User Banned (3 days): Antagonizing another user; account in junior phase
Are you a kid? The way you write strongly suggest it and I would just like to know how much slack should I cut you.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Are you a kid? The way you write strongly suggest it and I would just like to know how much slack should I cut you.
Of course they can be wrong. As I said, solid info from Sony/MS about what's in their machines, quantitative specs that we can judge and weigh for ourselves is the best. But if you're talking about comparison - competitive comparison - then if that is not clear from the solid info about the machines that we have, I would easily wait on third party commentary to leak out - if not, ultimately, real performance comparisons in games - than to rely on what MS or Sony say, if they're not offering quantitative detail to back up what they're saying, or if the quantitative detail suggests something different. That doesn't mean I'd take the first third party press report as gospel, but as I said, I would view it with increasing confidence if multiple reports pointed in one direction. Platform holder messaging wrt competitive comparison in the absence of hard spec detail can be horrendously brazen and misleading.
what actually would be a somewhat novel cooling solution would just be using really good thermal paste for once.
like if they used MX-4 which is good for 8 years and would keep temps down probably by 5 degrees C over the cheap garbage they usually use.
like it's a simple and relatively cost effective solution. Add a big heat sink and good case fans and heat shouldn't be the issue.
really heat dissipation isn't the issue, it's how big and pricey of a psu do they want to use. SFF 500w plus psus are not cheap.
like if they used MX-4 which is good for 8 years and would keep temps down probably by 5 degrees C over the cheap garbage they usually use.
like it's a simple and relatively cost effective solution. Add a big heat sink and good case fans and heat shouldn't be the issue.
really heat dissipation isn't the issue, it's how big and pricey of a psu do they want to use. SFF 500w plus psus are not cheap.
People didn't read the article, they found the number they dream an keep repeating like it was official.
The same article bring 9-10 to double Xbox ONE X and say 12tf is a target not a official spec.
I don't think we can compare with previous gen where MS strategy was REALLY damn bad. We know for a fact that MS was more expensive because of Kinect, that some power was reserved for it, ... The console was built around it. But without Kinect, both would certainly have been at 400$ from the beginning.
I don't see how it would be possible to be better in every way (people here are talking about GPU, memory, SSD, audio, price...) when both are going for a same strategy : power. At least not if they want to earn money from the beginning.
I'm pretty convinced that one could be better in performance, the other on price, but i don't see one of them, MS or Sony, "winning" on both sides. And my opinion is that both will be close on both subjects : power and price. Maybe a little advantage here and there, but not a difference as big as it was with PS4/One.
8TF is what he thinks would be needed to run every single PS4 game at 4k. As they are. No improvements.
I doubt they'd go into a new gen aiming to be able to run last gen games at 4k with at best marginally better fidelity.
Again, at this time we have none of that. This whole thread is based off speculation with very little concrete info. Paying attention to strategies, history and stated goals is the best we got.
Add faster RAM, SSD, better architecture(performance is not flops for flops) and you get a box that will be pretty hefty. Hitting just 9TF would mean basically 5 PS4 out of the gate, total performance improvement easily over 8, so acceptable.
Once again - a month ago people would be super happy about 9TF next gen, especially with SSD. It's not a weak console. It will be significantly stronger at launch than PS4 was compared to the market.
I can bet you that if that turns out to be true (~9TF at 400$) nobody will complain after watching trailers.
That's probably why, for me, the jury's totally out :) The hard quantitative data we have right now is too incomplete, there isn't a growing consensus reported from developers in the press - indeed there isn't any comparison reported outside of messageboards/twitter AFAIK - and company 'goals' are meaningless beyond us trusting everyone will do their best.
I mean sure we don't have any numbers currently but console manufacturers taking a loss on hardware at launch isn't something new and is expected going by what we know about next gen.
That isn't a mistake, the mistake is thinking they will build a console with 399 price point in mind just because they did it this gen, that makes no sense for the reasons I gave above.
Again, it wasn't the price point, it isn't some magical number like you think.
I agree that "the jury is still out" I said as much in my first post to you.
I disagree that their goals are "meaningless"
Remember before PS4 and X1 Sony said "games games games, and price" Microsoft said they were trying to "take over the living room"
The hardware we got reflected that.
Since we don't officially know anything other than Xbox wants to be the most powerful Xbox, and I'm sure Sony does as well, I'm going to write out a few scenarios in order of what I think is most likely to happen.
1. Both consoles launch at 499, they have basically the same specs, Xbox has the advantage in some areas, while Sony has advantages in others. They are both great consoles and everyone is hopefully happy.
2. Xbox is the most powerful console and sells the box at 499 knowing they can sell Lockhart at 299. PS5 is still powerful but not as powerful as XSX and sells at 399 to match what PlayStation consumers are used to in terms of price
3. Both consoles are powerful but not quite as powerful as some have guessed. Both launch at 399 and both consoles take huge losses.
