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vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
Yeah, that's probably really a pipe dream.

Multiple games being able to be suspended has me thinking they might can do the ultra fast transfer from external hard drives to the on board SSD. Which reminds me....

Ok, the suspend/resume multiple games feature mentioned for Series X.

Alot of stuff was so similar this gen already with PS4, XBO: suspend/resume, ready to start, etc.

Do we expect Sony to also offer this with PS5?

When I read that I was beyond hyped. That's also another thing that gets added to the impossible, now possible list. I know some said it was possible, but some also said it wasn't.

This was my most wanted feature for next gen when the SSDs were confirmed.

According to Jason the messaging behind the PS5 seems to be all about instant access and no loading. I think based on that, plus the great suspend resume feature of the PS4 that they'll also allow you to suspend multiple games.

Also, wasn't there a patent Sony had about letting users save an entire game state that could be sent to other people via a link, not unlike what Stadia's promising? Saving game states could be a big feature on the PS5, and with instant loading the whole suspend/resume thing would just be a part of that.

Absolutely this is true, as I don't know what the final revealed specs will be for both. But my point is really just that the head of Xbox and the entire company throwing down with the surprise reveal, console form factor and messaging about power should certainly be viewed as rather strongly relevant to this topic until both are fully revealed.

I know, but here's how I look at it. Across multiple statements they've said, "the fastest, most powerful Xbox". Any and all proclamations of being the fastest or more powerful could be seen as a derivative of that message. That way it's non-committal and IF the PS5 does wind up being more powerful then they haven't lied and can't be held to anything. It's simply a clever use of words to send a message without really saying anything. Microsoft has a history of doing this, going back to the E3 2018 talk about next gen.

They WANT to build this narrative. If it turns out they're more powerful then they just continue to ride the wave of the narrative. If it turns out they're not more powerful then they haven't promised anything other than it being the most powerful Xbox ever. They're simply hedging their bets with these statements. There's nothing wrong with that, of course and it obviously is working with a lot of their fans. I'm just giving my perspective on what's going on. Conversely, Sony doesn't seem as interested in making proclamations like this or in playing this sort of wordplay game. Sure you can bet if the PS5 winds up being more powerful then they'll play that up in their advertisements, but at this stage before everything is revealed it doesn't seem to be their style to do that.
 
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Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
That super impressive stuff. Kinda bittersweet though, because now that you have done this, chances are that even if sony wanted to make something like that they would probably have to change it. Hopefully they just shamelessly copy your design lol.

The only thing off is your ports layout, they kinda have to all be in a straight line, with exception to USB ports which can be potentially stacked.


And SSD with over 2x to speed is more relevant to the entire system than a 10-20% difference in GPU power. And its something that ould be significantly more obvious. Its also not about just loading times, its a lo ore than that. The system with the faster SSD can get away with reserving less RAM for itsOS, or streaming more data for games.
I really don't believe that either of them will be under 3000MB/s because Sony said faster than anything currently in PC and Microsoft website states next gen ssd. Why would MS pay for next gen ssd if at 1000MB/s with many drives over that already.
Anyone notice anything about sound being impressive? I'm on phone and it's just stereo, but sounds amazing!

Yes I'm well aware of performance improvements, again a floating point calculation is the most basic measure to measure the raw power of different chips. 12TF polaris is only able to do that many floating point calculations and 12TF RDNA is still only able to do that same amount of calculations. Improvements they made to GPU for crypto mining, gaming, industrial workload is not a simple measure for power and a reason it is not used. For instance go look at graphs of RX 5700 XT vs RTX 2070 in Battlefield V and in Fortnite you will notice how two cards trade places which tells you stating how a card will perform in gaming accurately is not possible.
Yeah, that's probably really a pipe dream.

Multiple games being able to be suspended has me thinking they might can do the ultra fast transfer from external hard drives to the on board SSD. Which reminds me....

Ok, the suspend/resume multiple games feature mentioned for Series X.

Alot of stuff was so similar this gen already with PS4, XBO: suspend/resume, ready to start, etc.

