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PS5 and Xbox Series speculation |OT11| Cry Havoc and Let Slip the Dogs of War [NEW NEWS, NEW THREAD - CHECK OUT THE STAFF POST]
- Thread starter Transistor
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9tf does not suck, games made for 9tf or 12-14 would not look that different we talking less difference then pro vs 1x.
We don't play the performance-improvements-between-architecture game. Only raw TF. It's stern but fair.
The closer the heat sink material is to the heat source the more effective it is. Heat sinks don't evenly distribute the heat amongst all the fins. The fins at the base are much hotter than the fins furthest out. Taking half of the height of the heat sink and putting it on the bottom of the chip will increase the efficiency of the material. Heat pipes help the outside fins get more heat but not anywhere near 100% efficiency, and typically are made out of copper which can be expensive.
I'm not sure if it helps, but according to wikipedia
the PS3 RSX GPU had 400.4 GFLOPS and
the XBOX360 XENOS GPU had 240 GFLOPS
So, ....
no clue what i even try to say ;-)
EDIT:
wikipedia seems to have some wrong numbers for the RSX, on the specific RSX site they tell about 192 GFLOPS.
Which seems to be more believable.
That post is now even more worthless.
the PS3 RSX GPU had 400.4 GFLOPS and
the XBOX360 XENOS GPU had 240 GFLOPS
So, ....
no clue what i even try to say ;-)
EDIT:
wikipedia seems to have some wrong numbers for the RSX, on the specific RSX site they tell about 192 GFLOPS.
Which seems to be more believable.
That post is now even more worthless.
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That was in reference to PS4 games. A graphical leap for PS5 is expected along with native 4K.
A 9 TF machine sounds good for a 399 priced machine but, we now know PS5 BOM is at least 450 dollars, so you're not getting a 9 TF machine.
So then that lends more credence to the idea 9 on new architecture doesn't suck no?
PS2's profits were lower because in 2020 you make a lot more money from the same size user base. Today Sony gets twice the revenue from a digital game than a physical copy and billions from DLC and subscriptions, it changes the revenue stream. PS2 was very profitable, don't confuse that with Sony not even trying or caring about profit just because PS4 is making a lot more money. I would actually argue the opposite, in 2020 it's much easier for Sony to lose money per console sold than in 2000. If Sony needs to sell a 450$ BOM PS5 for 399$, they will sell it for 399$.
If we assume PS5 will have a more expensive SSD solution (and this forum assumes a more powerful ARM processor for decompression and an ESRAM pool) then we are assuming the XSX has a higher BOM mark while at the same time having a cheaper SSD, which widens the theoretical gap in other areas of the console, like the APU for example.
9 tflops - kfc chicken. greasy trash tier tasteless chicken
11 tflops - chick fila. decent chicken but you feel bad eating it
13 tflops - popeyes chicken. worth the heartburn and cholesterol issues.
I don't believe they would be.
Again, there is precedent for this. MS has a history and of using the best of the shelf stuff they can use. there is nothing wrong with this. It's a sound straightforward strategy. Sony has however shown that they are more likely to tinker with things and be a little more conservative. Maybe it's a culture thing, idk.
MS is more likely to make a 400mm2 APU, pack-in 20-24GB of GDDR6 and the best off the shelf SSD they can get their hands on. This is not a bad thing. Sony, on the other hand, is more likely to try and do more with less. To accomplish that would mean they invest more in everything else except the APU. That they try and be smarter about things. So they could end up with less RAMut more bandwidth. A smaller APU but a higher clocked GPU. A different but faster type of SSD.
None of this means MS is stupid, or sony is smart... just means that both companies went about designing their consoles in very different ways. And fo very different reasons. And everything I have said could still end up with them being priced similarly.
This has been quoted out of context so often it has lost all meaning. The whole point was that ~8TF is required to match the level of visuals games achieve on the PS4 at 1080p. If games on the PS5 look exactly like PS4 games just running at a native 4K I would indeed be disappointed.
When a device is dissipating heat, there are multiple traversal options: vertical or lateral. The vast, vast majority actually moves down vertically through the semiconductor material. Semiconductors typically have much better thermal conductivity than passivation layers above (dielectrics).
