Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)

Deleted member 1589 · Dec 17, 2019

Dont be a dick and you wont get banned, that's it.

And yes, he might be mean to you first but all of you are big boys and girls now, and Im sure you can find it in yourselves to not be a dick too.

Deleted member 59519 · Dec 17, 2019

Opposing Lockhart is a console-warrior move. You are literally asking for a console to not exist, that's how much you hate it.

Deleted member 10747 · Dec 17, 2019

Samurai G0SU said:
it's happening here too. i guess im a console warrior that is hostile. perhaps i should end all of my comments with /s just to be safe lol
the last ban didnt even tell me which post got me banned lol plus plenty of people say waaayyyyyy worrrse hate filled vile, yet never banned because its an 'opinion of criticism', but my comments warrent as console warring. yikes!

/s because i need to be safe LOL and this will probably be reported by the person who keeps doing it to spite me

Banning messages don't disappear. So just look at your own posting history.

Jeffram · Dec 17, 2019

Miniature Kaiju said:
One of the big problems with current cooling setups it that localized heat can saturate the plate/spreader capacity to dissipate and transport it away from the die. So, no matter how good your cooling setup is, that becomes a bottleneck.

Now, if you're cooling things from both sides, you have more opportunities to wick away this heat before it bottlenecks.

There's also an advantage to having cooling material closer to the heat source. With typical cooling fins the ones furthest from the heat source are the least effective (diminishing returns), the fins below the die closer to the APU will be much more effective than the further away fins above the die.

rbej · Dec 17, 2019

Decade_2050 said:
So Far things seem to be fitting together.

If we assume that the April PS5 DEV kit Rumor of nearly 13TF for the PS5 was correct and now assume that the 12TF(at least) for XBSX is correct then this makes the gap Between 0 and 7% (<1TF) this fits with what Klee mentioned as to the PS5 being slightly faster . So 12 to 13 seems pretty reasonable

13 TF RDNA in April 2019 is IMPOSSIBLE. 13 TF GCN Yes. 13 TF RDNA No.

AegonSnake · Dec 17, 2019

Tonky said:
Opposing Lockhart is a console-warrior move. You are literally asking for a console to not exist, that's how much you hate it.

pretty sure trolling is bannable.

i find your posts amusing but be careful. you dont know who is out there reporting your every post. lol

rbej said:
13 TF RDNA in April 2019 is IMPOSSIBLE.

what happened in April 2019? did sony engineers go on a tflops strike?

Mass Nerder · Dec 17, 2019

III-V said:
You probably got banned for baiting people with SonyGAF (like you just did) and to be honest most of the time you drop in this thread it's only to grief some people. Would not hurt to see a bit more effort out of your posts.

Effort? But I'm tired.

(But seriously, at one point in time I swear 70% of the users there had Spiderman avatars. LOL)

Deleted member 62028 · Dec 17, 2019

What you need to hit 12TF

Yearsoflurking · Dec 17, 2019

III-V said:
I know people are/were critical of the bans but there wasn't anything better than a Bish graveyard.

Speak for yourself bias mods<<<<<

VX1 · Dec 17, 2019

gaffertape said:
What you need to hit 12TF

So, 38CU at 2.5GHz ? ;)

asd202 · Dec 17, 2019

rbej · Dec 17, 2019

AegonSnake said:
pretty sure trolling is bannable.

i find your posts amusing but be careful. you dont know who is out there reporting your every post. lol

what happened in April 2019? did sony engineers go on a tflops strike?

June 2019 - Radeon 5700 XT 9.75 TF RDNA
April 2019 - PS5 Devikit 13 TF RDNA (rumor)

13TF in April 2019??. YES. But no RDNA, only GCN.

III-V · Dec 17, 2019

Mass Nerder said:
(But seriously, at one point in time I swear 70% of the users there had Spiderman avatars. LOL)

Haha I will concede that point

senjutsusage · Dec 17, 2019

Miniature Kaiju said:
You're talking in pretty absolute terms for someone that neither knows the tech either console is packing and/nor has any clue about what is or isn't possible in terms of storage tech.

The magical bullet SSD isn't happening. There's a better chance of PS5 being 13-14TF than the stuff involving the SSD. I know this much, look at what devs accomplished with streaming large open worlds this gen. Every advantage that one side would have on SSD would never show if devs simply plan to best take advantage of what the SSD can do. Maybe one system's CPU may do more early work or heavy lifting to help prepare the scene, but it won't be so much that it's something visibly noticable to the gamer. Both sides will mask these things. So what we are left with is dev comments to wet our appetite about how easy things are, but it won't be shown outside of load times if there is much advantage even there.