Do we expect Sony to also offer this with PS5?

When I read that I was beyond hyped. That's also another thing that gets added to the impossible, now possible list. I know some said it was possible, but some also said it wasn't.

This was my most wanted feature for next gen when the SSDs were confirmed.

I believe that both of them will have it as they both have it right now. I also think that games will utilize it better than they currently do as well as tracking and saving things in real time.
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
The same company that tried to make Xbox one seem more powerful than it was? I remember an ad that even claimed it was the most powerful console back when preorders or when it was revealed. You had penelo in here muddying the waters. They were pushing how cloud would make it like 8 xboxes in japan or something. I would never take their word with vague PR. I'll just wait until both are compared when released.

No, the company that with a chip on their shoulder decided they didn't like losing in the power department and made certain their console crushed the next best thing in power when they announced Xbox One X. Did they lie or PR bs about how capable Xbox One X would be? Why exactly do we expect anything to change with the same person in charge and an even bigger mandate to go all out on gaming from their CEO?
 

DIEHARD

Member
Dec 6, 2019
79
I do expect that Sony probably has some extra SSD customization that they are proud of given it was such a huge part of their initial Wired reveal and with these comments from Jason quite a while ago too. But I also think that it is interesting relative to the power messaging coming from Xbox that hasn't been messaged the same from Sony yet.
Its wise and good business sense to PLAY TO YOUR STRENGTH & SELL WHAT YOUR GOOD AT. Trying to win hearts and minds, then your money.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
Do you want it to be exactly the same, minus the cutout and buttons/screen? Or just a revised "less crazy" version?
Kinda like PS2 dev kit vs PS2 very similar, but both designed for needed function. I'd say that PS5 will need to remain big so probably just without the cutout and all the buttons.

Then again you have the creative talent so lets see how you think Dev kit could transition into retail unit while remaining similar in looks without V :-) Thank you!
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
No, the company that with a chip on their shoulder decided they didn't like losing in the power department and made certain their console crushed the next best thing in power when they announced Xbox One X. Did they lie or PR bs about how capable Xbox One X would be? Why exactly do we expect anything to change with the same person in charge and an even bigger mandate to go all out on gaming from their CEO?
There was no need to be vague about Xbox one x because it was released a year later at 100 more. Obviously it was going to be more powerful.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,921
No, the company that with a chip on their shoulder decided they didn't like losing in the power department and made certain their console crushed the next best thing in power when they announced Xbox One X. Did they lie or PR bs about how capable Xbox One X would be? Why exactly do we expect anything to change with the same person in charge and an even bigger mandate to go all out on gaming from their CEO?

MS did BS about how powerful the original Xbox One was (which is what the person you quoted was talking about, not the One X):

XIvl4Xn.jpg
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
No, the company that with a chip on their shoulder decided they didn't like losing in the power department and made certain their console crushed the next best thing in power when they announced Xbox One X. Did they lie or PR bs about how capable Xbox One X would be? Why exactly do we expect anything to change with the same person in charge and an even bigger mandate to go all out on gaming from their CEO?

Of course it was easier for MS to make certain of that when launching a year later and $100 more than the PS4 Pro. Now both next gen consoles will be launching at the same time so things become a lot less certain. There's any number of ways things can play out with the next gen consoles, but I don't think equating them to the Pro/X is right.

What I am certain of is that both companies will be giving it their all. We just need to wait and see how each of their strategies play out.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
According to Jason the messaging behind the PS5 seems to be all about instant access and no loading. I think based on that, plus the great suspend resume feature of the PS4 that they'll also allow you to suspend multiple games.

Also, wasn't there a patent Sony had about letting users save an entire game state that could be sent to other people via a link, not unlike what Stadia's promising? Saving game states could be a big feature on the PS5, and with instant loading the whole suspend/resume thing would just be a part of that.



I know, but here's how I look at it. Across multiple statements they've said, "the fastest, most powerful Xbox". Any and all proclamations of being the fastest or more powerful could be seen as a derivative of that message. That way it's non-committal and IF the PS5 does wind up being more powerful then they haven't lied and can't be held to anything. It's simply a clever use of words to send a message without really saying anything. Microsoft has a history of doing this, going back to the E3 2017 talk about next gen.