4. PS5 launches at 499 because it's crazy powerful while Xbox is at 399 with Lockhart at 299. This scenario seems incredibly unlikely because I don't think PlayStation will want to launch at 499 with Xbox having 2 consoles below it.
1. Both consoles launch at 499, they have basically the same specs, Xbox has the advantage in some areas, while Sony has advantages in others. They are both great consoles and everyone is hopefully happy.
2. Xbox is the most powerful console and sells the box at 499 knowing they can sell Lockhart at 299. PS5 is still powerful but not as powerful as XSX and sells at 399 to match what PlayStation consumers are used to in terms of price
3. Both consoles are powerful but not quite as powerful as some have guessed. Both launch at 399 and both consoles take huge losses.
4. PS5 launches at 499 because it's crazy powerful while Xbox is at 399 with Lockhart at 299. This scenario seems incredibly unlikely because I don't think PlayStation will want to launch at 499 with Xbox having 2 consoles below it.
If Sony want the fastest transition between PS4 and PS5 then price will surely be a factor in that, does a $500 console prohibit that strategy?
Sure they could possibly take a loss, I don't see anything here that would make it "expected" that they are taking a loss on these systems. If anything, it would be the opposite where the companies aren't willing to take losses on hardware and that's based off of this current generation...previous generations are so far back in time that they aren't as relevant as strategies today.
Yes they would build something with a price point in mind because of what made them successful...and it's not based off of the competition, it's based off of what they did.
First off, don't say stuff like you know what I think in that manner. It's rude. Secondly, no, I don't think it's some magical number. The reason I say that number is because it's a piece of what made Sony successful...not the entire reason why Sony is successful. Replicating success.
The problem with thermal paste isn't just how good its conductivity is, but also its performance over time. There are plenty of pastes out there that are really good, but some will lose their performance faster due to all the thermal cycling it goes through. Price, durability and probably a case of "good enough" is more important than dropping the temps by a few degrees.
This video actually explains it pretty well.
did you read the full quote? its not 'the ram unveiling thing'. its what he said about having the best specs in every category. that was important to sony. just like how its important for MS.
They are getting the same GPU and CPU, but that doesnt mean they are getting the same chip. We are discussing HBM which supposedly consumes 60% less power. Even if thats a saving of 5-10W, its huge in the context of pushing clocks an extra 5-10%. HBM memory controllers on the die should also take up less space making the die smaller and again saving on power. Lastly, the flute leak shows that Sony cut the L3 cache by as much as 1/4. Since L3 cache takes up nearly half of the CPU, its possible that their CPU is only 40mm2. i highly doubt MS also went with full cache but its entirely possible that didnt gut it by 75%.
RROD and YLOD were due to poor soldering. my brother bought a 40 GB console only a year after i bought my 60 GB console and after mine died in two years, i used his for the remainder of the gen with no issues.
If Sony is pushing clocks, its because they can afford to due to the tech they have gone with. There is zero doubt in my mind that MS will also push clocks to close any gap. Even if Sony loses the tflops war, which is very likely given how confident Phil is, they will still have a 2x faster SSD. Would you call that revolutionary tech? ofcourse not. its just tech. why is it so hard to believe Sony's cooling solution might be tiny bit better than MS. we are talking about literally 10-15% difference in tflops. its nothing.
It's kinda weird, though. You don't have that information either yet you are sure there are only 2 possibilities:
1. PS5 is weaker than xsx
2. PS5 is just as good as xsx with both having trade offs here and there
Why is "PS5 is stronger than xsx" not a possibility when "XSX is stronger than PS5" is?
No offense, but it seems that some people just can't stand the idea of ps5 being stronger.
At this point we simply don't know which console will be stronger in the end and anything is possible.
Anyway, I don't think it will make much of difference. Both consoles will be powerful machines.
You're assuming 5* is a big problem, it isn't. Thermal paste itself really doesn't make much difference nor is the stuff they use in consoles "garbage". Even if we talk about it drying out. I take apart all my console after they die on me and none have had dried out TIM. All were sticky/viscous even after a decade.
Mounting inconsistency would play a much bigger role and is usually the main issue when you hear about people's consoles overheating. Though my guess would be improper storage/placement is the culprit in many cases. It's not til you get into liquid/paste metal that temp drops become apparent. When I put Conductonaut in my one X, I saw a drop of 11* and it no longer sounded like a propane heater when running.
Heat dissipation is an issue.
If you ignore the specs we've heard of next gen console then sure, it isn't expected.
This frankly is repeating the same thing while I tell you why 399 isn't what made them successful (yes it was part of it but it isn't about the number but being cheaper, more powerful and on top of MS fucking up, and this also again brings up my question on Sony expecting all of the above again), and you say I'm being rude, but I see this isn't going anywhere.
Let's not get carried away here. What you see in movies takes hours to render, we are talking about frames per second on a console.
It can be breathtaking without that level of cg.
