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headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,619
Go up a few replies and few recent pages. We're just going in circles. In order to make a noticeably cheaper sku, they'd need to reduce more than just the gpu. Likely ram, storage, lack of disk drive. You lower the ram, you lower bandwidth.

I saw that mentioned. If it's handling lower resolution, it wouldn't need to hit the same bandwidth and wouldn't have the same RAM requirements to match Anaconda level stuff at a lower resolution.

As for the other two parts, MS has already shown that they're okay with tossing out the disc drive to hit a price point. Less storage could be fine if it's upgradable.

Just my two cents, I don't expect anyone to agree with me, just airing out my thoughts on the matter.
 

Locuza

Member
Mar 6, 2018
380
Thanks for laying all that out. It sounds like if I'm generally understanding the image that this new processing will allow a full polygon to be rendered, followed by the actual shading of that polygon. This sounds like it will mostly be used to help remove pixelation and judder artifacts from final images to be smoother, correct?
It depends on the usecase but in this example to a certain extend yes.

Let's say we have a 60 FPS game and we do the rasterization and pixel shading at 1920x1080p but the HW is not fast enough to keep 60 FPS in all cases, so we implement a dynamic resolution scaling option which currently several games use.

If we go under a certain threshold then our Raster/Shading-Rate goes down from 1920x1080 to 1440x810 to maintain 60 FPS.
This will lead to more pixelization in general, the polygons will appear more pixelated and the detail of the surfaces will also appear more blurry/pixelated.

With VRS you could go for a nicer comprimise.
You may still rasterize in 1920x1080, so your polygon edges are not getting more pixelated and your geometry details stays sharp but you reduce the Shading-Rate which makes only the surface of the polygons more pixelated/blurry.
Or as a simple illustration:
rastertbk0x.jpg


In most cases in regards to VRS it's about saving performance with lowering the Shading-Rate without too much visual impact.
You could go also the other way around if the HW and API is flexible enough and increase the Shading-Rate for fine details while keeping the Rasterization-Rate lower.
In the best case that's just a very flexible tool which allows the developer to increase or decrease the shading rate based on numerours factors.
You could couple the shading rate to a certain region (useful for VR rendering, where the focus point stays sharp, while saving performance on regions where the user wouldn't notice it anyway), to certain objects/surfaces (for very homogeneous color surfaces, like the blue sky or dark ground, where a lower S-Rate wouldn't be so visible) , to a certain movement speed (lower the shading rate when motion blur kicks in, so you get the effect for free and the user doesn't notice), to distance etc.

Nvidia has nice comparison pictures for Wolfenstein and how fine and selective it's applied:
15732_geforce-gtx-1660ti-adaptive-shading.jpg


A full comparison guide from Nvidia here:
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...olfenstein-youngblood-nvidia-adaptive-shading
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
The humorous part of all that, is the only policy that was introduced during that timeframe that still exists today, was the introduction of the requirement to pay for online play on PlayStation. Masterful play by Sony actually.
It did not go unnoticed. Xbox players had already dealt with it so it wasn't so surprising or even unwelcome for them.

Edit: just to be clear: this is as more of a happy derp from Sony than anything else. It wasn't a master stroke by any means.
 

severianb

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
957
Kleegamefan I have a question. Do you know if current Scarlett devkits are known to be slightly more powerful than the planned consumer machines ? We know XBX devkits are 10% more powerful (6.6 tflops) than the retail models (6 tflops) because some CUs are deactivated for yields.

This makes me wonder if the reason for so many X1X games running slower than PS4 Pro are simply a matter of performance testing being done without shutting those extra CUs off. We've seen dumber things happen.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
Seeing all the drive clubs pics here makes me somewhat sad. I would love to see another first-party Racer from sony but it seems it won't be happening. Say whatever about MS game output this generation but they have finally achieved variety in their lineup
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
one genre that could, should and needs to really benefit off the next generation is fighting games, in previous generations fighting games were the graphical powerhouse of a console, but this gen they have become the worst looking games. and the amount of loading screens doesnt help, the SSD might allow developers to start a match immediately, but its more than that, the raw visuals of fighting games havent been on par with other genres, games with much bigger maps and free movement and camera somehow looks better than those fighting games. hopefully this is an area that will revert back and we wil see fighters again be the leaders of next graphics.