They WANT to build this narrative. If it turns out they're more powerful then they just continue to ride the wave of the narrative. If it turns out they're not more powerful then they haven't promised anything other than it being the most powerful Xbox ever. They're simply hedging their bets with these statements. There's nothing wrong with that, of course and it obviously is working with a lot of their fans. I'm just giving my perspective on what's going on. Conversely, Sony doesn't seem as interested in making proclamations like this or in playing this sort of wordplay game. Sure you can bet if the PS5 winds up being more powerful then they'll play that up in their advertisements, but at this stage before everything is revealed it doesn't seem to be their style to do that.
Take a look at this video, at around 11:35 he shows Sea of Thieves loading on his Samsung 970 Pro NVME in 23 seconds and claims to have been told by two sources that on Sbox Scarlett it loads in under 5 seconds. This to me also confirms some crazy SSD speeds and actual next gen NVME just as MS claim on their website and what Sony said of being faster than anything on PC currently.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
Take a look at this video, at around 11:35 he shows Sea of Thieves loading on his Samsung 970 Pro NVME in 23 seconds and claims to have been told by two sources that on Sbox Scarlett it loads in under 5 seconds. This to me also confirms some crazy SSD speeds and actual next gen NVME just as MS claim on their website and what Sony said of being faster than anything on PC currently.

Nice, is this person a reliable source of information? It's definitely expected that the Xbox will have great loading times as well. It'll be interesting to see how they compare.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Of course it was easier for MS to make certain of that when launching a year later and $100 more than the PS4 Pro. Now both next gen consoles will be launching at the same time so things become a lot less certain. There's any number of ways things can play out with the next gen consoles, but I don't think equating them to the Pro/X is right.

What I am certain of is that both companies will be giving it their all. We just need to wait and see how each of their strategies play out.
People always want to forget the year and price difference as if that didn't play into the power difference of the two mid gen refreshes
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
I remember more examples, their was a preorder page on their site that had a similar quote. Was posted in Gaf threads years ago.
I'm quite surprised that there was no class action lawsuit against them about that one. Then I remembered what does "most powerful" really mean? Answer is it could be any number of things, for instance draws most watts, immerses gamers the most, has most compute power, has the strong messaging etc etc.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
Take a look at this video, at around 11:35 he shows Sea of Thieves loading on his Samsung 970 Pro NVME in 23 seconds and claims to have been told by two sources that on Sbox Scarlett it loads in under 5 seconds. This to me also confirms some crazy SSD speeds and actual next gen NVME just as MS claim on their website and what Sony said of being faster than anything on PC currently.

FYI, I had seen that and tested it on my Xbox One X in the same manner and ended up with about 1 minute and 8 seconds. So needless to say it had me pretty excited if anything close to that :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,897
And SSD with over 2x to speed is more relevant to the entire system than a 10-20% difference in GPU power. And its something that ould be significantly more obvious. Its also not about just loading times, its a lo ore than that. The system with the faster SSD can get away with reserving less RAM for itsOS, or streaming more data for games.
I could see it playing out like that.

You can tell Sony can't wait to talk about their SSD.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
FYI, I had seen that and tested it on my Xbox One X in the same manner and ended up with about 1 minute and 8 seconds. So needless to say it had me pretty excited if anything close to that :)
I think this next gen will spoil us rotten. We are getting crazy loading along with crazy GPUs and CPUs. I can already see games like AC having such massive crowds of NPCs due to CPU and SSD
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,860
Take a look at this video, at around 11:35 he shows Sea of Thieves loading on his Samsung 970 Pro NVME in 23 seconds and claims to have been told by two sources that on Sbox Scarlett it loads in under 5 seconds. This to me also confirms some crazy SSD speeds and actual next gen NVME just as MS claim on their website and what Sony said of being faster than anything on PC currently.
Games on PC are not at all optimized for SSD, so the actual drive itself may only be 2GB/s but still load a game faster than a 3.5GB/s drive on PC. You'll need to wait for loading comparisons between PS5 and XSX to have a good comparison, or wait for full tech specs.

