That's fine. It doesn't provide clarification to the comment I was making though.
Going by hmqgg, retail GPU may match the current version of Dante, but that doesn't mean this GPU was in the first version of the devkit back in April.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Thats why I said, "for what it is worth". Both discussion correlate to April 2019, so there is a good chance, but not necessarily fact.
It just allows re-mapping on PS4, but that doesn't mean the Playstation/DS4 don't or can't recognize it as another button. For all we know it can get updated via communicating with the PS4 via the DS bluetooth, which could automatically happen when you connect to a PS5.
Gonzalo chips were in qualifying stage according to DF and Apisak when they found the second leak in early april. Richard said they are pretty much ready for production. Again, its just a devkit chip. It's still in R&D. Sony and MS are clearly codeveloping their chips right alongside AMD. Do you really believe that AMD only just got RT to work a month before launch? Gonzalo's first cheap was leaked way back in January.
I mean by this logic, if the RT GPUs from AMD release at CES then Sony and MS devs will have 1-2 months to get RT incorporated into their games for the reveals. its utterly ridiculous to expect that the 5700xt has anything to do with the gpu in the PS5 devkit.
Also, Kleegamefan saw a game running on the ps5 devkit with RT around E3.
It's to be expected. This is a very critical generation and I'm sure Sony wants to make sure everything is tight. It's actually a bit surprising we have so much information about the Xbox when we were getting daily leaks about Orbis in 2012 lol.
I think that's more or less what that patent application is getting at.
Anyway, it's highly speculative. I just took this paragraph from the application:
Wondered how a chip sandwiched between two heat conductive plates like that, with two attached heatsinks, might look - and wondered if it could fit or make sense of the 'V' design, with it's possibility of 2 distinct airflows. Mixing those two things together is probably the speculative equivalent of 2+2=5, but a fun thought.
You're not hallucinating, few minutes after dropping the 8GB bomb, Cerny would confirm that it's GDDR5 and he also spoke about GPU computing power being 'nearly 2 TFs'.
Since I'm getting deluged with mentions (yay!) I'll take the time to rewrite what I was trying to say, since my message didn't land the way I intended.
All I was trying to highlight was that you often run with your own strategy you plan out well in advance, you don't just knee jerk react to competitors. That's on me for writing from my phone in public transit though, so I'll completely take the L on that since even on rereading my post has some flaws that I could have better corrected for.
It's not, not even close.
I didn't mean flawed as in there's something wrong with the product, I mean flawed because every product has weaknesses and you always want to soften those weaknesses and play up your strengths. It was not making a judgement that the Xbox is weaker (I don't know if it is, nor do I care) but rather one of general strategy.
No, I mentioned that there is way more than 4, those were just the 4 I went with because I was trying to highlight some of the reasons, generally the most common ones (in my view) why you'd want to go first. It's not a rule and there are millions of exceptions, I will never deny that :)
What Sony did the with PS4 is also highly accurate to this situation, but even then they didn't do any "reacting" to the competition at the reveal, they reacted at E3 by rehighlighting points of strength. The most you can say they reacted was the whole used games video they did, but that was more a rake Microsoft stepped into, one I can't imagine either side doing this time.
So back to what the point of my original point of my post was supposed to be: Microsoft likely has their strategy laid out and has for awhile, and to me the reasons why they went at the Game Awards was the C I outlined: it made sense to go then to get people who don't pay attention to their brand to start paying attention. And if that was the intention, it worked fantastic.
There are many other reasons, yes, but I feel that the best boon for them was that, followed by getting to lay claim to some of the key marketing buzzwords that'll be used this gen.
None of my points aside from A were to be interpreted as negatives by the way, and even A wasn't really a giant negative. Like I said, every product has "flaws", it's not a bad thing, and companies always want to highlight strengths and play down weaknesses.
I honestly don't care which one ends up with more computational power, that doesn't factor into my purchase decision in the end.
All I was trying to highlight was that you often run with your own strategy you plan out well in advance, you don't just knee jerk react to competitors. That's on me for writing from my phone in public transit though, so I'll completely take the L on that since even on rereading my post has some flaws that I could have better corrected for.
It's not, not even close.