The fact that this chip is then surface mounted to a dielectric layer (PCB) doesn't change this fact. If the design facilitates cooling through the PCB, in the form of metal vias and a large metal fixture, this is a great, effective method for thermal management.
in the case of a certain application, let's say cellular base station PA, where the transistors are dissipating hundreds or thousands of watts in highly modulated signals GaN HEMT technology is often used. When creating the GaN devices, the GaN device and base layer sits on top of a foreign substrate, often SiC, which has a very high (one of the highest among SC technology) thermal conductivity. Often times, the wafer is thinned to 2-4 mils and will be mounted to a heat sink (ie metal). Little concern, if any, is ever given to heat dissipation from the top.
And thermal management is considered at a top priority as it is directly related to reliability and therefore deployment cost and adoption.
TLDR: it makes sense to focus on removing heat from the underside of the device
After puking from bad chicken for the last two days, this post made me nauseated.
Well this very thread has plenty of folk choosing not to accept Bloomberg so we sure the BOM is $450?
Vegan unfriendly comparisons here.
9 tflops - dunkin donuts/mcdonalds trashy lattes
11 tflops - making a latte yourself
13 tflops - going to a local coffee shoppe and getting the best darn latte evar
Highlighting this!
We're not 100% sure ofc but, Zhuge did said he expected a minimum of 450 and I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
We'll find out in a couple of weeks.
User warned: Platform warring
Are we heading towards another 10 page argument where xbox fans defend the idea of a 9tf console being "enough"?
I was just providing clarification.
Like this, for example.
I dint see a price war coming - if either side undercut the other by a significant amount, the other side would be forced to match. And they just know that. So it just hurts the bottom line if everyone.
so they make take small losses to get to eg $499 or a round number. But if both are expensive $499 consoles I think they'll both be ok competing at that price point rather than killing each other.
consumer demand notwithstanding- if that drops after 6-12 months then so will the price
so they make take small losses to get to eg $499 or a round number. But if both are expensive $499 consoles I think they'll both be ok competing at that price point rather than killing each other.
consumer demand notwithstanding- if that drops after 6-12 months then so will the price
Why wouldn't it be enough? Assuming this console will hopefully be 400$
Seems pretty silly to spend time and money on this fancy double sided cooling when they could of done the painfully obvious thing of just making the box bigger like MS did.
MS seem to have a first principles design approach, where they just did the most simple and obvious thing.
MS seem to have a first principles design approach, where they just did the most simple and obvious thing.
According to the RSX entry on wikipedia, it had 192 GFLOPS.
RSX Reality Synthesizer - Wikipedia
Bigger boxes don't mean better cooling. A well-designed cooling system is how you go from the original Xbox One to the Xbox One S, smaller chips and doodads aside.
Given some of the stuff that's been allowed to fester in these threads of late, this seems like something on the more minor end of the scale. So sure, why not?
I think you're assuming a lot. DRAM-less SSD typically store the translation address table in flash. Since MS is using an off the shelf controller I think it's likely doing the same.
You can't just shunt off the entire OS memory footprint to slow memory. The OS provides services the game needs on demand access to. You have to have it running in your fast memory.
According to the RSX entry on wikipedia, it had 192 GFLOPS.
RSX Reality Synthesizer - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
According to the ps3 technical specifications entry on wikipedia, it had 400.4 GFLOPS
PlayStation 3 technical specifications - Wikipedia
But actually that number form the RSX entry makes more sense.
Damn, you can't even believe wikipedia anymore.
Then why make the XsX into a mini tower thicker then any console ever?
The extra thickness would allow for a taller heatsink, I don't know if a thicker heatsink is better then a thinner one but with more surface area?
So it can be quiet/silent. Just like the xbox one (original) was quiet but it was bigger than PS4 which sounds like a jet engine (at least the original model).
AMD navi cards (5700XT and such) also come with vapor chamber to help cooling, both consoles will have them too. But I expect XSX to be more quiet no doubt.