Edit: Also Microsoft's crazy DRM on their Windows Store games probably slows loading way down too.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
Games on PC are not at all optimized for SSD, so the actual drive itself may only be 2GB/s but still be faster than a 3.5GB/s drive on PC. You'll need to wait for loading comparisons between PS5 and XSX to have a good comparison, or wait for full tech specs.
Didn't mean to compare the two consoles as we have no clue besides two statements.

My thought process is why would MS pay for next gen SSD when there is already 3GB/s drives out there if it was less than that and they do claim on their website that it's "Next generation SSD."

Cerny stated that there is no drive as fast on PC currently.

To me this says that they are both over 3GB/s, but by how much each one is that is unknown to me.

Microsoft said 40x faster, we know that drive in xbox one is about 85MB/s xbox one s is 100MB/s drive and xbox one x is 140MB/s so 40x average of about 110MB/s would come at little over 4GB/s.

Sonys could be even faster than that, we don't know.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,860
Didn't mean to compare the two consoles as we have no clue besides two statements.

My thought process is why would MS pay for next gen SSD when there is already 3GB/s drives out there if it was less than that and they do claim on their website that it's "Next generation SSD."

Cerny stated that there is no drive as fast on PC currently.

To me this says that they are both over 3GB/s, but by how much each one is that is unknown to me.

Microsoft said 40x faster, we know that drive in xbox one is about 85MB/s xbox one s is 100MB/s drive and xbox one x is 140MB/s so 40x average of about 110MB/s would come at little over 4GB/s.

Sonys could be even faster than that, we don't know.
An easy explanation would be cost, they're spending so much on the GPU and CPU and cooling that money needs to be saved somewhere. A 2GB/s drive would save on I/O cost and drive cost. Also NVME drives are hot, so having a bit slower one could reduce heat in what's already going to be a hard to cool console.

I'm not saying the drive is or isn't a certain speed, but right now the only numbers we have are those 2GB/s numbers.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
An easy explanation would be cost, they're spending so much on the GPU and CPU and cooling that money needs to be saved somewhere. A 2GB/s drive would save on I/O cost and drive cost.

I'm not saying the drive is or isn't a certain speed, but right now the only numbers we have are those 2GB/s numbers.
Wouldn't current gen 2GB/s drive be cheaper than next gen that's on a more expensive port with unnecessary extra bandwidth?

Also if Sony is more powerful then they are possibly spending even more on cooling or on APU if more CUs
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously. He's about one step above Timdog for pure craziness at times.

Ahh, I see...


Anyways, I still drool every time I see those ReRAM figures Sony is expecting where a 128 GB drive will target 25.6 GB/s reads and 9.6 GB/s writes, and the 256 GB version will target 51.2 GB/s reads and 19.2 GB/s writes. Either one would be a miracle IMO.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,860
Wouldn't current gen 2GB/s drive be cheaper than next gen that's on a more expensive port with unnecessary extra bandwidth?
PCIe 4 would need less lanes for the same bandwidth, making the motherboard less complex and cheaper. And as I edited in there would be less heat from a slower SSD.

Edit: This is all about the specs for Microsoft's drive being plausible. No reason to go for a higher speed if you think the lower speed is more than sufficient. We don't have any stated specs for Sony's drive, just patents and guesses right now so I don't want to guess at what they're doing.
 

Deeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
966
United States
Ahh, I see...


Anyways, I still drool every time I see those ReRAM figures Sony is expecting where a 128 GB drive will target 25.6 GB/s reads and 9.6 GB/s writes, and the 256 GB version will target 51.2 GB/s reads and 19.2 GB/s writes. Either one would be a miracle IMO.

Remember that's for a full SSD made with ReRAM.

The SSD that's inside the PS5 will likely be OEM. It won't be a full SSD using ReRAM storage. That'd be totally insane overkill in perf and price. Only enterprise level cloud servers need that kind of performance.