RDNA 1 doesn't have ray tracing and is not practical to cool at those clocks. This makes me think final Si will likely be on 7NP at least or 7nm+ at best, with some RDNA 2.0 features. Also, there is no precedent for a max CU count of 40, or even 44 for that matter. I can envision a scenario where the dev kit was different from final Si, as Sony was initially targeting a 2019 launch.
#1 i put as most likely and is frankly best for us as gamers.
I'm going with the Hellblade 2 trailer as the absolute upper echelon of what next-gen graphics can be. That's as good as next-gen graphics can get, but most games will come far short of that (understandably).
I said what I think is going to happen. I don't care who is stronger or not so your comment that alludes to think that I can't stand the idea being stronger is incorrect. I say what I think is a possibility. I'm not making claims that these companies are taking a loss on hardware and saying someone is wrong or making a mistake (alluding to someone being wrong).
I think there will be plenty of games which will blow it out of the water
After reading the GameSpot interview with Phil Spencer, I don't think so.
It's almost like that's his speculation.....in a speculation thread.
Yes but we will see even more how these games need budget and a solid pipeline in the background to automate things in development to get these amazing graphics.
Hi guys.
Seems like I missed the shit show and I am actually happy for this. I can see why some people with information don't touch this thread with a ten foot pole: few potential upsides with plenty of opportunity for downsides.
Yes, I do have specs for PS5 and XSX ( but not Lockhart.) I won't share these specs not because I'm trying to be an ass, but because it would be impossible to do so without compromising my source.
Don't ask me and don't private message me.
I had a good conversation with a mod detailing how I got my information and why.
He can verify we had this conversation if he wishes but I would ask him not to detail the contents of our conversation for obvious reasons.
Have a nice day.
Seems like I missed the shit show and I am actually happy for this. I can see why some people with information don't touch this thread with a ten foot pole: few potential upsides with plenty of opportunity for downsides.
Yes, I do have specs for PS5 and XSX ( but not Lockhart.) I won't share these specs not because I'm trying to be an ass, but because it would be impossible to do so without compromising my source.
Don't ask me and don't private message me.
I had a good conversation with a mod detailing how I got my information and why.
He can verify we had this conversation if he wishes but I would ask him not to detail the contents of our conversation for obvious reasons.
Have a nice day.
He said that the level of fidelity achieved in the Hellblade 2 trailer isn't what average next-gen games will look like. The purpose of the trailer was to demonstrate the new rendering techniques we can expect to see implemented, and [my interpretation] it's the pinnacle of what can be expected.
it was a reddit leak. the so called crossaint leak.
it was fake. the picture was taken from a different sony event.
dont think we need to link debunked leaks. but you should be able to google it.
It's ok. For the record, when i said i would give up my first born for a PM with specs i was just kidding. lol
Also, I should note I have been at work a remote location in Alaska for the past couple days (got here Wed night). I am working nights right now (12hr shifts) and as such my physical exhaustion prevents me from following up on post at times.
Sorry for that and please understand.
Sorry for that and please understand.
Yeah I agree. That would be a nice jump already, especially if they keep the price down. Remember most of these consoles are not sold to gadgeteers like us here, they are sold to people who don't wanne spend zillions for gaming.
I'm at a point where I don't really want to know the specs any more. You just have proven that we should expect great things from next gen consoles, so it would clever if we just wait for official reveal and don't spoil ourselves the surprise...
Specs don't necessarily matter. How you use the specs matters more. These consoles will have VRS and RT enabled, which is an insane combo, not to mention the actual Navi/Zen SoC.
Devs will have massive flexibility to use spec power AND these new tools for their games.
We'll see a new level of variability like never before. Performance targets all over the place (1080p 120FPS native, native 4K 60FPS, 4K 120FPS upscaled, deeply upscaled/modified 8K) all wrapped with unique uses of VRS and ray tracing.
Devs will have massive flexibility to use spec power AND these new tools for their games.
We'll see a new level of variability like never before. Performance targets all over the place (1080p 120FPS native, native 4K 60FPS, 4K 120FPS upscaled, deeply upscaled/modified 8K) all wrapped with unique uses of VRS and ray tracing.
The problem is making it repeatable and variance tolerance. It has to be automated for the volume they need, and the dispense process may just be too inconsistent to use certain materials or to not err on the side of over-application.
I was actually just rewatching the Hellblade DF video from Dictator. His comments around how the game (as seen in the trailer) lacks LODs (5:26 - 6:50) which had me wondering if this is something VRS can help with? Instead of altering the level of detail (LODs) of certain assets, the assets are kept at the same quality and the level of shading applied to (with VRS) it is altered instead?
Thanks Klee and completely understandable. To have that level of knowledge would no doubt give away your source so better to not give the specs at all. Any information you can elaborate on after seeing the specs though? Anything to whet the appetite?
Nah man, no need to be sorry for anything. Thanks for keeping this thread interesting and hyped. Next gen is going to be fucking unbelievable.
Also, I've worked night shifts before and it sucks. Can't imagine working night shifts in remote Alaska. Jeez.
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