According to the ps3 technical specifications entry on wikipedia, it had 400.4 GFLOPS
PlayStation 3 technical specifications - Wikipedia
But actually that number form the RSX entry makes more sense.
Damn, you can't even believe wikipedia anymore.
what precision?
That is something I can't answer until we open up the XsX for ourselves ^.^
But you can take a look at plenty of laptops and desktops that are out there and on sale for good examples of good cooling systems w/out compromising form factor.
It's probably cheaper? But i wonder how would a console of such size will be received by the mainstream market.
This is an enthusiast forum, so power, price and form factor are valued differently from people that buy consoles for Fornite or annual Fifa or cod.
People here ask for specs that may mean problems to reach wide audiences.
Sorry, i don't understand.
English is not my first language.
Silence was not a big design goal of the sxs, and they have said its about the same noise level as an 1x which is worse the OG X1 (well my 4 X1X's are!).
Phil said to the hardware team that power and performance was the goal of the XsX, to design a box dictated by this goal, that goal took precedence over everything else (apart from BOM limit)
It's still a design goal or else everyone would be playing on vacuum cleaners.
He asked what precision the flops where measured in!
FP16 Half Precision
FP32 Single Precision
or FP64 Double Precision
People who are put off by the size of the XsX will likely be the sort of people happy with a 1080p lockhart.
However the XsX's is not that big, I would not be surprised if the total volume of the ps5 + XsX is not that different. I don't think the mainstream care to much about console size, the XsX will look smaller then OG X1.
yes and no
if Github is correct for PS5 that means they're pushing higher freqs which means worse yields.
Xbox is supposedly pushing lower freqs while potentially binning their APUS (Cloud/XSX/XSS) which means they could have way better yields.
There is a chance that despite performance disparity, the parts would cost roughly the same in the end if MS is going that route and the github leak is correct.
But there's a lot of assumptions there. Github being right is the first, Lockhart existing is another as well as binning.
Ok so I think to can help this Tflop conversation along. Here's an article explaining how different Tflops do not translate into real world performance. Showing a nearly 13Tflop Vega 64 GCN, being beat out in real world performance by 8 and 9 Tflop GPUs.
www.extremetech.com
Next we have a direct comparison of a 12.7Tflop GCN gpu getting spanked by a 9Tflop RDNA gpu. Hopefully this will help the Number guys understand that raw size doesn't matter as much as how you use them.
RTX 2080 vs. Radeon VII vs. 5700 XT: Rendering and Compute Performance [Updated]
How do the AMD Radeon VII, Nvidia RTX 2080, and AMD's RDNA-based Radeon RX 5700 XT compare in professional applications? We take these solutions for a spin, with a particular examination of the new Blender version, 2.80.
www.extremetech.com
Next we have a direct comparison of a 12.7Tflop GCN gpu getting spanked by a 9Tflop RDNA gpu. Hopefully this will help the Number guys understand that raw size doesn't matter as much as how you use them.
I don't think they make fans as loud as vaccum cleaners, if the XsX is a quiet console it will be because of the talent of the design team not because it was a goal of high priority, Phil said "make the box as powerful as can and do what you need to do", this goal does contradict the goal of making a silent console.
Thank you for the explanation but ehm somehow i feel like you are talking down to me....
First of language barrier. So yes i meant better than more. 2nd yes i know the ps4/pro uses lpddr3.
400Mhz+C PU clock advantage can absolutely make a difference when you are stressing a system. Same with the GPU. Ever tried working with a stressed system?
The rest i agree with and makes sense.
Edit: Ignore this post for today....i've been drinking and ill fix it tomorrow
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If Lockhart doesn't exist the XSX would be crazy expensive at 56 CUs.
Oh, ok
Thanks
I would say FP32.
But actually it doesn't matter, i just tried to show that their is more to look at then the TFLOP but shot myself in the knee.
I honestly think it's the right play to make to do Lockhart. At least economically speaking. It's just smart planning.
it would honestly make sense why Lockhart seems to be fairly fluid in terms of where perf is expected to land... at first it was 4 TF and then it was possibly as high as 6 or 7 TF... which could be an indication of yields
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