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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)

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AegonSnake

AegonSnake

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Oct 25, 2017
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anexanhume said:
Even though I'm a card carrying member of the HBM fan club, there's nothing it can do that GDDR6 can't with a little more power. You'd have to prove it has more advantages than just power savings and a little die area IMO.
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How much die area to be exact? Flute confirms Sony is willing to gimp the cpu cache by a massive amount to save on fire area and tdp. Are we looking at over 10 mm2?

Cost savings could be huge considering how expensive gddr6 is. $10 per 1 gb means 160 dollars for 16 gb. 8gb hmb2 plus 12 gb ddr4 should be much cheaper right?
 

Scently

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Oct 27, 2017
1,464
Posting this again as it was the last post:
PCs have always had more RAM, around double what is typically on consoles. During the launch of the 360/PS3 generation the top end PC cards at the time had 512mb of VRAM alone. A high end system would have around 1gb of system memory and the GPU would have 512mb of VRAM for a total of 1.5gb while the 360/PS3 had just 512 total. The X1/PS4 gen was the first time in a while that consoles pushed the boat on RAM and that's as a result of several factors; cheaper RAM, the need to have more stuff resident in memory to overcome the slow I/O speed, and so on. This is not going to be the same situation next-gen with the inclusion of SSD with a constant speed of at least 2gb/s. We literally haven't been in a situation like this before. that's a jump of over 40 times what is in this current generation. Its the single largest jump of anything in the next-gen of consoles and its going to enable game design that we are not used to I believe.
While I would like more RAM than 16gb I don't think its as horrible as its made out to be.
 
BitsandBytes

BitsandBytes

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Dec 16, 2017
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modiz said:
not necessarily, because there is also shipping costs.
PS4's BOM + manufacturing was $381, but it was still sold at a loss of persumably $60 according to eurogamer iirc.
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To be honest I'm not even sure the BOM estimates are that accurate given the far bigger quantities/contract lengths Sony/Microsoft can leverage.

For example PS4's GDDR5 had an estimate of $88 I think. On what basis was that made?
 
BreakAtmo

BreakAtmo

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Nov 12, 2017
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Dictator said:
I think an SSD can 100% help with not utilising as much RAM. A good example is once again star citizen. WIthout the object container streaming technology (which constantly is swapping things in and out RAM from the SSD) , the game used to require more than 16 gigabytes of memory just to load the client and that was with less than a tenth of the content that the game has now. The game cannot exist on modern computers and their RAM limits without heavy SSD use - you would need sooo much more RAM otherwise.

Their servers right now do not have object container streaming and require more than 64 gigabytes of RAM. It goes down to a magnitude fraction less RAM with server side object container streaming implemented.
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Thank you for the details, I appreciate it. Given what Star Citizen needs, do you think next-gen consoles will be able to get away with having only 16GB of total RAM? Star Citizen's requirements make me feel like that would be potentially risky, though I know you can't really make a 1:1 comparison.
 
tomwarren

tomwarren

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Apr 18, 2018
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Hybrid Rainbow said:
That is some selective reading you got going on. Klee has been around for quite some time giving information that he knew from his source and never has this man spoke in absolutes except about Lockhart (which even Tom Warren said didn't exist and Jason Schreier said that nobody was wrong about because it was such a fluid situation).
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I never said Lockhart didn't exist.
 
modiz

modiz

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Oct 8, 2018
17,831
Super Barrier said:
$460-$520 with current prices? Could Series X be $399 retail by end of 2020??
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as Zhuge said in his previous tweets in that chain, MS are going to offer a lot of options to play on xbox (cloud, lockhart, PC, anaconda, possibly other platforms like the switch ports), so they can afford to price the Series X at a profit/minimal loss. going with a huge loss on every Series X console sold will not make much sense for them. they will probably take a bigger loss on lockhart, also should be mentioned that this doesnt include shipping.
 
thuway

thuway

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Oct 27, 2017
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anexanhume said:
You are correct. My mistake. That would be a game changer IMO. The question is then volume.
semiengineering.com

What’s Next For High Bandwidth Memory

Different approaches for breaking down the memory wall.
semiengineering.com semiengineering.com
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Yep! World wide cost would also fall dramatically as Samsung and Hynix would scale HBM for millions of units.

Also it could mean less power draw. This could be shuffled to the GPU or just be saved entirely by making a smaller box.
 