It will help will loading but fightings game problems are more due to budget than anything else.
They just don't sell enough unless it's MK ( which is why it impressive in some ways ) and Smash .
People might not think it but fighting games can cost loads of money to get to tech level we have now and we just talking about characters .
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,760
Did you guys notice something with ps5 dev kit pic? Sony didn't take it down. Meaning it's a controlled leak. Sony wants to stay in news headline all throughout the year until the reveal. Again today youtubers are all over this dev kit pics with new videos increasing hype. I kinda like their marketing compared to last time where they were hush hush till reveal. They r using these non important things about next gen to stay in news.

Are you talking about the pic posted on Twitter?
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,838
Australia
Interesting. So, you need a TV that supports VRR to get the best experience next-gen?

Yes. We can't know to what degree yet, but even if they stick with framerate caps of the kind we get today, VRR will still help greatly with any framerate drops. If they could patch VRR onto the Pro right now I might've even bought the C9 already. It just makes everything better.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
one genre that could, should and needs to really benefit off the next generation is fighting games, in previous generations fighting games were the graphical powerhouse of a console, but this gen they have become the worst looking games. and the amount of loading screens doesnt help, the SSD might allow developers to start a match immediately, but its more than that, the raw visuals of fighting games havent been on par with other genres, games with much bigger maps and free movement and camera somehow looks better than those fighting games. hopefully this is an area that will revert back and we wil see fighters again be the leaders of next graphics.

It has nothing to do with hardware, but instead art direction and budget and that won't change next gen. Your Uncharteds, Horizons etc will be the visual showcases again.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
Anyone remember Fight Night Round 4 demo? That blew me away. That was the first time I was blown away by the graphics from a fighting game

These were PS3/360 graphics:

fight-night5_1431861c.jpg


Wow, Iook at the cloth physics here:

 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
I say the best console spec leak we ever got was for Xenon (Xbox 360) In April 2004.

52NJ7QO.jpg


GameSpot Rumor Control April 30, 2004
A technical diagram of the Xbox Next has been leaked. Source: Chinese hardware site GZeasy.com.

The official story: "Microsoft does not comment on rumor and speculation"--Microsoft auto-response.

What we heard: Early this week, GZeasy.com posted a primitive block diagram of "Xenon," Microsoft's not so secret code name for its next-gen console. Since the diagram bore the name of Michael Dougherty, head of the Xbox Advanced Technology Group, many Xbox-watchers eager for inside information thought the schematic was legitimate.

The device pictured did jibe with the Xbox Next that tech reporter Dean Takahashi described in a February San Jose Mercury News article--it will feature 256MB of main memory and three 3.5GHz CPUs sharing a 1MB L2 cache. While this seemed plausible to some, several experts interviewed by Gamesindustry.biz cast doubt on the schematic.

"The diagram looks to me like it reflects the available information about Xbox 2 rather than being a sensible set of information to put on a document for developers," said one. Experts contacted by GameSpot found the fact that the diagram labels the inclusion of a hard drive as "not decided" particularly suspect.

Bogus or not bogus?: Bogus. While it's likely the Xbox Next will contain some of the features in the diagram, it's unlikely the schematic itself is authentic.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/rumor-control-son-of-dreamcast-and-xbox-next-specs/1100-6095043/

Ah, but it was authentic at that time. The final Xbox 360 CPU was 300 MHz slower (3.2 GHz vs the 3.5 GHz) but the RAM was doubled from 256 to 512 MB.


Xbox 2 Details Revealed
APRIL 27, 2004

Chinese website GZeasy revealed an alleged blueprint of Xbox 2, labeled Xenon System Block Diagram, earlier today. The diagram is believed to be the basic concept for the next Xbox, which is either codenamed Xenon or will, in fact, be called Xenon. Though some aspects of Xenon may change slightly over the next year, the diagram is believed to be a close representation of Xbox 2.

Michael Dougherty, head of Xbox Advanced Technology Group, has his name attached to the document, though that doesn't make it any more legitimate. However, the diagram was confirmed as the real deal by a developer close to Microsoft. "We were very surprised to see that leaked," a source, who wished to remain anonymous, told us this morning. "I'm sure Microsoft is freaking out because this is the same stuff [developers] have now."


Other sources have claimed that the document is not real and claim it is a fake. The main point of contention is that the document doesn't state what type of RAM will be used, something that's quite important for development considerations.

