PS5 and Xbox Series speculation |OT11| Cry Havoc and Let Slip the Dogs of War [NEW NEWS, NEW THREAD - CHECK OUT THE STAFF POST]

[Doctor Avatar]

I said AMD is not building an ENTIRE MICRO-ARCHITECTURE OR GPU CLASS for Sony. And they are not.

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I think someone needs a hug.

I mean isn't the easier read here that they aren't using RDNA 2.0 and DirectX RT? I've said before that I have a feeling Sony went with RDNA 1.0 because they didn't like the AMD RT solution and MS went with it and incorporated DX RT aggressively in it. It's why we don't see RT in Github.

The real question that comes out of that situation is which RT solution becomes easier to use Direct X or a custom one?

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My take home too. The tweet at least strongly suggests PS5 isn't using RDNA2 RT solution for the "hardware accelerated RT" Cerny was talking about.

Like you say also makes the Oberon leaks make more sense.

So XSX is 12TF RDNA2 while PS5 is potentially 9.2TF RDNA + some kind of custom RT core/solution.

This also could mean that GitHub and Klee, Schrier etc are right - that they are very close to each other when it comes to actual performance. That the 12TF XSX GPU is doing rasterisation AND ray tracing while the 9.2TF PS5 GPU is simply rasterising and leaving the RT up to the custom solution, resulting in very similar performance.

It would certainly be interesting.

 

[gremlinz1982]

I'm trying to read all of these responses but I can't keep up. If the PS5 is under 10 or dare I say 9.2 TF will Sony fans turn against them? As long as the games are good who cares?

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Wont happen. You may not like a weaker console, but at the end of the day, the only difference in 3rd party games will most likely be resolution or some effects scaled down.

That isnt enough to dump a console for most.

 

[Chopin the Third]

Series X looks to be a great piece of kit. There wasn't much new in that post, but the confirmation of 12TF RDNA2 is awesome. I still think PS5 will fall in the 9-10.5TF range though. I'm glad both platforms will be packing a bunch of features many thought would never materialize, at least not until next next gen.

I'm looking forward to Sony's PS5 reveal. Whether that's very soon or a couple of months or more away, who knows, but I'm sure they'll deliver and show some mind-blowing stuff. Same with MS.

 

[Binabik15]

Just when this thread was on life support MS drops this. And some people are still parsing old quotes and math to make the SeX 12 Tflops GCN. Oh boy.

Not sure if I want Sony to drop their specs soon-ish as well...or stay silent and make people even more crazy. Maybe drop another logo on Twitter 🤣

For real, though, gimme dat 10+ Tflops PS5 already so I can feel superior to the 8 crew.

 

[Deleted member 61469]

Looks like he answered Colbert

Matt Hargett on Twitter

“@ColbertIam I can’t answer anything ;) But I agree with your highlight that raw power is just part of the story. What does it allow creators to do that they couldn’t before? What efficiencies get unlocked from the perspective of end-to-end game production for 1P, MMO, and GaaS titles?”

twitter.com

 

[chris 1515]

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Just telling you this if RDNA brought 1.25-1.3 times the performance of Vega (highest GCN architecture), even if it was RDNA 1, it means on console ecosystem it is even more thanks to low level APIs, coding to the meteal and optimisations.
Now it's RDNA2, a total next-gen architecture from AMD unlike RDNA1. Now imagine the performance increase.

Edit: wth is this????

AMD RDNA 2: New rumors allege 50% better performance than RDNA 1 with no added power consumption

If you thought that 2019 was good for graphics cards and gamers, then think again. 2020 is already shaping up to be even better than last year, with not only new consoles and RTX 3000 around the corner, but also RDNA 2. AMD's next GPU architecture will sport huge improvements over the likes of...

www.notebookcheck.net

50% better than RDNA1 so means x 1.5 RDNA1 and RDNA1 was 1.25-1.3 better
so 1.25-1.3 x 1.5 = 1.875-1.95 GCN
So 12 Tflops RDNA 2 = 22.5 -23.4 Tflops GCN(Vega) and this is not counting console low level API and optimisations??????

