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Minthara

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Oct 25, 2017
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To be fair the actual summary of what has been said by "leaks" or "insiders" is nothing more than the following, which of course makes a somewhat surprising multiply sourced 12 TF retail power target for Xbox Scarlett interesting here when it would put the PS5 at needing to best that 12 TF number at retail if Xbox hits their target (yes these are targets for both of them until they make the final call on starting mass production). And of course the Xbox Scarlett dev kits have been further behind in getting out to more developers until very recently too apparently. I don't know who ends up on top by what sounds like a small amount eventually either way, but it really isn't accurate to portray things as a bunch of clear on record sources having PS5 more powerful either given the actual comments and record here.

  • Andrew Reiner tweeted about PS5 being more powerful than Xbox Scarlett at E3 based on "dev chatter" and apparent target specs known to some at the time, but he never indicated whether it was a slight difference or anything before bailing out of the conversation
  • Colin Moriarty said something about PS5 being definitively more powerful than Xbox Scarlett at the same E3 time frame, and information from Klee and Jason from Kotaku since definitely has pointed toward very close power which made this "source" not on the mark it appears
  • Klee has a friend that is developing a 2021 or later next gen game that says the PS5 is slightly more powerful than the Xbox Scarlett (think OG Xbox One versus Xbox One S per his own comparison) based on just what he knows from the dev kits that they have had and whatever other specs info they were provided by Sony and Microsoft
  • Jason from Kotaku most recently after the 12 TF Xbox Scarlett information came out said that he has heard that they are both VERY powerful and that developers said it was too early to be able to say for sure which would be more powerful (this recent wording from him seems to get lost in the discussion here)
  • Matt as a mod on here has consistently said that they would be very close in power also and that is won't really matter either direction, but he hasn't clearly gone on record with which he believes is the stronger console even after the 12 TF

I said "it is said that the PS5 is stronger" which was not intended to make a judgment call either way. As I said, most, if not all of them, agree that they are about equal with a couple saying the PS5 might slightly stronger, with Matt saying that the difference (either way, he did not say the PS5 was more powerful) would not be significant, with him stating that significant would be greater than 15% difference. So please do not attempt to twist my words, one of the things I've rallied the most against in this thread is the twisting of others words.

But yes, there is still a long way to go before the final numbers being confirmed.

If everyone was surprised by the news that Lockhart wasn't dead, isn't it possible and perhaps reasonable given the proximity of the news, that people were also surprised to learn that Scarlett is targeting 12TF?

Before the WC article, other than a disregarded article from JeuxVideo, not a single insider or prominent news organization were talking about 12 TF targets for Scarlett. Now I see some discussing 12TF as if of course it was.

Lockhart sounds like it was a revival/change of direction, which happens in product development all the time at this stage as everyone is prepping for the big reveal in the next month or two. I don't think saying that everyone was surprised by Lockhart is entirely accurate either, since some of the more trustable sources had no comment/said nothing, while some others did claim it was dead. That can be attributed to having different sources though.

I don't think any of the insiders we have here took a shot at the 12TF ball because they were worried it might give them (or their source) away. Do not forget that when you see a NDA project or find out NDA info, you are often not sure how many other people know about it. Outing info as "concrete" if you are the only source puts you at risk, especially if the company is intentionally fishing for leaks.

If you want a good example: I've worked on games in the past that I literally cannot tell anyone else about, even my wife, because I know that less than 10 people saw the prototype that I saw (as an example). I'm not going to be dumb enough to talk about it. However, if someone else posted news about the title and gave the details that I could then back up, that is a different ball game because it shows a wider net of people know.

Essentially: No one that leaks anything ever wants to be the primary source of the info, they always want to be people confirming the info by being a secondary source. If you are the primary source, you yourself are the news, and thats a realm for journalists.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Are you being obtuse are purpose? In relation to the discussion on TF gains from Polaris to RDNA.

Digital Foundry found far less than what is being thrown about in this thread currently, your number calculations included.

Honestly, how do expect Somone to converse with you when you open with "are you being obtuse on purpose"?

What calculations of mine are you referring to?

As for the digital foundry video, it's a great video, Richard does a good job showing the real world performance differences between the different generations of GCN.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,205
If everyone was surprised by the news that Lockhart wasn't dead, isn't it possible and perhaps reasonable given the proximity of the news, that people were also surprised to learn that Scarlett is targeting 12TF?