I didn't mean flawed as in there's something wrong with the product, I mean flawed because every product has weaknesses and you always want to soften those weaknesses and play up your strengths. It was not making a judgement that the Xbox is weaker (I don't know if it is, nor do I care) but rather one of general strategy.
No, I mentioned that there is way more than 4, those were just the 4 I went with because I was trying to highlight some of the reasons, generally the most common ones (in my view) why you'd want to go first. It's not a rule and there are millions of exceptions, I will never deny that :)
What Sony did the with PS4 is also highly accurate to this situation, but even then they didn't do any "reacting" to the competition at the reveal, they reacted at E3 by rehighlighting points of strength. The most you can say they reacted was the whole used games video they did, but that was more a rake Microsoft stepped into, one I can't imagine either side doing this time.
So back to what the point of my original point of my post was supposed to be: Microsoft likely has their strategy laid out and has for awhile, and to me the reasons why they went at the Game Awards was the C I outlined: it made sense to go then to get people who don't pay attention to their brand to start paying attention. And if that was the intention, it worked fantastic.
There are many other reasons, yes, but I feel that the best boon for them was that, followed by getting to lay claim to some of the key marketing buzzwords that'll be used this gen.
None of my points aside from A were to be interpreted as negatives by the way, and even A wasn't really a giant negative. Like I said, every product has "flaws", it's not a bad thing, and companies always want to highlight strengths and play down weaknesses.
I honestly don't care which one ends up with more computational power, that doesn't factor into my purchase decision in the end.
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Stuff will always get used for marketing even if it don't matter much.
You can already see in this thread how so many care about the most powerful system even if it won't have any effect on games.
If MS has the most powerful system they will say it .
If Sony has the faster loading system even if it a sec longer for MS they will say it.
my work laptop has an ssd and there is clearly something up with Excel. i dont get 15 second load times, but Excel spreadsheets and MS word tabs are very poorly optimised. i get random locks where it just spins and spins for a good 5-10 seconds especially when opening new files while you have existing MS word and Excel windows open.
im pretty sure its a bug rather than a ssd limitation. im guessing he chose that example to stick it to MS lol
i still think he is going with ReRam instead of a super fast and super expensive SSD. Especially if MS is only going with 2GBps. Consoles dont need 4-5GBps when they can save money and go with more storage for the same price.
Just to add to this. PS4 Pro had ID Buffer and fp16 in a final spec dev kit in December 2015. Those features I believe didn't appear until Vega dGPUs in August 2017? Granted RT might be a more substantial feature, I don't know TBH.
That's pretty ironic coming from you.
I was thinking plates with heatpipes, connected to a heat sink on either side.
Sort of like this:
Like these boys:
Of course it's probably nothing like this, and I guess there are other reasons something like this wouldn't work, but fun to think about. Even if it could work I imagine it would be expensive.
The underside of the PCB almost never needs cooling. Look at all the newer GPUs with back plates, they're not functional. Just a few thermal pads here and there for contact would be beneficial IF those benefits were meaningful. It makes a bit mores sense as the patent suggests top and bottom plates are connected, it's still odd to me unless sony plans on utilizing the bottom of the pcb for something, like ram, for example.
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Interesting post from b3d by AbsoluteBeginner. Anyone care to chime in about the "smarts" of this design?
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Given the nature of your work, it was interesting to hear how big corporations form their strategy and push their message knowing pros and cons of their product this early on. Your post was fine, some folks on here are too brittle about their favorite plastic box. So any message with even slightly negative connotation is seen as a personal attack. Just ignore them.
Even I rolled my eyes at that, haha.
Im a man who generally looks for the simplist explanation to things, so my read on MS announcing at the game awards is that it was an opportune time to start the next gen hype train. Millions of eyes were on the show and it was a great opportunity to snatch the first "wow" moment of what next gen games will look like. To announce a game you need a box so they revealed the bare minimum without revealing too much. Beyond that, it was a chance to give the spotlight to Ninja Theory who have earned the right to be featured on a big stage.
If what I saw from Hellblade 2 is actually indicative of what we are getting with these new systems, I dont care which one is more powerful. Plus or minus TF isn't going to drastically change the landscape.