 

[ImaginaShawn]

Who is syke?

 

[Evuk]

At the end of the day, competition is good.
MS showing their cards with 12tf only makes Sony push themselves to do better as well.
If 12tf is base spec for one or both consoles, what will the "Pro" versions be 2 years after that?

This is exciting news. Im hyped for this next gen to already start.

 

[mentallyinept]

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OOF.

 

[Expy]

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[asd202]

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lol

 

[sleepr]

Who is syke?

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Former principal software engineer on PS5. He just saying what he expects from XSX btw.

 

[RexNovis]

People in here praising Xbox for releasing specs but they only released a single spec. No info here about Memory speed/amounts/bus, SSD read/write/capacity, CPU speed/cache it's just one number.

I mean yea it's a good number but it's hardly a complete picture and frankly I'm much more interested in everything else we still don't know than the theoretical peak flop performance of their GPU.

here's hoping we start getting more info on memory, CPU and SSD configuration sometime in the near future

 

[asmith906]

I'm trying to read all of these responses but I can't keep up. If the PS5 is under 10 or dare I say 9.2 TF will Sony fans turn against them? As long as the games are good who cares?

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No matter how powerful Xbox is, all the Japanese games and rpgs will come to PS5. So I will have no choice but to get one if I want to play those games.

 

[mangochutney]

Inaccurate. We have Sony patent info and comparative statements from Cerny as well as confirmation of the controller in XSX. We have a decent idea that Sony's solution is faster. That doesn't mean it will be materially better in real world performance.

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We know that now we didn't know that then. The XSX controller is a very recent development, long after people already drew their conclusions. It probably would have been better if I had said 'had' zero evidence. My point on narrative stands true.

 

[darkside]

lmao at that dude just getting dragged

 

[Josh378]

So is there a reason why Sony has a release their console or specs because they're waiting for Microsoft the price drop for the new Xbox? If so, I would hate to have to wait until May or April before I get information about pricing so I know how much I need to set aside for this fall. All this console price Wars is stupid

 

[VX1]

He answered you Colbert 😃

 

[jroc74]

There's still time for a Wired article tomorrow, and MS could certainly have gotten wind of it. If I had 2/25 down for an avatar bet I'd be feeling ever so slightly better right now.

If there's not a Wired article tomorrow, I'll probably be feeling ever so slightly worse about both the PS5's potential specs and Microsoft's sense of timing hardware announcements. :)

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Don't give me hope, lol.

Now I gotta remember to download my current avatar. New phone, don't think I have this pic.

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😳

Seriously, some ppl need to stop with the fanboy, console war stuff.

 

[Fafalada]

This tweet from the PS5 hardware lead sounds like he is downing the RT capabilities of RDNA2, as if he believes there is a superior solution.

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I don't really see any downing in that tweet in context of the rest of his comments.
Though FYI - assuming RDNA2 RT is based on the AMD patent for RT, there's a rather large body of work that still runs - favorite word for this forum - "in software". So the two consoles could still have fairly large disparities (especially early on) to their RT even with identical hardware under the hood.

Multi bounce, just means... rays hitting things and then hitting things again after rebounding.

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Yea and it's somewhat iffy in existing DXR design.

 

[Deleted member 61469]

"Navi was made just for Sony"

Maybe this means something very different.

RDNA2 was what AMD were developing. But Sony didn't want the RT hardware etc and had their own solution they were building. So AMD spun off a next gen GPU design without those components - Navi. Which they released as the 5700 series because why not take advantage to get new GPU tech out there while they cooked the one with RT.

So basically Sony requested a version of their next gen GPU CUs *without* RT because they were working on their own custom hardware for that.

Also makes things a whole lot more interesting - if the RT is dealt with a different part of the chip then I would believe that a 9.2 Navi chip not handling and RT would be very close to a 12TF RDNA2 chip which would have to use those flops to do RT.

Which would unify a lot of rumours. The rumours of the consoles being super close. The rumours of Navi being developed for Sony.

