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Which team are you on?

  • Double Team (1997)

  • Team Walnut

  • The A-Team

  • Team "No One Can Stop Mr. Domino"

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  • Team Margarita


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Oct 26, 2017
6,151
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You did? Good decision.

Cheers. I certainly have no regrets so far.

I know that cu size is just one factor that contributes to overall APU size, but if 20 Navi compute units takes up so little relative die space then what're the chances that the final chip will have only 36 cu (i.e. github leak)

It's not just the extra CUs you need to consider. You also need additional memory bandwidth to feed them. So 20 additional CUs might bump you up to a bigger bus width, impacting the silicon footprint for PHYs and i/o logic on the die.

I start to believe the PS5 devkit-design could be the final design of the PS5 or looks similar at least.

Let's check the devkits of PS1, PS3 and PS5 first. You could also look at the devkits of the original XBOX, GameCube and Dreamcast as a bonus. Remarkably, all these more looks like a tower PC / rack workstation than a console. And as we all know they have nothing to do with the final product.

Next let's check the PS2 DevKit:
PS2-Dev-Kit.jpg


It's very striking the DevKit looks similar to the final product. Expressed in a simple way you only need to remove the left box/extension to nearly get the final PS2 design.

After I saw that I noticed the following facts:

1. The PS2 devkit is the only PlayStation DevKit which looks like the final console (it's only significantly larger and has this Extension on the lft)
2. It Looks completely different compared to the other DevKits from Sony and some of their competitor

Next I researched the official design-registrations from PS2, PS3, and PS4 consoles and devkits:

PS2 (Release: 04-03-2000)
Console: Application date 10-12-1999, priority date 26-08-1999 (design number: 99077509)
DevKit: Application date 10-12-1999, priority date 26-08-1999 (design number: 99077507)

PS3 (Release: 11-11-2006)
Console: Application date 21-10-2005, priority date 16-05-2005 (design number: 000419411-0001)
DevKit: Application date 18-10-2006, priority date 08-05-2006 (design number: 000610860)

PS4 (Release: 15-11-2013)
Console: Application date 12-11-2013, priority date 16-05-2013 (design number: 302013005786)
DevKit: Application date 31-05-2016, priority date 02-12-2015 (design number: 302016002257)

PS5
DevKit: Application date 28-05-2019, priority date 30-11-2018 (design number: 302019002287)

You can also check the registrations @ https://www.tmdn.org/tmdsview-web/welcome.html#. Use the advanced search and copy&paste the design numbers at the design number field.

When checking the list there is one interesting fact: While the PS3 and PS4 devkit designs where registiered noticeably after the console-design itself (and the PS4 devkit after the official release), the design of the PS2 devkit and the console itself where registered at the exact same date - also the priority date is exaclty the same.

So, summarized after seeing all of these facts I came to the solution it could be quite possible the PS5 devkit shows the final console design in any way. Furthermore the devkits of the PS2, PS3 and PS4 where monsters compared with the final products. After we still saw some PS4 Controllers near to the PS5 devkit the devkit is definitely smaller than any of the previous ones.

Logically it could just be Sony goes another way for the actual console generation, registiered the devkit earlier and the final console will have a complete other design - or I did a mistake on my search.

Nice post.

Not having to download to play a game. Or download while streaming. Simple things. Streaming isn't just not having a console.

None of the things you mention require any deeper platform level integration. PS Now does all that already.

Streaming in next-gen consoles is essentially a thin client app. I don't think there's anything more revolutionary on the streaming side that will be effected by streaming on next-gen hardware.

The big benefits of streaming as I said are not needing local hardware at all, plus the possibility of leveraging greater-than-local-hardware performance per user.

More CUs = More heat + lower yields + more silicon used per chip + more wasted silicon on the wafer = more expensive.

You have a BOM goal and the vision of the console and you do the best you can with that in mind.

Incidentally, everyone forgets that faster clocks also reduces manufacturing yields.

Outside of dies rejected on the basis of silicon defects, not every die coming off the line will meet the target clockspeed at or below the requisite target voltage threshold.

It's the biggest reason why I don't believe a 36CU @ 2GHz console APU is realistic.

We really don't know what is possible. The 5500 uses a single SE for 24 CUs (22 enabled), so who knows what is possible. If the 5800 is ~60 CU (just a guess because the 56 CUs that are probably in the XSX), then it might have the exact same 2 SEs as the 5700, it might have bigger SEs but still just 2, it might have 3 similar SEs and it can also have 4 smaller SEs. We just don't know and I think it will take a few months until we do. We might even see the XSX or PS5 or both before we see the 5800 or 5900 considering GPUs are usually announced just weeks before release.