If what I saw from Hellblade 2 is actually indicative of what we are getting with these new systems, I dont care which one is more powerful. Plus or minus TF isn't going to drastically change the landscape.
I believe the idea in the patent is that you have a type of 'hole' through the pcb conducting heat from the chip on the top side of the pcb to the bottom. An array of these. So the idea is that you could put the heatsink on the bottom of the pcb instead of the top, or indeed, put a heatsink on both sides. Although the application does not suggest just how much heat could be passed from top to bottom in that way... but I presume it would have to be substantial enough to afford the idea of the heatsink going on the bottom side rather than the top. So I'm not sure that's the same as other setups with backplates (?)
The post review of all this is going to be fun, I wonder who will be the first to discuss where the original baseline of +10tf came from
Typically we do use "vias" for thermal conductance, that is common. Vias are metal filled holes, often used for ground between layers as well.
I'm just saying these may be fair assumptions to make, but it's all still anecdotal evidence. This is not something confirmed by Sony/MS. We don't have a properly sourced and vetted article. It is not a fact, and so should not be treated as such. Perhaps you think I'm being dense, I just place a high value on facts.
As far as timelines go, I wouldn't have been surprised if devkits didn't get RT capability till next year (doesn't appear to be the case this time). Look at prior gens. Xbox 360 devkits with x800 GPUs and dual core CPUs in spring 2005. Or Durango Devkits at E3 2013 with Intel and nVidia parts.
I think the development of the RDNA architecture, which includes the 5700xt, has a lot to do with the RDNA based PS5 GPU. If AMD could've gotten a retain GPU with RT in 2019, I think they would've.
Maybe not a part of the base DualShock 5 (based on the patents, etc.), but I could see them doing a more premium, integrated paddle solution by having their own version of the Elite for next-gen. I've been wanting something like that for quite a while.
You have to figure they'll do new first party headsets for the 3D audio integration, too. PS5 accessories might end up costing me more than the console, haha.
There's already ~$40 paddle attachment. It's been out for over 2 years now IIRC.
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Yep .
Don't fall for Cerny PR but trust what Phil is saying LMAO.
I think an official product with good build quality at 30 is a game changer. The elite controller and scufs are far too expensive.There's already ~$40 paddle attachment. It's been out for over 2 years now IIRC.
Collective Minds Strike Pack F.P.S. Dominator
Let's hold off on the good build quality. Still burnt from launch DS4's.
See, I have read multiple posts stating that Sony cannot afford to do both a custom RAM and custom SSD solution because of console cost price. Let me ask the question: why would a custom SSD like described in the patent be expensive?
The memory itself will be very similar to current SSDs and the XsX SSD. The custom solution would be in the hardware controller and software driver. The patent explains that there are two big optmisations possible:
- Focus on read speeds (for consoles write speed is not that important compared to PCs)
- Decompression in the ssd hardware with a custom chip (to reduce load on the CPU)
The costs for this solution would be in R&D, not actual component costs! R&D costs can be divided over every product sold, and looking at the PS4 sales, this means Sony can spend a big sum on R&D due to their enormous sales capacity. So I would state that I fully expect Sony to be able to offer a custom SSD solution for just a slight increase in actual part cost per console.
The underside of the PCB doesn't need cooling, the chip does! So if Sony manages to cool the chip from both the top AND underside, they could in theory double the cooling performance and this would explain how they can achieve the rumored 2GHz in a console. Many posters here scream that 2GHz is impossible to achieve in consoles but that's only because they consider these rumors from their current frame of reference (PS4 and XBO performance/cooling).
Only just noticed the shoulder buttons on the new Xbox controller are no longer glossy. Thank fuck! It's one of the things I hate most about the current pad.
Some people think custom mean expensive for some reason .
If they look at the patent and that is what Sony using you see all they doing is making SSD more suited for games.
Nothing that would drive the price up or make it more expensive .
They were even looking for ways to make it cheaper .
There's already ~$40 paddle attachment. It's been out for over 2 years now IIRC.