This tweet from the PS5 hardware lead sounds like he is downing the RT capabilities of RDNA2, as if he believes there is a superior solution.

So PS5 could well be Oberon, which you will note also lacks any mention of RT.

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Except he doesn't work at Sony anymore.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

You know the next generation is coming when console warriors start PMing you nonsense. Keep your wits about you out there, people.

 

[____]

Former principal software engineer on PS5. He just saying what he expects from XSX btw.

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His Twitter header does say Former, but his LinkedIn profile in the same header seems to indicate he's still in that position. Although it does say Feb 2020 instead of "present"

 

[Doctor Avatar]

I don't really see any downing in that tweet in context of the rest of his comments.
Though FYI - assuming RDNA2 RT is based on the AMD patent for RT, there's a rather large body of work that still runs - favorite word for this forum - "in software". So the two consoles could still have fairly large disparities (especially early on) to their RT even with identical hardware under the hood.


Yea and it's somewhat iffy in existing DXR design.

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Given the rest of his comments this might be more accurate - that they are using the same RDNA2 RT solution and it's the software that he is being snarky about.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

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😂

 

[褲蓋Calo]

He answered you Colbert 😃

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Again with his rhetoric questions

 

[FF Seraphim]

Glad you put the cheesecake into it. Now its sweet and salty and not too dry LOL

FF Seraphim

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I would like a direct cheesecake Dragonball power level comparison between the XSX and PS5 in the future. Hopefully in March

 

[Carn]

Sounds like he's asking rhetorical questions he already has answers to.

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pretty much my takeaway as well. seems that is is purposely pointing out the vagueness of what MS is putting out as bulletpoints.

 

[chris 1515]

This tweet is AMAZING. It's like a Rorschach test, Sony fanboys see in this tweet the PS5 as superior while MS fanboys see in it a superior XSX. It's like the young lady / old lady drawing or the white dress / blue dress picture. I love it!


Maybe what he meant by the mixing of VRS and RT is using VRS to determine how many rays should be cast through each tile of pixels? After all, if this group of pixels isn't important enough to shade in full quality, it's probably not worth to ray trace in full either. It sounds pretty similar to how DICE spends its ray budget pool using tiles in BFV.

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This is not rhetorical question currently RTX/DXR is bad with transparency.

This comes from an Unreal Engine presentation about raytracing at GDC 2019.

Same the VRS question is precise too.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Given the rest of his comments this might be more accurate - that they are using the same RDNA2 RT solution and it's the software that he is being snarky about.

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Could be the case as we know there are many ways to do certain things is software and somethings work better than other for certain things.

 

[Raider34]

"Insiders"

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At that point Xbox was doomed under the Windows Division I believe they were about to be killed or sold off. Phil got to Sataya and sold him on Gamepass, Xcloud and the revenue that can be made in gaming and they gave Xbox a seat at the big table scary to think what the future holds for them if they are headed in the same direction Azure is I think that bothers some who love other platforms more.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

Hah.

Well I think it is just, like, him asking rhetorical questions about the supposed performance of RDNA 2's RT implementation. 4K 60 is just a pie in the sky goal that he names. Multi bounce, just means... rays hitting things and then hitting things again after rebounding. Frustum is a bit weird as it is describing what I assume he means as "how far outside the view frustum around the player camera is RT happening in world space" and then the thing about VRS applying is ????? because VRS is something completely different than RT and there is nothing preventing them from working together.

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After consulting with experts on RT and VRS culture, the principle engineer was questioning if RT and VRS on RDNA2 is that in practice and not in name. All that he said was fundamental characteristics of RT and VRS.

 

[MrKlaw]

I think someone needs a hug.

My take home too. The tweet at least strongly suggests PS5 isn't using RDNA2 RT solution for the "hardware accelerated RT" Cerny was talking about.

Like you say also makes the Oberon leaks make more sense.

So XSX is 12TF RDNA2 while PS5 is potentially 9.2TF RDNA + some kind of custom RT core/solution.

