Really disappointing coming from a tech guru like yourself. Just stop alluding to stuff, come out and say if you believe PS5 is 9TF and that is totally fine. You can say that it is your speculation and no different from the rest of ours. It seems to me you are trying your damnest to beat around the bushes and avoid saying your own goddamn opinion for fear of either being held up by double standards since you are verified and one of the DF figures or revealing a source of your knowledge that is the basis of your opinion... If you preface whatever you are saying with those are your opinion, then it won't be considered here as 'insider' stuff or ' leaks' or whatever. But on the other Han if you are writing stuff with your verified persona then please expound your statements, and explain more than two-three sentences each post which are similar to those 'insider' puzzles and hints and alludes, that is getting tiresome. This here is presented as you reminding us of scientific facts like water boils at hundred degrees celsius or something to that accord without really expounding upon it, when every other literate person also knows that fact but also knows that, that 100 degrees figure also depends on the altitude and thus the fact is scientifically lacking in detail... and back to my original point; you are not saying all that you know or want to say, but alluding to something or else why would you took it upon yourself to fact check and correct that specific statement from another poster according to your knowledge without giving us the bigger picture.

Let's take a chill pill and just look forward to these boxes, both of which will be great.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
No I just feel the two system idea is smart in the sense that it will have the early adopters who care about power and it will generate a lot of revenue for them through the premium price and those gamers and also the cheaper option especially if it's true. I just feel third party games are hugely important and where they are played in dictating momentum for consoles on many levels. I feel Microsoft is acknowledging that Sony is the market leader and coming up with a comprehensive market plan to maximise their own success taking into account their competitors - again i reiterate if the two system thing is true.

I'm sure Sony have their own plans well in place too obviously but I'd like something better than a 9tf machine irrespective of whether it is 400 or 500 for myself personally and that's all I can really talk on.

Ah I see. yes with Lockhart it becomes more interesting how power/price dynamics will work

MS would obviously want that to be 'most powerful' and 'most affordable', while Sony would try and pitch ps5 as the Goldilocks console and try to paint xsx as 'too expensive' and Lockhart as 'too weak'

I don't think hardcore will care - xsx will be attractive to them. My biggest unknown is Lockhart. Yes it'll be cheaper but if Sony can succeed to pint it as underpowered then it may not be such a success
 

Marble

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
3,819
sorry for the incredibly dumb question, but when can we expect the PS5 reveal? Summer this year? Or relatively soon?

Well there was a small "timed" pastebin message yesterday that a reveal of the reveal date will happen tomorrow. I have my hopes on that. This would make the 12TF Xbox news not just some random drop out of nowhere.

But it's probably nothing in the end.

Pic:
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
If I have to guess, I would say that Oberon is the PS5 iGPU and it is one of two options:
1) 2 SEs with 40 CUs, 36 active.
2) 3 SEs with 60 CUs, 54 active.

Another option is that Sony's "secret sauce" has decoupled the SE from the realtime disabling of hardware and in that case, anything is possible, every CU count

What's your view on the liklihood of that secret sauce considering how complicated the bussing and meshes are in RDNA1? Think if you are going to be disabling CUs on the fly you need to build the entire bus around that concept to ensure it works. If you use the disabling mechanic within an existing setup and run tons of tests on it you can likely try and workout the kinks via stepping. Considering the RNDA architecture, I can't imagine going with HW back compat on an untested RDNA 2 design unless you completely ran all of the bussing yourself.

It's a nice reminder that adding more compute units isn't as simple as just finding a spot for them, there are rather complex physical routing issues involved as well.


https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

isscc2020-bus-planning.png
 

Belvedere

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,682
I'm sure it's been repeated endlessly by now (/fastthread) but even if we assume a 9.2TF PS5 isn't the performance delta between XSX and PS5 even smaller than Pro and 1X? This isn't even considering the RAM and memory bandwidth disparity that likely won't be a factor.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
Once those ps5 devkits photos leaked, MS knew they had the teraflop battle in the bag.

