Question: if due to virus and/or other black swans PS5 will be completely canceled or redone and marketed as PS4U / PS Neo / whatever - for how long will we carry on with the avatars of shame?
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Question: if due to virus and/or other black swans PS5 will be completely canceled or redone and marketed as PS4U / PS Neo / whatever - for how long will we carry on with the avatars of shame?
Sony has been anything but reactionary to Xbox so far in announcements.
Pretty sure stuff like camera's and drones have been steadily increasing in their prices. Tv's are actually very cheap compared to what they used to cost I think.
Then there is stuff like fitbits and smart watches that keep getting more expensive models.
Anyways it really doesn't matter nor does it take away from the fact that most people are expecting $500 consoles. I'm pretty sure people are expecting increased prices and as such the motion that the PS5 needs to be $400 in order to be succesful is just stupid.
That sure sounds like a lot of niche "premium"-tier products.
Are game consoles niche premium-tier products?
No one ever participates in the console market hoping for a small but profitable niche, except for maybe Neo Geo. Sony is playing for market dominance. Microsoft is playing for market dominance. By definition, this means they're both going after the larger market.
(lmao at listing a bunch of categories with the "premium" qualifier to support the assertion that prices for electronics in general have steeply increased)
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If there is a plan you just execute it. You are thinking in the line of politics and none is needed in gaming.
Whatever the github leak is it's not up to date that's for sure.
Klee said both are on double digits teraflops, he also said both are using GPU's more powerful and advanced than 5700XT.
Jason said both are going for above RTX 2080 performance, he also said it will be really hard to know which machine is the best.
Matt has been saying both machines are awesome and they're close despite having differences beetween them.
Anyone has the right to not believe insiders but, they've been proven right so many times in the last few months that's it's hard to ignore it.
Oh, agreed on that. The PS2 would've been a better comparison point - I remember hearing that it was initially sold at a loss of $188, though they were able to shrink that quickly. A PS5 sold at a loss that didn't shrink as quickly but was only $100 (after 20 years of inflation) and backed up by huge PSN profits could be considered roughly similar.
Phone argument is tired because disposable income actually decreased and phones are not in the same purchase category as consoles. Pricing is important.
I'm not using war chest argument at all. I'm saying is likely that Xbox has a BOM of 500 and PS5 of 450, while Xbox being more powerful. That makes it a 50 dollars difference which is too low to differentiate. I don't believe that either will take a significant loss.
I'm of opinion that Sony slipped in exactly the same way as MS did previously - by not taking into account situation change, in this case price increase of some components and MS going all in on chip. Azure is important, since they buy a lot of volume of CPUs , memory and disks, which makes for a better bargaining position, especially when it comes to temporary price increases.
There is a saying that when war repeats, winner of the previous one expects another one just like it and loser changes strategy. I feel people significantly underestimate MS value offering this time around, where power of the console is just the cherry on top - more diverse exclusives, convenience features and most importantly Gamepass will make a lot of difference. Of course, Sony will still have a lot of customers(even myself I can't imagine skipping God of war and Insomniac games), but thinking that they have to win no matter what is what made "arrogant Sony" memes.
I openly admit that I prefer MS as a brand(even though I bought more games on PS4 this generation and I had it way shorter), but this is personal and dates back to PS3 days. My predictions come though from analyzing the market situation and messaging, as well as ignoring insiders as I find them to be quite often... let's say unreliable.
Obviously, that's a hypothetical situation and numbers would be revealed soon by DF and the likes anyway, but if they let the games speak very few would be able to tell they are at a technical disadvantage. Even fewer would care.
Sony didn't sell 100M consoles to DF subscribers or even enthusiasts.
The vast majority of their target won't walk into a mall, see a 9TF PS5 running GT7 besides a 12TF Series X running FM8 and conclude that XSX definitely is more powerful AND a better purchase (that's a whole nother leap still) because the image is kinda sharper and shadows are maybe less blocky.
Sony could have been building a slightly cheaper machine that can still be a huge leap in terms of overall user experience (RT, SSD, controller features) and they might have a more 'balanced', well rounded and appealing product in the end.
That would be fuckin stupid and people would riot.
You can't sell a 500$ Console letting people think this is the best they can get, to then release a better version only a year later.
People would lose confidence in Sony because they don't know if the Hardware they just bought is the best they can get for the next few Years.
First of all, it's not a big advantage. Second of all, we don't know the price or details about the rest of the hardware. GPU isn't everything.
In first party games it would be transformative. RT effects are incredibly expensive. Developers on XSX will have a 12TF pool to split between traditional shading and RT effects.
If the PS5 uses PowerVR RT it would likely not only be very good but very power efficient. PowerVR have been working on RT for years before anyone else, hold loads of patents and have a patented solution that is very different from what NVIDIA have and what AMD will have. They had functional RT working on mobile phone GPUs 4-5 years ago.