This also could mean that GitHub and Klee, Schrier etc are right - that they are very close to each other when it comes to actual performance. That the 12TF XSX GPU is doing rasterisation AND ray tracing while the 9.2TF PS5 GPU is simply rasterising and leaving the RT up to the custom solution, resulting in very similar performance.

It would certainly be interesting.

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can they be parallelised? I thought the CUs would be waiting for the RT to finish? if they're sequential then you won't get a big benefit from having them separate


wonder if they go big on RT could the 9.2TF be based on expecting RT to be around 1080p then rendering out at 1440p and scaling up with reconstruction? Maybe a dash of DLSS/ML upscaling?

 

[Shambala]

War never changes. I can see the ban hammer coming down strong once Sony reveals their tf number 😂😂😂

 

[Solary]

PS5 will be close to 16TF, 8x that of the PS4 through using 2x Oberon APUs with the separate chip handling AA & RT & Upscaling. £499 - £549

VR2 will be a huge focus hence the dual APU design with one chip handling each eye.

 

[chris 1515]

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

He answered you Colbert 😃

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Secret sauce confirmed.

 

[Cyborg]

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Seems like he knows much more than he is saying. Excited times ahead.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

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Seem like he calling out the fan boys lol.

 

[Kiekura]

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Is he going to destroy every Xbox fanboy on Twitter?

 

[Dictator]

Yea and it's somewhat iffy in existing DXR design.

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shooot moooore raaays

This is not rhetorical question currently RTX/DXR is bad with transparency.

This comes from an Unreal Engine presentation about raytracing at GDC 2019.

Same the VRS question is precise too.

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Transparency is expensive I think not because the API is by design limiting performance there, rather just because transparency is genuinely expensive on GPU hardware, in RT and otherwise - more so when you are mixing rasterisation and RT. I think the anyhit shader exists more or less just for transparency at this point... just that it is expensive hw wise!

Talking with the developers on Minecrafts RT implementation they said, and no joke (I even looked at him in disbelief), "path tracing fully made transparency comparatively trivial".

What do you think he meant by the VRS thing exactly?

 

[Aladan]

To me the TF number is the least interesting info for the new consoles. I want to know more about the new features, architecture, games and a price.

Hope we don't have to wait that long to know more.

 

[DavidDesu]

There's still time for a Wired article tomorrow, and MS could certainly have gotten wind of it. If I had 2/25 down for an avatar bet I'd be feeling ever so slightly better right now.

If there's not a Wired article tomorrow, I'll probably be feeling ever so slightly worse about both the PS5's potential specs and Microsoft's sense of timing hardware announcements. :)

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Oh shit.. I was gonna say that, well I did but not officially while tagging Transistor. Dammit. Others said it before me anyways. Guess I'm not winning a PS5. It is curious though, I really hope we get a better idea about PS5 soon. The wait for proper info is getting frustrating now. I just want the reveals, and I want to see these mind blowing game graphics that have been hinted at!

 

[Adookah]

Is he going to destroy every Xbox fanboy on Twitter?

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lol he is good at it.

 

[funky]

My current bet is that Xbox Lockheart will to be closer in power to the PS5 then the PS5 is to the XBX

 

[jroc74]

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Lmao at 2 of the usual suspects trying him. Wonder how many more will.

And I don't think we'll be getting any details about the PS5 from him.

GDC needs to get here asap, lol

 

[M4xim1l1ano]

Btw, did anyone thank Microsoft/Phil for dropping this on us? Because until before this reveal, this thread was YIKES.. now we have a bit more to talk about until March 5 when AMD has a financial day (hopefully not Corona virus changed) where they are supposed to talk about RDNA2

 

[Hana-Bi]

My current bet is that Xbox Lockheart will to be closer in power to the PS5 then the PS5 is to the XBX

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That would mean a Lockhart with at least 6tf and the PS5 at 8.5tf max.

Doubt that...

 

[Justsomeguy]

Hmm.
Why brand something as "smart delivery" if it was only for cross gen play... Sounds to me like exactly what you'd need if you were releasing SKUs with different graphical capabilities (Lockhart...).