I truly do think Sony didn't expect MS to go 12tf.
Why wouldn't they after all that talk about power and the Xbox one X?
On top of that you have the Stadia blades at 10.7tf which launched what, 4 months ago and were announced a year ago ?

The only (still possible) surprise for Sony would be MS willingness to go full dumping and selling well under costs at $399, instead of a likely $499 (where I imagine rhey would already be losing money).
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
i agree - too much risk for almost no reward (BC with some boost is fine).

then maybe it was a BC stress test and not applicable to planned consumer units at all?
That wouldn't explain the 2Ghz Flute leak, why would they always test it at 2Ghz? I mean, we have a lot of missing information so who knows, but IMO 2Ghz is some form of native Oberon mode, not just stress testing. When we only had the Flute leak with a 2Ghz GPU, I was also assuming it was some sort of stress test (I guess you can find old posts I've made that talk about 2Ghz in a console is too high and Flute was probably stress-tested). But now that we have two data points, both Flute and Github leak, I think Oberon does have a 2Ghz mode I doubt it's just for BC mode.

It came out shortly after June, it (engineering samples) was found in August so it may have dropped in July or August. Big Navi will release H2 this year, mass production was opened last October.
If Big Navi's mass production started in October then 1000% they had engineering samples in mid-2019, even much earlier than that. I haven't heard about the Big Navi engineering sample from August, what stepping it was at?
But 2Ghz RX5700 sounds terrible for a game console. why go for ~1TF increase and introduce whole bunch of yield and cooling problems, you are not closing much of a gap on XSX.
1) The 5700 came out in mid-2019 when 7nm was in its diapers, we don't know what clocks make sense and which don't in a mature 2020 7nm node.
2) Lisa Su confirmed Navi refresh in 2020, so again, who knows what clocks makes sense on a refreshed 5700 in 2020.
3) We don't even know if PS5 is on 7nm, n7p or maybe 7nm+, so how can we make assumptions about clocks?
4) We don't know the story behind the PS5's development so we don't know what was their goal in each and every point in time.

What's your view on the liklihood of that secret sauce considering how complicated the bussing and meshes are in RDNA1? Think if you are going to be disabling CUs on the fly you need to build the entire bus around that concept to ensure it works. If you use the disabling mechanic within an existing setup and run tons of tests on it you can likely try and workout the kinks via stepping. Considering the RNDA architecture, I can't imagine going with HW back compat on an untested RDNA 2 design unless you completely ran all of the bussing yourself.




https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3331/radeon-rx-5700-navi-and-the-rdna-architecture/

isscc2020-bus-planning.png
I totally agree that Sony will probably have to disable by SE and the likelihood of that secrete sauce existing is extremely low.
 

Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Do you agree that if a 40CU-max chip was the only Navi APU available at the time of Github testing, that shoots a big hole in the relevance of Github to the PS5?

What do you mean? Why would you waste millions of dollars running these tests and stepping when these tests will end up meaning nothing in RDNA2?

RDNA2 and adding the CUs requires completely different pathing and bussing and would essentially make all of these tests irrelevant. RDNA1 and RDNA2 share the same DNA and concepts and the learnings from RNDA1 impacted RDNA2, but you don't just switch to RDNA2 and assume everything will work the same.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Doing so will require to test and bin every PS5 APU for 2Ghz too. Just because you can enable 54CUs @1.7Ghz it doesn't mean the same chip can hit 2Ghz with 36CU active. IMO it will probably won't happen, Sony won't make the PS5 APU more expensive just so PS4 games in boost mode will have extra 15% performance. I doubt Sony will be willing to invest a single dollar in that, BC games with dynamic resolution will hit their native resolution with 1.7Ghz easily, another 300Mhz will have a diminishing return.
What ? Why ? Why reasoning the other way around ?
If I remember correctly, overcloacking the 5700 XT was pretty easy.

But I still doesn't understand those 2Ghz and tried to find an explanation. I don't think restraining your design to facilitate BC is something that Cerny would have done.
 
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