Before the WC article, other than a disregarded article from JeuxVideo, not a single insider or prominent news organization were talking about 12 TF targets for Scarlett. Now I see some discussing 12TF as if of course it was.

Jason Schreier wasn't surprised. He said possibly exceeding 2080 performance for both last week.
 

OnPorpoise

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,300
The insiders that post in here have overlapped quite a bit, so I'm not sure where all the confusion is coming from.

Off the top of my head we have Jason mentioning Sony/MS "aiming" higher than Stadia's 10.7, and we have Klee's friend telling him both final consoles "should" have double digit teraflops.

We have Matt/Jason/Klee pretty much stating the performance between the consoles being really close. Matt mentioned Microsoft likely being on top performance-wise, Klee was told the PS5 was slightly more powerful.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
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Oct 25, 2017
7,901
Montreal
The insiders that post in here have overlapped quite a bit, so I'm not sure where all the confusion is coming from.

Off the top of my head we have Jason mentioning Sony/MS "aiming" higher than Stadia's 10.7, and we have Klee's friend telling him both final consoles "should" have double digit teraflops.

We have Matt/Jason/Klee pretty much stating the performance between the consoles being really close. Matt mentioned Microsoft likely being on top performance-wise, Klee was told the PS5 was slightly more powerful.

Yep, then you factor in Andrew Reiner and Colin (who is a garbage human being but has had sources in the past) both saying the PS5 edges out the new Xbox and then you have a slight leaning in the "power debate" or whatever you want to call it. That does not mean anything is confirmed, that does not mean that anything is final, it just means at the point in time where Klee/Matt/Reiner/garbage human got their info, things were leaning a certain way, and its certainly possible that all three of them all had the same source (and that source was wrong) and Matt's was right. The reverse is also possible. The whole "who is more powerful" is still a wait and see.

But one thing that pretty much every insider has said is that they are both very close to each other. So that, if anything, should be the major assumption people should be running with.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,860
I have to ask - why? Would you be upset if they just pre-rendered everything? I really don't understand the fascination with non-interactive graphics being a benchmark... in video games.
In-engine cutscene doesn't have to be pre-rendered, but you also don't need 60FPS. If the sacrifice for 60fps is less detail and graphical fidelity, I'll take the graphical fidelity and solid 30FPS instead.
It's so jarring when cutscenes run at 30fps but gameplay runs at 60fps. Total Immersion killer. So I have to disagree.
Same as above. If the trade-off is making a current-gen looking game at 4K 60FPS, I'll take 30FPS and better graphics.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Yep, then you factor in Andrew Reiner and Colin (who is a garbage human being but has had sources in the past) both saying the PS5 edges out the new Xbox and then you have a slight leaning in the "power debate" or whatever you want to call it. That does not mean anything is confirmed, that does not mean that anything is final, it just means at the point in time where Klee/Matt/Reiner/garbage human got their info, things were leaning a certain way, and its certainly possible that all three of them all had the same source (and that source was wrong) and Matt's was right. The reverse is also possible. The whole "who is more powerful" is still a wait and see.

But one thing that pretty much every insider has said is that they are both very close to each other. So that, if anything, should be the major assumption people should be running with.
Good state they can aiming anything but what matters is final specs and official specs.

Target doesn't mean it will be.
 

Minthara

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Oct 25, 2017
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Good state they can aiming anything but what matters is final specs and official specs.

Target doesn't mean it will be.

While this might be true, you forget that developers are already deep in development on multiple next-gen games already, and have been for quite some time. The reveal of the Anaconda/Lockhart specs that the larger public went through were unlikely a massive reveal to them. I know of at least one third party dev thats known what both consoles were shaping up to be, power wise, for quite awhile. Granted, they wouldn't tell me any info even if I had asked, but they are absolutely someone who would know about this kind of thing.

Getting a large amount of devs to aim for one power level and then having to cut down features because you did not meet them is a completely different task than saying "Hey, we came in above target" and even that is a stretch in itself. Companies spend millions of dollars on product development, things like the PS4's "last minute" (that wasn't actually last minute) RAM change are rare.