III-V

III-V

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Oct 25, 2017
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I thought it was funny. I was reading the old wired interview and the PS5 dev kit (previous version) was described as being housed in a silver PC tower. Microsoft must have been doing the same and just rolled with it.
 

Deleted member 1589

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modiz said:
as Zhuge said in his previous tweets in that chain, MS are going to offer a lot of options to play on xbox (cloud, lockhart, PC, anaconda, possibly other platforms like the switch ports), so they can afford to price the Series X at a profit/minimal loss. going with a huge loss on every Series X console sold will not make much sense for them. they will probably take a bigger loss on lockhart, also should be mentioned that this doesnt include shipping.
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if they are going with 4 teraflops on Lockhart, I'd gather they wont take a loss from it.
 
modiz

modiz

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Oct 8, 2018
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Flutter said:
if they are going with 4 teraflops on Lockhart, I'd gather they wont take a loss from it.
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disagree.
considering the january leak is pretty much confirmed now, and said both will use 1TB SSD and lockhart is 299 and anaconda is 499, and it seems like the only differences between anaconda and lockhart spec wise are a smaller GPU and 25% reduction in RAM, i expect the BOM reduction to be around $150.
 
DriftingSpirit

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BubblegumNemesis said:
Because people want the consoles to *be* different. Life is more exciting that way. Also this is a speculation thread ;)

IMHO Sony and MS have different commericial goals and this will reflect the choices they make on hardware.
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It is definitely more interesting. Each one going with a different setup because of their specific goals.

I think that will definitely be the case.
 

Deleted member 1589

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modiz said:
disagree.
considering the january leak is pretty much confirmed now, and said both will use 1TB SSD and lockhart is 299 and anaconda is 499, and it seems like the only differences between anaconda and lockhart spec wise are a smaller GPU and 25% reduction in RAM, i expect the BOM reduction to be around $150.
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If it's 299.

Problem is it's more likely they take some loss from Series X, with the cooling it needs and that 12 teraflops spec.
 
III-V

III-V

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Hybrid Rainbows was incorrect about that. No one that I can think of has ever pushed the narrative that Lock never existed.

edit: haha Although I do remember making a joke that Lock was Keyeser Soze at one point
 

Deleted member 1589

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The other reason why some of us are hopeful of HBM, it's because it could be the reason why the PS5's APU is smaller than the Series X. If it doesnt, it could be that it has 40 CUs thus around 10 teraflops

and we can't let Team 10 Teraflops win.
 
bsigg

bsigg

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Oct 25, 2017
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tomwarren Any rumblings about the form factor for Lockhart? Is it going to look drastically different from the Series X? Oh and any other new features coming to the new controller?
 
vivftp

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Oct 29, 2017
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Dictator said:
It 100% is mandatory to play the game. You will have like 10 m-inute load times on a platter drive and constant stutter in the realm of 120 to 180 miliseconds throughout your entire play if you do not have an SSD! The game's technical design requires an SSD.

The best thing for the game is actually an SSD + Optane.


I think an SSD can 100% help with not utilising as much RAM. A good example is once again star citizen. WIthout the object container streaming technology (which constantly is swapping things in and out RAM from the SSD) , the game used to require more than 16 gigabytes of memory just to load the client and that was with less than a tenth of the content that the game has now. The game cannot exist on modern computers and their RAM limits without heavy SSD use - you would need sooo much more RAM otherwise.

Their servers right now do not have object container streaming and require more than 64 gigabytes of RAM. It goes down to a magnitude fraction less RAM with server side object container streaming implemented.


I bet they could use Geometry Cache if they wanted, but not sure if they would/could use geo cache for something with transparency like a volumetric cloud. THen again, there was not actual visible transparency in the ash cloud.

I would just bet on it being offline or like any of the fake volume stuff we saw in Ryse or Rise of the Tomb Raider.
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Good day to you sir. I'm curious if you have formed an opinion on this RERAM matter and whether you think it memory with that type of speed is even necessary for a console versus what can be done on a normal SSD. 😃
 
pswii60

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Oct 27, 2017
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The Milky Way
LittleBigGamer said:
But Lockhart was never out. Was?
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It would still have "existed" as it's a simply a project, hence "Project Lockhart". And the project existed, the design will have happened, a prototype would have existed. Just like Dreamcast's Half-Life port.

I suppose things are getting pretty bad in here if we're arguing about semantics though ;)

I don't think Lockhart was ever shelved. I think Microsoft put out that narrative on purpose as it's a key differentiation in their next-gen plans and they would have wanted to keep it under wraps no doubt for as long as possible.
 
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