A Microsoft representative stated, "Microsoft does not comment on rumors or speculation" -- but Microsoft's legal department requested that IGN does not reprint the schematic on its websites.

While most signs suggest that the document is authentic and of high importance, note that it is also possible the leaked blueprint is an older document never meant for the public eye and that the current architecture of Xbox 2 is quite different.

What does the fancy diagram that Microsoft doesn't want you to see mean? Though it doesn't offer cold hard facts as to what "Xenon" will be capable of in terms of full processing power, one thing is clear -- this baby will be quite powerful.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/04/27/xbox-2-details-revealed
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
I say the best console spec leak we ever got was for Xenon (Xbox 360) In April 2004.

52NJ7QO.jpg













http://www.gamespot.com/articles/rumor-control-son-of-dreamcast-and-xbox-next-specs/1100-6095043/

Ah, but it was authentic at that time. The final Xbox 360 CPU was 300 MHz slower (3.2 GHz vs the 3.5 GHz) but the RAM was doubled from 256 to 512 MB.


Xbox 2 Details Revealed
APRIL 27, 2004














http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/04/27/xbox-2-details-revealed
This shows the kind of confusion we still face today. The block diagram refers to Xenon making you think that's the system or platform codename (a la Prospero, Orbis, Durango, Ananconda, etc.), but Xenon is the officially recognized name for the PPC CPU in the Xbox 360.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
This shows the kind of confusion we still face today. The block diagram refers to Xenon making you think that's the system or platform codename (a la Prospero, Orbis, Durango, Ananconda, etc.), but Xenon is the officially recognized name for the PPC CPU in the Xbox 360.

I might be missing something you said, but both the system/platform and the CPU was codenamed Xenon. But at IBM, the CPU had another codename, Waternoose.

The ATI GPU went by Xenos and also C1.

As for PS4, Orbis was the platform name, and if I'm not mistaken, the APU was codenamed Liverpool.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
I might be missing something you said, but both the system/platform and the CPU was codenamed Xenon. But at IBM, the CPU had another codename, Waternoose.

The ATI GPU went by Xenos and also C1.

As for PS4, Orbis was the platform name, and if I'm not mistaken, the APU was codenamed Liverpool.
No, I stand corrected. I forgot that codename was officially recognized. I was thinking it was just supposition. I had a Xenon unit that never died :) I have a Corona now (Halo 4 edition). It shall never die.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
But it's not gpgpu promoted by nvidia physx. Advanced simulated physic calculated on gpu is very rare now.

I'm not sure of the relevancy of this post to the discussion, sncvsrtoip. We were discussing the use of GPGPU in general, in modern games. Not physics on the GPU.

And GPGPU promoted by NVidia Physx is still GPGPU, aka GPU compute, so an example of what we were discussing; regardless of how rare or not it is.

Bro you need to relax. I guess everyone that has a pro XBOX viewpoint is a sycophant in your eyes. You are one of the top PlayStation cheerleaders on this forum so it's kinda strange seeing you try to call people out. Are you calling out Famitsu as pro Sony and Nintendo?

I think this is something of a gross misrepresentation of Miniature Kaiju 's post. This wasn't what he was doing neither was it what he was implying. I think you may have misread him, GUNDAM STARDUST.
 
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SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
No, I stand corrected. I forgot that codename was officially recognized. I was thinking it was just supposition. I had a Xenon unit that never died :) I have a Corona now (Halo 4 edition). It shall never die.

Ah okay, cool.

On another note...

I wonder, after all these years, how much "Real3DNA" is in Radeon and AMD semi-custom GPUs for consoles / Navi, etc.

Does AMD still have an Orlando, FL office?

If you've followed the PC 3D graphics industry since the 90s, you just might see what I did there.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
This shows the kind of confusion we still face today. The block diagram refers to Xenon making you think that's the system or platform codename (a la Prospero, Orbis, Durango, Ananconda, etc.), but Xenon is the officially recognized name for the PPC CPU in the Xbox 360.
If i remember well,MS was free riding on IBM & Sony Cell development and they got a very nice (at the time) 3C/6T CPU for 360...
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
As an aside, I think the frequent drive-by thread-bitching posts are actually more annoying than any supposed fanboy shit-flinging they think they are calling out.

If you dislike the current direction the thread discussion has taken (and it will happen frequently on a forum like this), just know that by making a thread-bitching post, you're not really contributing anything constructive to the discussion.