I dunno. From the RDNA whitepaper it sounds pretty cut and dry. The functional blocks in the SE front end can have their quantities scaled for larger WGP counts per SA or larger SAs per SE.

It's why i'm expecting big Navi to still remain with 2x SEs, but just increase the SA count per SE and scale the number of geometry processors, ACEs, beef up the command processor etc in the SE front end.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
It's possible this is true and simultaneously it has the highest cost and power for such components. Sign of the times.
That leaves the XSX with presumably a 33% larger chip than the PS5, which is quite a bit of real estate.

We should also consider some space for the RT hw too. So size in itself isn't necessarily a good starting point imo.
RN, it appears that RT hardware will not significantly increase the size due to AMD solution. I think Liabe Brave has some good estimations, maybe they can chime in.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
I dunno. From the RDNA whitepaper it sounds pretty cut and dry. The functional blocks in the SE front end can have their quantities scaled for larger WGP counts per SA or larger SAs per SE.

It's why i'm expecting big Navi to still remain with 2x SEs, but just increase the SA count per SE and scale the number of geometry processors, ACEs, beef up the command processor etc in the SE front end.
You would think so. I'm very interested to see how it scales. At some point, it may make sense to go faster rather than wider without changing the architecture.

That leaves the XSX with presumably a 33% larger chip than the PS5, which is quite a bit of real estate.
Indeed. It begins to make sense to spend more on the cooler in that case. Your die could easily be $30+ more expensive.
 
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III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
It's still kinda useless from the point of view of the interested watcher.
It was not useless - don't forget that they actually confirmed (yes, confirmed) the "expensive" cooling solution, admitting that they have further details. But the important part is that this portion of the article was indeed accurate.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
It was not useless - don't forget that they actually confirmed (yes, confirmed) the "expensive" cooling solution, admitting that they have further details. But the important part is that this portion of the article was indeed accurate.

I dunno "it's supposed to be expensive though" i took both meanings, 1 it's a deliberate choice by Sony. 2 it's supposed to be, as in he doesn't actually have proof. i'd still prefer to actually know what is inside the box, even if it's a loose description of the type of cooling.
 

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
And people wonder why anyone with an industry or journalist background doesn't want to post in this thread.
I myself find it a bit suspect that the Bloomberg article mentions certain things that qualls our fear somewhat, regarding cooliing especially. My pro sounds like a Learjet at 100% power 99% of the time. In the same vein, saying controlled leaks does not happen can never be representative of reality. Im merely saying it has always happend, and it will continue to happen. And the Bloomberg article could very well be it from Sony.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,240
Europe
I dunno "it's supposed to be expensive though" i took both meanings, 1 it's a deliberate choice by Sony. 2 it's supposed to be, as in he doesn't actually have proof. i'd still prefer to actually know what is inside the box, even if it's a loose description of the type.
Expensive is relative... a few dollars is considered expensive in a total BOM.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
I dunno "it's supposed to be expensive though" i took both meanings, 1 it's a deliberate choice by Sony. 2 it's supposed to be, as in he doesn't actually have proof. i'd still prefer to actually know what is inside the box.
I think that the intent is that we have confirmation of a bespoke cooling system.
Why are you using 2 operations per clock? 4 operations gets you to 12TF.
48CU clocked at 1.8GHz will be 11.06TF
Not over 12
We are not at quantum computing levels yet :)
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
Expensive is relative... a few dollars is considered expensive in a total BOM.

Yeah, i know that, and what he said is fine for the people who like writing essays about their imaginary consoles etc, and i'm not knocking anyone or them. I would just like to get a bit further than the Platonic ideal form of a PS5 and get some meat on the bones.

I still enjoy reading the speculation, i'm just a bit frustrated by the inability to nail anything down.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
That's interesting if true. It's either more advanced than Nvidia's solution or more simpler. I hope for the former, but I fear it's the latter.

I've heard from Coders that have worked with it that NVidia's RT API is quite bloated.


If that's true, that should be good news for everyone - NVidia can refine and provide more performance over time on the same hardware, whilst (hopefully) AMD have a strong starting point with RT if they can achieve similar results without dedicated hardware and / or less available performance.
 