Scale that up to a desktop class APU and with 5 more years of development it would probably be a very potent solution and importantly that would mean the full 9.2TF of the Navi CUs (which also lacked any mention of RT in GitHub) would be devoted to traditional rendering. So if XSX uses 4TF for RT global illumination, shadows and reflections that would leave 8TF for traditional rendering. If PS5 can do all of that RT stuff with a Power VR RTU then that would actually leave 9.2TF for rendering and likely result in marginally better looking games.
You are right that in games that don't heavily utilise RT the XSX games will look better, which may be the case for a lot of third party games.
One of the funny things about the GitHub leak, well one of the endless odd things, was that Oberon seems to be a very standard 5700 design. Very little customisation noted. Both PS4 and PS4Pro were highly customised APUs. Did Mark Cerny and Sony just not bother with any of this for PS5? Or is there more to it?
The other aspect is that if PS5 is 9.2TF and also has to use a significant portion of that on RT then we're looking at a 6TF equivalent machine when it comes to traditional rendering. Again, with such a low powered machine it would struggle to offer compelling RT effects while also producing excellent visuals (it would likely be close to current gen just with RT) - at which point you would have to wonder what is the point of wasting so much resources on RT and offering it?
The other thing to note is that developers are investing heavily into RT. The Metro devs said when they saw next gen consoles they were going all out with RT incorporation into their engine. That doesn't sound like 9.2TF a huge portion of which would have to be spent on RT. The 5700 series doesn't have RT likely for a variety of reasons, one of which would be that it would tank performance too much and the cards are too weak to run games well with it because it splits the resources. It's also one of the reasons I suspect the XSX is so powerful, if you want to support RT properly you're going to need ~12TF.
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Which is why there's no reason to hide the number in the first place. Doing that just makes you look insecure about your product. If you have the weaker console then own it and focus on the areas where you're strong. Power isn't going to be the determining factor anyway. It'll only hurt them if it's vastly weaker at a similar price point.
You say you don't use the warchest argument but somehow you think that the XsX has a BOM of 500 with a 12tf GPU and 20gb of ram while Sony has a BOM of 450 with 16gb of ram and a 9tf GPU? It doesn't add up man.
The way MS slipped up last time (ignoring the Kinect) was by going with a DDR+ESRAM combo instead of going for gddr5 like Sony did. I don't see how anything even comparible is possible this time around.
Edit: and ofcourse pricing is important but it's just as important for MS as it is for Sony. Saying otherwise just leads back to your warchest argument. I.e. MS can afford to take a bigger hit on the XsX because they have more money.
RT is very flexible, if one console has better RT performance then most games will just throw a few more rays into the scene, making the RT effect that both are using look better on that version. It's not much different than if the consoles have 2TF-3TF difference in GPU power, developers will just render in a bit lower resolution on the weaker console. We are being overly dramatic on his whole TF subject. If we really are getting a 9.2TF and a 12TF console, the difference will probably start and end with something like a 1900p VS 2160p resolution difference.
9vs 12 tf is huge.. enough to make 30 games run on 60 on other platforms
I think it really boils down to how hard they want to compete this holiday with MS. If the XSX is $499 and the PS5 is the same they better be pretty close in power.
Mind you this is only partaking to the US market.
This premium products have more features added, in the case of phones, more cameras, more RAM, more bespoke chips, Face ID, whatever, the point is people bought these more advanced more expensive phones in huge numbers to the point it was covered extensively about the rising average price of new phones.
The same is true for tablets, they used to cost less on average, now they cost more because a percentage of people are buying more premium expensive tablets with more tech.
The same is true with gaming monitors. The same is true with motherboards. People are spending more on average.
Lol I guess? It's certainly a far cry from you saying there were zero examples of price increases.
When you say last gen you mean ps4-xb1 gen ?
Before the reveals, the focus was on ram because ps4 reportedly had only 4 GB while xb1 would have had 8 which was considered quite a huge problem for sony.
After the reveals, the focus stayed on RAM because people debated around which setup was better between full gddr5 vs ddr3+ a bit of eSram. The gpu situation was pretty cut and dry so there was nothing to talk about despite the crazy dgpu theories.
This time around, a comparable memory setup is expected so if we go by the 12tf confirmed vs 9tf rumored, then the gap would be there.
In regards to the BOM discussion and Sony being at say $450 and MS being at $500 for example is anyone factoring in that Sony will most likely to be able to negotiate a much better price based on economies of scale and the sheer volume of components they will be most likely committing too? Like Sony could be committing to buying 80M PS5 chips over the next 5 years vs MS only committing to 40M for example which would mean they would have much lower costs and therefore have more wiggle room for final price.