So if anything, I would say the fact that they have both been close to each other power wise for a couple of months now shows that they are going to stay there, and there is very unlikely to be any last minute massive adjustments. The fact that we keep having source after source, repeatedly, saying they are going to be close to each other is pretty much confirmed at this point. The only question is by what degree, and to me thats not a super exciting thing to discuss until more concrete info comes out about that.
 

melodiousmowl

Member
Jan 14, 2018
3,774
CT
In-engine cutscene doesn't have to be pre-rendered, but you also don't need 60FPS. If the sacrifice for 60fps is less detail and graphical fidelity, I'll take the graphical fidelity and solid 30FPS instead.

Same as above. If the trade-off is making a current-gen looking game at 4K 60FPS, I'll take 30FPS and better graphics.
This just blows my mind, that you would make a game ostensibly PLAY worse to look better.
 

Deleted member 17092

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20,360
This just blows my mind, that you would make a game ostensibly PLAY worse to look better.

there's usually a loading screen so it doesn't matter. It's also like ok it's a cutscene. you'll notice it's separate from the gameplay regardless of the FPS.

like I guess I don't understand the argument.

it will change of these ssds really are magic and somehow we have straight up seamless cutscenes with not even 1 second of loading, but even then I don't really care that much. Like I understand I'm playing a video game.

I actually think it would be interesting if someone intentionally made a video game at 24fps locked, with similar gameplay pacing to a movie.

I might actually dig that if we actually do get near cgi level graphics. I kind of like slower paced stuff though in general.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,860
This just blows my mind, that you would make a game ostensibly PLAY worse to look better.
There are many games that play perfectly fine at 30FPS.

I understand that 60FPS is better for both response times, and also for the eye, but I mean, DriveClub was fine, looked spectacular, they couldn't have achieved that at 60FPS with the time they had.
 

OnPorpoise

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,300
Yep, then you factor in Andrew Reiner and Colin (who is a garbage human being but has had sources in the past) both saying the PS5 edges out the new Xbox and then you have a slight leaning in the "power debate" or whatever you want to call it. That does not mean anything is confirmed, that does not mean that anything is final, it just means at the point in time where Klee/Matt/Reiner/garbage human got their info, things were leaning a certain way, and its certainly possible that all three of them all had the same source (and that source was wrong) and Matt's was right. The reverse is also possible. The whole "who is more powerful" is still a wait and see.

But one thing that pretty much every insider has said is that they are both very close to each other. So that, if anything, should be the major assumption people should be running with.

Couldn't agree more.

We don't know if those conflicting statements about performance superiority are based on anything more than target numbers, and there is no guarantee either console going to hit those specific targets when it's all said and done.

Folks in here need to be far less attached to specific numbers until we get significantly better information than we currently have, lots of different outcomes are absolutely still on the table at this point.
 

z0mer

Banned
Jan 25, 2019
7
12 teraflops is fine if you look at what some developers already can do with 4.2 tflops and that horrific Jaguar cpu. Let's not forget that the RTX 2080 Ti is good for 13.6 tflops, but it also costs 1200 euro's. I have one and it's easily capable of doing 4k/60fps at the highest settings, so I imagine it won't be a problem for the next gen consoles.
 

Deleted member 17092

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I mean yeah I actually think most of this thread is pretty damn pointless. Both consoles gonna be running some kind of rdna based gpu and zen based cpu apu combo.

MS isn't putting resources into Kinect and edram.

like those 2 things by themselves tell you these boxes are going to be close, unless Sony managed to lock up some kind of proprietary contract with amd because of hw development partnership.

it's gonna come down to exclusives and services preference. Imo Sony has the exclusive advantage and MS wins on services. I'll probably put one in the theater and one in the br. Cool.
 

msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
12 teraflops is fine if you look at what some developers already can do with 4.2 tflops and that horrific Jaguar cpu. Let's not forget that the RTX 2080 Ti is good for 13.6 tflops, but it also costs 1200 euro's. I have one and it's easily capable of doing 4k/60fps at the highest settings, so I imagine it won't be a problem for the next gen consoles.
Actually, we don't really know what dev can do with PS4pro or even XBX spec.
 

Deleted member 17092

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12 teraflops is fine if you look at what some developers already can do with 4.2 tflops and that horrific Jaguar cpu. Let's not forget that the RTX 2080 Ti is good for 13.6 tflops, but it also costs 1200 euro's. I have one and it's easily capable of doing 4k/60fps at the highest settings, so I imagine it won't be a problem for the next gen consoles.