Deleted member 12635

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Oct 27, 2017
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We really don't know what is possible. The 5500 uses a single SE for 24 CUs (22 enabled), so who knows what is possible. If the 5800 is ~60 CU (just a guess because the 56 CUs that are probably in the XSX), then it might have the exact same 2 SEs as the 5700, it might have bigger SEs but still just 2, it might have 3 similar SEs and it can also have 4 smaller SEs. We just don't know and I think it will take a few months until we do. We might even see the XSX or PS5 or both before we see the 5800 or 5900 considering GPUs are usually announced just weeks before release.
If we ever know that. The only way we will know is that for example Sony or MS will present their design at Hotchips. I know MS has presented their silicon there, but has Sony too? Can anybody help out with the info if Sony did?
 
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Dec 10, 2019
298
I realize that leaks are leaks, but I'm still waiting on ONE where a developer is saying the XSX is a much more powerful machine.
Why? It's just a bad statement.
You don't need to compare P5 and Series X to know how powerful each console is. And you need to know both console specs.

I just wait for the first developer or insider who says us how much more powerful P5 is compared to Ps4 or Ps4 Pro.
The stuff that is really important for the developers using and building games for the platform or Sony when they designed the Ps5.
That is a statement I would trust.

Not some stupid "I heard Series X is more powerful than Ps5" or vice versa
 

Silencerx98

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
My remarks was not really to shit on Unity or Dreams TBH. Both have their place... but my experience as a games programmer has taught me that, the higher level the engine, the less chance you have of building a "masterpiece".

I think projects like Dreams are great to entice/stimulate/inspire people to create games and I am sure some pretty cool stuff will come out of it.
Ah, so you're a fellow game programmer too. While I do think you have a point to a degree, it's also important to remember that without Unity and Unreal, many people wouldn't even be able to get into game development today. These free and easy to use engines have provided the opportunity to make a simple prototype and hone your skills as time goes on. Their flexibility also pretty much allow you to create whatever you want, although with obvious bottlenecks and optimization issues. Still, I'd rather this than a highly specialized engine being free to use. Can you imagine if Frostbite was free? Most people would only make shooters because the engine was specifically coded to be heavily optimized for this kind of games. I remember reading the Kotaku article even how the Anthem team struggled to code basic functions like a save system in.

I remember hearing that one of the reasons for Unity's bad reputation among gamers is due to a policy of letting devs use it for free, but they have to advertise it as being on Unity to promote the engine. With the result that all the low-budget (and so frequently less good) have the engine name emblazoned on them, while high-budget (and often higher-quality) games made on Unity never let you know it.
This is very much true. You can buy art assets on the Unity store, simply cobble together a working prototype that's probably buggy as shit in 3-4 days or maybe a week and sell it for a quick $5 or so.

The order 1886 with the werewolf was not bad.


Yep, this was very impressive. Really hope we get to see more onscreen transformations. It feels a lot more threatening when your adversary suddenly just changes form before a fight
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,581
One thing I'd like to see if next gen consoles can improve upon are onscreen transformations. The way I understand it, this is incredibly hard to do in real time because of mesh deformation and stretching. So most games hide transformations by panning the camera away and swapping models where the player can't see. It often works well, but it's still a smart technique to overcome a technical limitation. It'd be nice to see transformations like this again but in infinitely greater fidelity. The remake only had a brief onscreen transformation with G2. The other forms were all mutated offscreen.
r1UhkO.gif

That is not a limitation anymore. It uses shape blending and any transformation can happen. The Samaritan demo used it for the transformartion and this stuff was an integral part of the UE4 system.
It just not a single game had situations where this would be used. Only the Order 1886 offered real time transformation because the settings forced that.
 

dgrdsv

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Oct 25, 2017
11,850
I've heard from Coders that have worked with it that NVidia's RT API is quite bloated.
You mean, DXR? It's not NV's RT API, it's Microsoft's. And NV's VKRay is basically a copy of DXR in functionality at the moment.

If that's true, that should be good news for everyone - NVidia can refine and provide more performance over time on the same hardware, whilst (hopefully) AMD have a strong starting point with RT if they can achieve similar results without dedicated hardware and / or less available performance.
None of this will happen.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
10,682
Why? It's just a bad statement.
You don't need to compare P5 and Series X to know how powerful each console is. And you need to know both console specs.

I just wait for the first developer or insider who says us how much more powerful P5 is compared to Ps4 or Ps4 Pro.
The stuff that is really important for the developers using and building games for the platform or Sony when they designed the Ps5.
That is a statement I would trust.

Not some stupid "I heard Series X is more powerful than Ps5" or vice versa

So is comparing two products of two diferent companies that are meant for the same purpose now a bad thing?
Am i some kind of "warrior" if i compare two different companies?
 