CPU, GPU, RAM, and memory bandwidth I feel will again be difference makers. SSD I think will.be a wash between the two in real world results. If I'm wrong, happy to be proven wrong because I'll have both.

anexanhume · Dec 17, 2019

edit: nvm

Minthara · Dec 17, 2019

RF Switch said:
Do we still have insiders claiming the PS5 is going to be more powerful than series X? To me all signs are pointing towards Xbox having the slight edge but at a higher price point while Sony will be slightly weaker and cheaper. The sudden game awards drop and naming convention of Xbox also points towards a cheaper Xbox to undercut Sony. I just find it weird that people are expecting Sony to come out with a beast system while keeping a low price point which is clearly their goal.

No "signs" point to anything at this point in time. The Game Awards drop certainly does not point towards a cheaper Xbox either.

The reliable insiders here are still pointing towards a stronger PS5, or near equal systems. Anything else is fantasy.

Your post has no basis in product marketing reality.

Neither does the stupidity of secretly going with the approach they did so they can last minute upclock in case their competitors do, which I've seen brought up here.

mullah88 · Dec 17, 2019

I keep seeing people mention the paddle was not shown on the controller patent. The patent was only focused on the solid line

chris 1515 · Dec 17, 2019

senjutsusage said:
The magical bullet SSD isn't happening. There's a better chance of PS5 being 13-14TF than the stuff involving the SSD. I know this much, look at what devs accomplished with streaming large open worlds this gen. Every advantage that one side would have on SSD would never show if devs simply plan to best take advantage of what the SSD can do. Maybe one system's CPU may do more early work or heavy lifting to help prepare the scene, but it won't be so much that it's something visibly noticable to the gamer. Both sides will mask these things. So what we are left with is dev comments to wet our appetite about how easy things are, but it won't be shown outside of load times if there is much advantage even there.

CPU, GPU, RAM, and memory bandwidth I feel will again be difference makers. SSD I think will.be a wash between the two in real world results. If I'm wrong, happy to be proven wrong because I'll have both.

if the PS5 SSD is faster I expect games to load faster on PS5. For streaming in multiplatform games, it will made no difference at all.

AegonSnake · Dec 17, 2019

rbej said:
June 2019 - Radeon 5700 XT 9.75 TF RDNA
April 2019 - PS5 Devikit 13 TF RDNA

Please.....

June 2019 - Radeon 5700 XT No Hardware RT
April 2019 - PS5 Devkit Supports hardware RT

Impossible!

III-V · Dec 17, 2019

VX1 said:
So, 38CU at 2.5GHz ? ;)

rbej · Dec 17, 2019

AegonSnake said:
June 2019 - Radeon 5700 XT No Hardware RT
April 2019 - PS5 Devkit Supports hardware RT

Impossible!

Of course. AMD give Sony two months earlier, much more powerfull GPU than R5700XT (top AMD model)??. Good BS...i never believe in this....

Deleted member 62028 · Dec 17, 2019

anexanhume said:
Why is this a curve? It's a linear relationship.

Good question. I just copy / pasted it.
Must be, because the X and Y axis are not the same linear scale.

melodiousmowl · Dec 17, 2019

senjutsusage said:
The PlayStation 5 has no meaningful or worthwhile advantage over Xbox Series X in SSD performance that will have any major impact on games and the way they are built between the two systems. Even if PS5 has a speed advantage (don't believe it does) there it won't be enough of one for anybody to notice beyond a couple seconds faster load time. The CPU will handle the lion share of much of the behind the scenes work needed to have impressive persistent world's without much loading or visible pop in, GPU will play it's part and so will the SSD.

I notice a focus on this of late, but it has to finally be said I think that there is no conceivable way in which the PS5 SSD can be so much better than what's in Xbox series X that it will have a bigger impact on games and performance than the GPU, Cpu, memory amount and memory bandwidth speed. If there is one thing that will absolutely be a wash between the two systems it's the SSD.

I have zero inside information. Just my 2 cents.

i think people misread that patent, and to me the takeaway was "how do we optimize for random reads, which ssds are bad at without optimization,so we get multi-gb/sec on them vs 300-500b/s"

so, you do that with os / driver optimizations that really use nvme features (windows i believe still does not have good nvme drivers or any optimizations)

or you make a custom controller, along with os/driver optimizations

or you also add hardware decompression at the controller, etc

if you can get random reads from hundreds of mb/s on a sequential speed rated 3gb/s ssd up to say, 2gb/s, it will be a gigantic difference.

Hybrid Rainbow · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
No "signs" point to anything at this point in time. The Game Awards drop certainly does not point towards a cheaper Xbox either.

The reliable insiders here are still pointing towards a stronger PS5, or near equal systems. Anything else is fantasy.

Your post has no basis in product marketing reality. Neither does the stupidity of secretly going with the approach they did so they can last minute upclock in case their competitors do, which I've seen brought up here.