The only difference is chip and a quarter more memory(and memory is my speculation). Also, Sony probably has more expensive SSD(with RAM cache for example). 50 dollars difference would be 400 at minimal loss and profitable 500 for MS in normal situation. Now it will be 500 at minimal loss for MS and either 450 at minimal loss for Sony or 500 at a profit. My bet is that they cared about pricing and it failed. Feel free to believe otherwise.
Numbers are used that make comparisons easy.
"X console has a higher number. It is better."
But yeah, you definitely shouldn't look at a single thing like that. The other parts of the machine will play a significant role into overall performance as well.
If people want to believe rumors of Horizon being ported to PC, then they need to believe that both consoles are pretty much identical and around 2080 super performance.
I don't buy a console for multiplatform titles but for exclusives. So the one thing I am sure of, is that I am buying a PS5, regardless of the power difference. And personally I find the power difference between Pro and X1X negligible at the distance I am sitting, since it only results in a resolution difference and sometimes even favours PS4 Pro (Modern Warfare, Outer Worlds, to name 2 recent examples). So as long as it doesn't impact the gameplay experience (for example 30fps vs. 60fps), I'm okay with also using the lower spec machine for all multiplatform titles. I don't have any desire in investing in yet another eco system, nor am I interested in GamePass.
So just resolution then. I am perfectly fine with everything from 1440p.
Thanks.
Do you mean the TF difference could actually cause a big difference in framerate? Isn't that a more CPU heavy task?
1. It does not matter how talented a developer is; if they are working on inferior tech, the gap will always show.
2. People need to stop worrying about Microsoft's studios. They will be fine.
Again, i'm not saying they should or could; it's hypothetical
What i'm saying is people in here are too worried about numbers when in real life, games themselves will never give away a difference big enough to impact sales.
You aren't wrong - it's probably going to be comparable to PS4Pro vs Xbox One X. XSX will probably hit native 4K while PS5 will use reconstruction.
It's just very hard to marry 9.2TF vs 12TF with what we got up to that from insiders. Maybe they are all wrong, it will be interesting to find out.
Part of me would love to see a Power VR RTU in PS5 though, weird esoteric solutions are quite exciting.
RAM was one of the key differences in the two companies' hardware decisions last time. It looked like Sony was going for a smaller quantity of faster, pricier RAM, while Microsoft was going to include a larger quantity of slower, cheaper RAM. People debated the pros and cons of each approach. In the end, Sony managed to ship the same quantity of RAM while using the faster, pricier stuff. It was quite a dramatic coup.
This time, there's no difference between their approaches that is as obvious (at this point) as RAM was last time, so we don't have something as interesting to discuss. So we discuss pricing and flops.
FLOPS (we're up to teraflops now, dear god) are basically how many computing operations you can do per second (that's the -OPS). It's not the only factor in comparing overall system performance, but it is an important one, and (perhaps more important for our discussion) it's an obvious, easily understandable metric, which is why Xbox has used it in marketing and why it gets attention over things like SSD access times.
If the studio who has the strongest tech also have to adapt the game to previous gen hardware thoguh, the gap with the talented developer would be meaningless.
They will sell out in there first holiday even in the US the question is what happen afterwards .
That is if Sony is the same price but weaker or don't have something to show that value.
I mean, how do you still believe Sony would allow such a difference in terms of TF between ps5 and the new Xbox? It's crazy to think.
also and unfortunately, they are being hit by the corona virus situation and I'm sure a lot of plans and schedules are being changed.
Friggin' THANK YOU!
Can we please move on from the fanboyism now? We're getting RTX 2080 Super performance this upcoming generation, guys and gals... This is fucking insane. Let's celebrate that fact!
Yeah we aren't coming to an agreement, especially not if you are like "It's only a bigger die and only a quarter more ram.".
Sony could very wel have spent their focus on different parts (like a custom ssd setup) but I doubt that would bring them so close to the XsX BOM if they only have 9tf and 16gb ram.
Anyways only time will tell.
i'm about 99% sure that if i had non-enthusiasts come over to play GT Sport or God of War or Uncharted 4 on my PS4 Amateur and say FM7 or SOTTR on my One X, most would never suspect One X hardware is vastly superior.
I'm just joking because surely, this is how some people will want to read that.
I doubt a difference of 20%-30% in order size will make much difference. Both companies will probably be every supplier's biggest customer by a large margin and both will get the lowest price that supplier can afford in order to strike such a huge deal.
They might be targeting different price points and different box sizes. If they want a device as compact as PS4Pro, they're not going to squeeze as much computing power as MS with the big(ish) XSX.
How would MS allow bigger relative difference last gen? This is a bad argument.
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