PLASTICA-MAN

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Oct 26, 2017
23,581
Don't know if it was mentioned by Gamers Nexus seems to have some insider info on the PS5's cooling but can't talk about it yet

17:45


Why would he say he had infos but couldn't talk about it then? He shouldn't have said that from the start. He mostlyknows just like us or Bloomberg that cooling system is expensive and that is all.
 

Godzilla24

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Nov 12, 2017
3,371
The messaging they choose to employ can absolutely be a reason. People like Phil Spencer choose their words very carefully, and when you hear something like "do the math" more than once, it suggests a calibrated message. A simple understanding of how marketing functions (and has functioned for them in the recent past), combined with all of the various "leaks" we have now pointing in the same direction, would seem to make it a pretty simple extrapolation that the ~12TF number is probably accurate.

You don't seem to disagree with the conclusion, only on whether the PR wording they are using is meaningful or not, so I don't really get the need for the initial condescension. I was attempting to look at this from a different angle than the usual poring over limited "insider" accounts.



1) That isn't all I said. I said both that Microsoft seem to value the "performance crown" more than Sony do (Spencer literally saying at E3 2017 that the One X was driven by an old internal Xbox adage that "there's no power greater than X"), and that potentially having a "mass market" alternative in Lockhart would free the Series X up to be a more enthusiast product with a more enthusiast price. Neither point has anything to do with resources - it has to do with priorities, and strategy. I'm sure Sony could offer a 20TF console, if they thought people would pay the exorbitant price it would inevitably cost.

2) There are any number of reasons Spencer wouldn't come out with a statement to the effect of "most powerful console" period, when Sony haven't even discussed specific specs. For one, they may simply not have perfect information on the state of Sony's silicon, and didn't want to needlessly go out on a limb and tip their own hand a year before the boxes are even for sale (potentially embarrassing themselves). For two, Spencer seems to value having a positive working relationship with Sony and Nintendo, so trying to embarrass Sony at the VGAs with what would essentially be information gleaned from corporate espionage at the time, may be a bridge he didn't wish to cross. And then there's the fact that Microsoft themselves haven't released actual specs yet either.

I'm not pretending like I know anything. Just trying to offer a slightly different angle on the usual speculation in the speculation thread.
You said and explained it better than most.
 

anexanhume

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Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Then he wouldn't have bragged off to know stuff he couldn't tell and could have kept it for his inner mind. I have seen enough of clickbait videos tbh.
You're off your rocker if you think GN is clickbait. GN painstakingly provides disclosure statements, avoids sensationalism, is selective with their advertisers, and outright refuses to run sponsored content or reviews. He only addressed specifically because another news outlet ran the story. It wasn't in the title or even the show notes.
 

PrimeRib

Member
Nov 16, 2017
261
GamersNexus is the real deal as far as PC industry tech and hardware analysis. I watched dozens of their case/cooler reviews before my recent build and spare no expense at calling out junk when they come across it. If Steve and co mentioned knowledge of the PS5 tech and inferred opinions about it's cooling efficiency, it's probably true.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,581
You're off your rocker if you think GN is clickbait. GN painstakingly provides disclosure statements, avoids sensationalism, is selective with their advertisers, and outright refuses to run sponsored content or reviews. He only addressed specifically because another news outlet ran the story. It wasn't in the title or even the show notes.

I don't know the source but like I said I have seen so many clickbait videos. If this source is not scam then it's good. I just said he shouldn't have said that from the start and should have kept it for the proper moment to announce it or explain it when he is allowed to.
I can't beart the stuff like: "Look, I knwo something but I can't tell you". "Then why you tell me that you know from the start if you won't tell me?" This is very nagging and worse than harmless teasing.
It's like someone telling you a secret and you expose that person to the whole world and tell them I know a secret about that person, so the whole world will start to speuclate everything from good to bad(and mostly bad), this woudl do more harm than good.
That is not wise imo.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,845
He can't talk about it yet, but at least he confirms it is supposed to be expensive.

But anyway gamersnexus is the real deal and not some random YouTuber.
He will only be able to talk about the cooling when he will do a teardown of the console ? Come on. Everybody will be able to talk about the cooling once they'll open the console.
 

Deleted member 12635

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GamersNexus is the real deal as far as PC industry tech and hardware analysis. I watched dozens of their case/cooler reviews before my recent build and spare no expense at calling out junk when they come across it. If Steve and co mentioned knowledge of the PS5 tech and inferred opinions about it's cooling efficiency, it's probably true.
Did they say something about it?
 
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