It's up to Sony/Microsoft to customize their SSD with other hardware and software. Sony's got the ReRAM, and Microsoft...well...maybe they have something too.
 

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
The real difference between two GPUs is found by benching games.

I doubt MS is running with theoretical forum calculations.
True, but as I said if you look at the performance of RX 5700 XT vs RTX2070 in Battlefield V and Fortnite you see that they flip flop places so that clearly tells us that simply benching games is not the best universal method how raw power is determined.

For instance take game with RT and run it on xbox one X (have to use software rt)and then on xbox series x. Do you really believe that even if series x was 9 TF with RT hardware that it would only perform 2x better?
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,860
True, but as I said if you look at the performance of RX 5700 XT vs RTX2070 in Battlefield V and Fortnite you see that they flip flop places so that clearly tells us that simply benching games is not the best universal method how raw power is determined.

For instance take game with RT and run it on xbox one X (have to use software rt)and then on xbox series x. Do you really believe that even if series x was 9 TF with RT hardware that it would only perform 2x better?
Not to mention MS may not even have final silicon to directly benchmark yet.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
Remember that's for a full SSD made with ReRAM.

The SSD that's inside the PS5 will likely be OEM. It won't be a full SSD using ReRAM storage. That'd be totally insane overkill in perf and price. Only enterprise level cloud servers need that kind of performance.

It's up to Sony/Microsoft to customize their SSD with other hardware and software. Sony's got the ReRAM, and Microsoft...well...maybe they have something too.

I imagine if they're doing the ReRam cache it'll be soldered to the board, any idea what speed figures we're looking at there?
 

nolifebr

Banned
Sep 1, 2018
11,465
Curitiba/BR
I imagine if they're doing the ReRam cache it'll be soldered to the board, any idea what speed figures we're looking at there?

There's half enterprise speeds that cost less. 12gb read/5gb write.

Anyway, just wondering... would ReRAM + HBM2 make any giant difference on console hardware? Or would they basically have the same task on the system?
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
Dark Space
True, but as I said if you look at the performance of RX 5700 XT vs RTX2070 in Battlefield V and Fortnite you see that they flip flop places so that clearly tells us that simply benching games is not the best universal method how raw power is determined.

For instance take game with RT and run it on xbox one X (have to use software rt)and then on xbox series x. Do you really believe that even if series x was 9 TF with RT hardware that it would only perform 2x better?
Benching games is literally the best method to determine how two GPUs relate to each other on a power scale. Any other statement is madness. The 5700 XT and 2070 trading blows means what to the discussion exactly? We are comparing the 5700 XT to the RX 580. Did you look at the video I posted? I can link it again if it got lost.

We both know software ray-tracing is trash so the question is disingenuous. We aren't talking about turning ray-traycing on right now.

I also haven't once said that the Series X GPU is only 9TF. I expect an overclocked part which puts it above 10TF. That also lines up with the rumors of 2Ghz+ clocks.
 

kungfuian

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
278
Time for a return to snow boarding and Dave Mira games so I can play SSX & BMX XXX on the XSX while eating Tex Mex

Seriously want a good next gen snow boarding game though!
 
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Deleted member 2379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,739
Didn't mean to compare the two consoles as we have no clue besides two statements.

My thought process is why would MS pay for next gen SSD when there is already 3GB/s drives out there if it was less than that and they do claim on their website that it's "Next generation SSD."

Cerny stated that there is no drive as fast on PC currently.

To me this says that they are both over 3GB/s, but by how much each one is that is unknown to me.

Microsoft said 40x faster, we know that drive in xbox one is about 85MB/s xbox one s is 100MB/s drive and xbox one x is 140MB/s so 40x average of about 110MB/s would come at little over 4GB/s.

Sonys could be even faster than that, we don't know.

Here is how I see it playing out. Sony will cut back on the GPU (I'm still team 9.5-10.5) while leveraging ReRam and the SSD to drive loading and performance gains.
MS is likely going fairly stock on the SSD. Sony is going custom likely with a ReRam addition.