Collective Minds Strike Pack F.P.S. Dominator
Yeah I remember seeing that one when I was looking for something when I played Overwatch. Ended up not getting it because it was more expensive than I liked to import it and I wasn't sure if I would even like it in the first place. Also I never dealt with returning this kind of stuff when buying online so if the quality sucked it would probably be a pain in the ass compared to just returning faulty stuff in stores.
Since this one is from Sony I assume stores will have it and it's considerably cheaper which is great.
I feel almost certain they had precisely that, but just knew that then wasn't the time for them to be trying to make that release, especially when they were merely just launching their RDNA mid-range parts, and not their big high end parts yet. They decided to save improvements like hardware RT, VRUS and other architectural enhancements for their next major card launch.
Burnt by rubber coming off the thumbsticks? It's annoying sure, but $4 grips from amazon took care of the problem.
Yeah, that is trash. Also 2 began to stick. My later DS4 never had these problems.
Ah, well if it's common, and not very effective, it would throw a question over the cost-benefit of a scheme like this. There would need to be 'enough' throughput of heat to the other side to make all that worthwhile. I've no idea what could be expected on that front...(or what would be 'enough'). The tipping point could be different in a dev kit too.
Yes, this is the point. You're not cooling the back of the PCB. You're cooling the backside of the package which has memory die mounted to its underside. There's a physical hole or holes in the PCB you interface to.
The patent is open-ended. You could have a single cutout in the board to interface to. Then the packaged part sits over the cutout like a hut/igloo.
Made some renders on how the "dark tower" will look in a typical home setup
It's pretty big, won't fit in my TV stand so ill have to keep the console on the stand next to the TV, same like the switch
but the look is growing on me, it blends in pretty well with everything
You ScanDesign guys sure don't waste any time. Great job on this.
It's common because without them all the devices would be cooked. It's effective, and necessary, particularly at high frequency.
Idk how I forgot about this PS5 post from Sony.
Confirmed:
Confirmed:
- 8K resolution gaming
- Custom SSD (ReRAM??)
- Navi RDNA GPU
- 8C/16T Zen 2 CPU
Never had a controller fail on me until DualShock 4. I think I've had 3 or 4 with various problems, both new and old models. Really hope they get the build quality up to snuff for DualShock 5, or offer a premium controller SKU.
Yes. Many parts completely rely on heat conduction through the PCB and have packages that won't even conduct heat if you do direct cool them. This is common in many DC-DC converter parts.
This is crazy. team 14 tflops approves of this post.I was thinking plates with heatpipes, connected to a heat sink on either side.
Sort of like this:
Like these boys:
Of course it's probably nothing like this, and I guess there are other reasons something like this wouldn't work, but fun to think about. Even if it could work I imagine it would be expensive.
One question though. the heatsink is supposed to draw heat away from the apu right? if the bottom of the apu isnt getting hot then why do we need a heat sink for it?
this whole time i was thinking they had some kind of cooler sitting on top of the apu cooling it. i thought thats what a vapor chamber was. if sony is going with heat pipes, are we looking at a noisy console again?
The last 2 means one thing 7nm Apu and not 7nm+
So to delivery 12 tflops for the gpu we are looking for more than 250w only on gpu plus if it has a Zen 2 with 8c/16t @3.2ghz plus 48w plus ram, ssd, optic drive, usb.
So a 350w tdp console?
The main thing Sony has talked about since starting with next gen stuff has been the SSD.
But it is just PR and even if it is as good as they say, it won't make a difference.
Aight chiefs
But it is just PR and even if it is as good as they say, it won't make a difference.
Aight chiefs
The die is within a package, and the package is surface mounted to the PCB. Typically on the bottom, the largest area will be a thermally conducting sink. At that interface there will be an array of thermally (and electrically) conducting vias or "holes" or pipes that connect that to the heat sink at the bottom. From there, you can have various techniques for heat spreading. To have a sandwich of heat sinks, you need an atypical design, hence the patents.
No, not really, it doesn't. Maybe one day people will end up understanding that designs can be ported to other nodes and/or processes. I mean, Cell was brought down all the way from 90nm to, at very least, 45nm (and rumor has it down to 28 or 22nm).
It's probably N7P, but nothing has really ruled N7+ out so far.
Don't forget Klee also say the SSD is really fast and talk about it basically on lock down .
But of course that don't matter .
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