About time someone said this. Was getting seriously annoying.

Joystick · Dec 17, 2019

VanWinkle said:
Is the reason they look so low-res because the SCREENS are low-res, or is the game rendering at a much lower resolution than the screens? If it's the screens that are low-res, I have a hard time imagining myself using VR for next-gen (since Cerny already said current-gen PSVR will work on PS5). If it's just the game's rendering resolution being sub-native, then I'll be a little more excited.

It is mostly the rendering resolution. PS5 will have very good looking VR games despite using the same headset.

Bound for example has one of the best IQ and is representative of what most games could look like on PS5 with their more complex scenes and textures.

Deleted member 52190 · Dec 17, 2019

rbej said:
Of course. AMD give Sony two months earlier, much more powerfull GPU than R5700XT??. Good BS...i never believe in this....

You do understand the difference between a product sold to the public and another in development?

senjutsusage · Dec 17, 2019

chris 1515 said:
if the PS5 SSD is faster I expect games to load faster on PS5. For streaming in multiplatform games, it will made no difference at all.

Devs are excellent at hiding these things for streaming a game world. Because if all a faster SSD ends up amounting to is that PS5 loads up a game level in 5 seconds, and Series X does it in 10 or 12, will the extra 5 or 7 seconds wait really be that big a deal? I imagine for an SSD advantage, a big one, to show it itself it would need to do so in-game while you're playing in such a fashion that there is no way the same could be reproduced on Series X. So how will that come exactly? Spiderman moving at the speed he does throughout the game world? The best SSD on PC right now is likely capable of achieving that if the game is designed for it. Maybe it will be in far larger scale scripted destruction events that take place with amazing detail out into the distance while the player is moving?

Perhaps something like that if the PS5 SSD advantage is big enough could be such that it may not be possible in the same way on Series X, but even then I find that hard to believe because it all comes down to developer creativity and ideas. And this gen has demonstrated just how much can be possible with much weaker hardware.

VX1 · Dec 17, 2019

III-V said:

:P

anexanhume what sort of yields can we expect for something like this? ;)
And cooling solution?

rokkerkory · Dec 17, 2019

Goodness we are up over 13TF now? Next week will be 15TF for sure. :)

anexanhume · Dec 17, 2019

gaffertape said:
Good question. I just copy / pasted it.
Must be, because the X and Y axis are not the same linear scale.

No, it's right I goofed. It's a fixed product, so it's a geometric relationship. One factor must scale by the inverse or the other to maintain a fixed product.

VX1 said:
:P

anexanhume what sort of yields can we expect for something like this? ;)
And cooling solution?

SgtCaffran · Dec 17, 2019

melodiousmowl said:
i think people misread that patent, and to me the takeaway was "how do we optimize for random reads, which ssds are bad at without optimization,so we get multi-gb/sec on them vs 300-50b/s"

so, you do that with os / driver optimizations that really use nvme features (windows i believe still does not have good nvme drivers or any optimizations)

or you make a custom controller, along with os/driver optimizations

or you also add hardware decompression at the controller, etc

if you can get random reads from hundreds of mb/s on a sequential speed rated 3gb/s ssd up to say, 2gb/s, it will be a gigantic difference.

I think you're right! Didn't Cerny specifically mention read speeds in the wired interview? I've read on multiple occasions that the decompression actually takes quite a bit of useful CPU time but I have no clue how much this realistically is. I think a SSD optimised for read speeds and integrated decompression can actually greatly increase console performance, especially since all hardware will have this feature so you can fully take advantage of it.

Cerny said:
At the moment, Sony won't cop to exact details about the SSD—who makes it, whether it utilizes the new PCIe 4.0 standard—but Cerny claims that it has a raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs. That's not all. "The raw read speed is important," Cerny says, "but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them.

Minthara · Dec 17, 2019

Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

gofreak · Dec 17, 2019

anexanhume said:
You'll need to translate from Japanese. Google translate does ok.

https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2018216627&_cid=P12-K4A9X1-99808-1

Hmm.

I never really looked at that patent before.

But one suggestion in there is using two heatsinks. One connected on top, one on the bottom.

That made me think of the 'V' design. Since it seems to suggest the possibility of two separate airflows. Which would be sort of handy for two heatsinks... (I'm sort of ignoring potential cost here...in a dev kit, at least, though, that would be less of a concern I guess)

senjutsusage · Dec 17, 2019

rbej said:
13 TF RDNA in April 2019 is IMPOSSIBLE. 13 TF GCN Yes. 13 TF RDNA No.

I really don't think it is impossible. Devs and AMD partners will have access to these things far sooner than they go on sale to the public. So it isn't entirely unrealistic that they would have had access to something so powerful even around that time. Many things likely weren't final, but I don't think it's impossible.