5700 xt with a 20%-30% boost will be close to 2080 ti perf and it looks like that's what we're looking at. That's awesome. Basically high end pc hardware going in the boxes and that hasn't happened since the 360/ps3 gen.

they are gonna be $500 though but given inflation alone even I dont think that's bad.

I also think we may not see price drops for 2-3 years. I think that's why MS is really looking hard at lockhart, and given display tech Saturation I don't think it's a bad idea. tv scalers are excellent. Virtually everything is a 60hz panel. Beefy cpu and a midrange rdna gpu is actually a good gamble.

fast storage, fast strong cpu, and a 1080p focused gpu still is gonna be a nice box throughout next gen.

run a 1080p game on a 4k screen and tell me it looks bad.
 

Yogi

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Nov 10, 2019
1,806
If next-gen is just all the same games we get now rendered at (actual) 4K it would be a waste. I want some 1080p 60 fps games with insane graphics.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
Seems a lot of people on this thread have been pushing a narrative they would like to be true (MS somehow last minute massively revising target performance by 20%+ and leapfrogging Sony) rather than one that actually has any evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Newsflash.

Lots of people are pushing narratives.

Narratives or not, I suspect that much will be revealed in the next 90 days.
 

Deleted member 17092

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If next-gen is just all the same games we get now rendered at (actual) 4K it would be a waste. I want some 1080p 60 fps games with insane graphics.

i think early gen we will basically get current games at 4k native. As the gen progresses we will see res drop in favor of effects and such.

in some ways I don't like this. Especially around rtx. The shit is so Fucking demanding and the IQ/res drop to keep good FPS frankly isn't worth it.
 

Minthara

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If next-gen is just all the same games we get now rendered at (actual) 4K it would be a waste. I want some 1080p 60 fps games with insane graphics.

60 FPS is too low if you are aiming for 1080. 120 FPS makes way more sense for anything that isnt a fighting game. In fact, I want 4k + 120 FPS to be as common as it can be if I had my say.
 

Deleted member 17092

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Imo rtx is kind of a scam at this point. I'll take the overall IQ over the effects. I'm worried consoles are gonna fall into the same trap. It's not ready yet.

like metro, control, cod, etc, I'd rather run at higher res and FPS than turning on the rtx.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Actually, we don't really know what dev can do with PS4pro or even XBX spec.
yep. That's why a second box strategy makes sense dropping in a beefy cpu and a fast ssd.
Actually, the unity guys were able to port their impressive Book of the Dead demo on the PS4 Pro. So we do know what a 4 tflops GPU can do.

This is what it looks like on PC.


This is what it looks like on the PS4 Pro. Pretty close.

 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Cerny estimated that you need 8TF to render PS4 games at native 4K. At 10-12TF, there should be more than enough power available
I worry that would be the choice - between 4k60 and 4k30 instead of 1080p60 with insane stuff.

i think early gen we will basically get current games at 4k native. As the gen progresses we will see res drop in favor of effects and such.
But if we get everyone used to 4K, how will they take it when trying to go back to 1080p... I hope it's at least both types of games.
in some ways I don't like this. Especially around rtx. The shit is so Fucking demanding and the IQ/res drop to keep good FPS frankly isn't worth it.
It'll give them a marketable way to push Pro consoles in a few years though.

60 FPS is too low if you are aiming for 1080. 120 FPS makes way more sense for anything that isnt a fighting game. In fact, I want 4k + 120 FPS to be as common as it can be if I had my say.
How many people have a 120fps display for their console? I imagine a very small number. But a 1080p60 game with these systems could produce incredible stuff/
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,088
60 FPS is too low if you are aiming for 1080. 120 FPS makes way more sense for anything that isnt a fighting game. In fact, I want 4k + 120 FPS to be as common as it can be if I had my say.


You don't want games to be able to do anything new lol
Yeah these system powerful but not that powerful to give you 4 times res and frame rate while push gfx and other things forward .
 

Minthara

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Oct 25, 2017
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You don't want games to be able to do anything new lol
Yeah these system powerful but not that powerful to give you 4 times res and frame rate while push gfx and other things forward .

Like any game, it really depends. I think the key is to support options for the people that want them. I can tell you though that Destiny 2 looks great on my PC, even as a "last gen" game at 1080 and 120 fps. I really do think the option for 120 (except, again, in cases like fighting games) should always be there for the people that prefer it.