Sony can't hit 12 TF with a pure custom ssd and ReRam. Their BOM would put them at $599 minimum.

Everyone has to remember that you can have everything. There are trades made. Sony has been harping on their storage solution quite a bit so that appears to be where they focused. MS focusing on pure power so they went stock.

Does this sound logical?
 

msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
Here is how I see it playing out. Sony will cut back on the GPU (I'm still team 9.5-10.5) while leveraging ReRam and the SSD to drive loading and performance gains.
MS is likely going fairly stock on the SSD. Sony is going custom likely with a ReRam addition.

Sony can't hit 12 TF with a pure custom ssd and ReRam. Their BOM would put them at $599 minimum.

Everyone has to remember that you can have everything. There are trades made. Sony has been harping on their storage solution quite a bit so that appears to be where they focused. MS focusing on pure power so they went stock.

Does this sound logical?

There isn't any reram....
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Fantastic. Honestly, while the fact that I'm deep in the PS ecosystem means I obviously want the PS5 to be as powerful as it can be, having it come with the weaker APU but a much faster SSD (and maybe even faster RAM) would be really fascinating from a technical perspective. I would love to see the results of something like that.
And that is my sentiment too.

I believe that sony go would lean and mean and MS would go big and placid. Sony would end u with the better "engineered" system and MS would end up with the better "looking" system. Sony's system would be louder and MS system would be quiet. Sony's OS would be basic and direct and MS OS would be more elaborate. Sony's system may get by with 16GB of 18Gbs RAM and MS will go with 18GB of 14Gbs RAM. Sony's would go with 5GB/s SSD but with like 720GB/1TB while MS would go with 2GB/s SSD with like 1TB/2TB. Sony would clock its smaller GPU higher while MS would clock their larger GPU lower. Sony would cut off a chunk of the CPU cache while MS would cut off less or leave it as is.

That's how I see these machines being different. Just very different design philosophies but ultimately arriving at the same place.

I really don't believe that either of them will be under 3000MB/s because Sony said faster than anything currently in PC and Microsoft website states next gen ssd. Why would MS pay for next gen ssd if at 1000MB/s with many drives over that already.
The same way why MS could be going with a bigger APU than sony, or having more (but slower Gbs) RAM ad making up for that by having a wider bus than sony.

Something ha to give somewhere, neither of them can just put the best of the best of everything. Concessions have to be made in areas that they feel play to their strengths. Eg, sony could opt for 16GB of RAM with a 256bit bus knowing fully well that their investment in a faster SSD would mean they only need to reserve 2GB of that RAM for the OS and have the rest of the OS streamed in and out of RAM as needed. And this would tie to them going with a very basic OS. While MS would probably want to have a more fleshed out OS hat would end up needing more RAM, and would force them to not only up the RAM to 18GB but also end up having to use 14Gbs chip, but that's ok cause they have a wider bus.

Something has to give somewhere.
 
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vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754

There are any number of reasons Sony might decide to eat the cost and stick it in the PS5, the first being it would give their new business a huge new customer right off the bat and the money dumped into that business will help drive down prices. Plus it will act as a perfect demo for any other potential buyers of Sony's reram tech to show how well it performs.

Plus of course it'll be an in-house solution they can use to give their new PS5 an advantage in the market. Sony is used to using Playstation to push new tech and businesses for the company as a whole. I also don't think it's a coincidence that Sony moved up their production of ReRAM to be ready to go in 2020, which coincidentally lines up with the PS5 launch.

Well, that's my hope at least.
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
Of course it was easier for MS to make certain of that when launching a year later and $100 more than the PS4 Pro. Now both next gen consoles will be launching at the same time so things become a lot less certain. There's any number of ways things can play out with the next gen consoles, but I don't think equating them to the Pro/X is right.

What I am certain of is that both companies will be giving it their all. We just need to wait and see how each of their strategies play out.

Fair enough. One thing is for certain, regardless of who comes out on top, Microsoft didn't hold anything back so this is exciting.
 
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