Dokkaebi G0SU · Dec 17, 2019

Seshumaru said:
Banning messages don't disappear. So just look at your own posting history.

found it lol a harmless meme before i knew posting memes were bannable. lord have mercy... *spritz holy water over era servers*

Expy · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

I've already mentioned it before, if the machine is indeed weaker than PS5, then it's worse to unveil it after Sony. So the timeline doesn't change much, and I'm not exactly sure how this surprised Sony according to some people.

Morrigan · Dec 17, 2019

Official Staff Communication

Please avoid discussing posters, moderators, or your past bans, whether it's from other forums or this one. This is considered a derail and will be moderated as such if it continues. Thank you.

senjutsusage · Dec 17, 2019

SgtCaffran said:
I think you're right! Didn't Cerny specifically mention read speeds in the wired interview? I've read on multiple occasions that the decompression actually takes quite a bit of useful CPU time but I have no clue how much this realistically is. I think a SSD optimised for read speeds and integrated decompression can actually greatly increase console performance, especially since all hardware will have this feature so you can fully take advantage of it.

What he mentions about the bandwidth could simply come down to PCI-E 4.0. As it pertains to what Cerny says about I/O performance, even Phil says I/O has been improved like 40x on Series X compared to current gen systems so that they can more easily move everything around the system? Sounds like they may actually be doing much of the same thing, but I guess we'll have to see.

anexanhume · Dec 17, 2019

gofreak said:
Hmm.

I never really looked at that patent before.

But one suggestion in there is using two heatsinks. One connected on top, one on the bottom.

That made me think of the 'V' design. Since it seems to suggest the possibility of two separate airflows. Which would be sort of handy for two heatsinks... (I'm sort of ignoring potential cost here...in a dev kit, at least, though, that would be less of a concern I guess)

That would require a vertical PCB unless they had some really weird ducting.

Yearsoflurking · Dec 17, 2019

Mark cerny once called the ps4 pre release "super charged PC, that will create gains that no PC can " y'all really falling for PR with the SSD comments. Ps5 ssd won't be better than the Kingston or 970 pro, and quiet frankly it doesn't have to be.

Deep Friar · Dec 17, 2019

DukeBlueBall said:
PSA: Before we start to crosspost stuff, vfx_veteran is vetted on the old site. Different standards and all.

Ew.

Kreten · Dec 17, 2019

Rumpestump said:
That person is now banned for exactly the kind of thing I was calling him so it seems I was not exactly wrong or lied about it was I as you claimed.

Yeah I am also calling you a liar because you make shit up since the persons you said explained things and what he meant and I somehow ignored it never did. You have claimed this several times and now I am really tired of it and telling you the same thing over and over so I am CALLING you out since you think that is fine.

Once again show me these things you claim or you will get reported

First of all you are not calling me out, you are straight out insulting me.

Can you show proof that Colbert got banned for his opinions and not for that twitter meme he linked?

As for you simply skipping parts of the thread look at the post #590

I wouldn't of even replied to you on any of your posts if you actually kept it civil and non vulgar. Instead you posted multiple times cursing at people because they don't have same opinion as you.

Seganomics · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

Sony announced PS5 first. So none of this really holds up.

Dokkaebi G0SU · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

damn, all of those sound pretty negative. except 5 words at the end of D.

Yearsoflurking · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

PS4 contained none of these and was announced first, everything doesn't need to be negative.

Deleted member 59519 · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

So all of these would hold true for the PS4 announcement too, right?

Troll · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

this must be your first time going into a new gen.

Kreten · Dec 17, 2019

Melchiah said:
Then why didn't he post the tweet without the reply? Because that's what he wanted people to see, "just for the fun", and it's not the first time, as stated in the ban info:

I get that, but shouldn't that standard be applied across the board? There was another person who posted a meme of xbox as a trash can, do mods not take that as console warring because xbox fans will take that as warring.

DukeBlueBall · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

E) You have a specs / features that can't be bested, and your competitors, if stays silent on those after going after you, indicate a weaker position.

Which is exactly what happened last generation.

Splader · Dec 17, 2019

Thanatos said:
Honestly, critical thinking cap on here:

Why do you want to announce your thing before the competition does?

A) you have the more "flawed" product, and want to get out ahead of the announcement.

B) you want to claim and occupy some of the marketing terms, such as "super fast load times", that you think the competition will use

C) You think your last product did rather underwhelming on a global scale and The Game Awards was the best place to announce your new one, knowing even that people who do not like your product will be watching.

D) You had planned this from the very beginning to meet criteria A, B, C or criteria not mentioned above.

You always leave room in your messaging to react to competitors, but you don't change the whole project when people are already working off its framework, except for small changes.

These are clearly the only possible reasons.

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