Hell, I'd even add 8k/30 support in my own world if I could.

Options are good! I don't think there is a good reason, in most cases, to stick with "just" one resolution and framerate. The Pro/X mid-gen consoles have shown this to be true.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,088
Like any game, it really depends. I think the key is to support options for the people that want them. I can tell you though that Destiny 2 looks great on my PC, even as a "last gen" game at 1080 and 120 fps. I really do think the option for 120 (except, again, in cases like fighting games) should always be there for the people that prefer it.

Hell, I'd even add 8k/30 support in my own world if I could.

Options are good!

But then you limit the game design .
If want to have a certain level of destruction and certain amount of NPC you will have to change that .
These are not PC where people can just up garde parts , devs have to make choices .
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,135
Somewhere South
One day people will realize that with each set of graphics configurations you're increasing workload on devs and, especially, the QA teams. Yay, now you can choose anything between 1080p and 8k, 30fps, 60fps, 120fps and uncapped - but none of them really offer good and consistent performance through the entire game.

Might as well give us the full suite of graphics configuration options you get on PC games and let the players themselves figure things out.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Ground up, 1080p60. Make the consoles bleed. Show us what you can do. No one would want 4K till the gen after.
A cyber punk mirrors edge (when the pro version lands with better RTX).

If it's a slow paced game, imagine 1080p30 with that power. Holy shit. Maybe Star Citizen could actually run.
 

Minthara

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Oct 25, 2017
7,901
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One day people will realize that with each set of graphics configurations you're increasing workload on devs and, especially, the QA teams. Yay, now you can choose anything between 1080p and 8k, 30fps, 60fps, 120fps and uncapped - but none of them really offer good and consistent performance through the entire game.

Might as well give us the full suite of graphics configuration options you get on PC games and let the players themselves figure things out.

As someone who actually was a QA tester for a long time, on some major AAA projects, and even was a QA senior and then QA lead...eh? The QA team excuse is not a good one.

QAs job is to break the game, and even in games with one steady frame rate there is a way to break said framerate anyways. I know of at least one title that I worked on that went live with a player teleportation glitch and also the ability to remove the framerate cap.

A well managed QA team is also testing the PC version anyways on multiple configs, so this really is no different. If anything it's even more restricted than PC testing (no drivers, no windows versions, no antivirus tanking the frame rate unexpectedly) so a good lead would be able to handle the multiple configurations with minimal problem. I know I did, and there were people far better and more skilled than I was in the industry.

Edit: Hell, I've tested PC games too that break when you uncap the frame rate because they tied their entire game engine to it without thinking that through. Telling them that was always heartbreaking (although most knew already or at least had an idea).
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,868



giphy.gif


catching up on the thread, so perhaps this has already been clarified, but if you don't think this is ahint that anaconda has taken the TF lead (by likely an insignificant amount), i'm not sure what to say.
 

Proven

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,841
catching up on the thread, so perhaps this has already been clarified, but if you don't think this is ahint that anaconda has taken the TF lead (by likely an insignificant amount), i'm not sure what to say.

They could be trolling but they could also know, no one will know until the specs are announced
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,868
They could be trolling but they could also know, no one will know until the specs are announced

of course you're right, but this is a speculation thread!

i personally don't put a huge amount of faith into what brad sims said, he's made some strange, obvious wrong, comments in the past. but tom warren i think has delivered, and frankly i dont think this is his first hint that anaconda has taken the crown (for whatever thats worth)
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Perhaps with all the rumoured configuration, we can get one step closer to or better yet, get here in real time (at 30fps at least) for a quasi open world game:

 

Mohsenix

Member
Mar 31, 2018
907
There's a monumental difference between nex-gen and current-gen hardware in almost all aspects, we're not getting the same visuals only at native 4K.

Devs especially first party will try to show off the new tech the best they can with visuals not remotely possible on current-gen hardware.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
catching up on the thread, so perhaps this has already been clarified, but if you don't think this is ahint that anaconda has taken the TF lead (by likely an insignificant amount), i'm not sure what to say.

Man you guys are strange. Tom is referring to the fact that it's Xbox's purpose to beat their competition, which in this case is Sony. If the context was the other way, he'd tweet "PlayStation Beat Xbox 5". There's nothing more to it than that and I'm baffled that it's being turned into something else.
 
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