(Note: I'm speaking to myself too, since I know i've Been guilty of this in the past.)
 

Deleted member 15973

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,172
Did we ever get 8gb ram leaks for PS4. I remember getting new spec leaks around December 2012 but don't remember if they said PS4 is 4gb or 8gb.
 

sleepr

Banned for misusing pronouns feature
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,965
Did we ever get 8gb ram leaks for PS4. I remember getting new spec leaks around December 2012 but don't remember if they said PS4 is 4gb or 8gb.

The leak talked about 2-4 GB at the time. There's still a thread with all the info in the old forum, just google it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
I'm not sure of the relevancy of this post to the discussion, sncvsrtoip. We were discussing the use of GPGPU in general, in modern games. Not physics on the GPU.

And GPGPU promoted by NVidia Physx is still GPGPU, aka GPU compute, so an example of what we were discussing; regardless of how rare or not it is.



I think this is something of a gross misrepresentation of Miniature Kaiju 's post. This wasn't what he was doing neither was it what he was implying. I think you may have misread him, GUNDAM STARDUST.

Yeah, I apologized. I think I read too many negative takes in a row.
 

Deleted member 15973

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,172
The leak talked about 2-4 GB at the time. There's still a thread with all the info in the old forum, just google it.
I was google PS4 as a lot of more recent threads came up I just tried orbis and found it. January 11th 2013, a month before reveal and we had no idea about the 8gb ram but the CPU was a higher clock at 3.2ghz with 4 cores instead of 1.6ghz with 8 cores. I hope we get some out of no where surprises from either Sony or Microsoft this time as well.
This is making me think that the CPU was originally more powerful but had to compromise for the extra ram to beat Microsoft at price.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,139
Somewhere South
It depends on the usecase but in this example to a certain extend yes.

Let's say we have a 60 FPS game and we do the rasterization and pixel shading at 1920x1080p but the HW is not fast enough to keep 60 FPS in all cases, so we implement a dynamic resolution scaling option which currently several games use.

If we go under a certain threshold then our Raster/Shading-Rate goes down from 1920x1080 to 1440x810 to maintain 60 FPS.
This will lead to more pixelization in general, the polygons will appear more pixelated and the detail of the surfaces will also appear more blurry/pixelated.

With VRS you could go for a nicer comprimise.
You may still rasterize in 1920x1080, so your polygon edges are not getting more pixelated and your geometry details stays sharp but you reduce the Shading-Rate which makes only the surface of the polygons more pixelated/blurry.
Or as a simple illustration:
rastertbk0x.jpg


In most cases in regards to VRS it's about saving performance with lowering the Shading-Rate without too much visual impact.
You could go also the other way around if the HW and API is flexible enough and increase the Shading-Rate for fine details while keeping the Rasterization-Rate lower.
In the best case that's just a very flexible tool which allows the developer to increase or decrease the shading rate based on numerours factors.
You could couple the shading rate to a certain region (useful for VR rendering, where the focus point stays sharp, while saving performance on regions where the user wouldn't notice it anyway), to certain objects/surfaces (for very homogeneous color surfaces, like the blue sky or dark ground, where a lower S-Rate wouldn't be so visible) , to a certain movement speed (lower the shading rate when motion blur kicks in, so you get the effect for free and the user doesn't notice), to distance etc.

Nvidia has nice comparison pictures for Wolfenstein and how fine and selective it's applied:
15732_geforce-gtx-1660ti-adaptive-shading.jpg


A full comparison guide from Nvidia here:
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforc...olfenstein-youngblood-nvidia-adaptive-shading

Pretty good explainer on VRS (and some of the shading basics, as well) Locuza , thank you!

TSS kinda (sorta) builds on VRS: it keeps a primitive list and does a visibility prepass, it knows which visible polygons contribute to each screen pixel, so it can better handle stuff like micropolygons. Also, since it shades to a virtual texture and then samples, you can vary shading rate spatially - lower or high resolution - and temporally - skip every other frame, for instance - per polygon, while rasterizing at full rate. Also can share shades between viewports, so VR can end up much cheaper.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Did we ever get 8gb ram leaks for PS4. I remember getting new spec leaks around December 2012 but don't remember if they said PS4 is 4gb or 8gb.
Not really, that was one reason people lost their shit. And then MS looked double ass after announcing always online and then tripled down on all DRM. Among a few other bad moves at the same time. MS have come a long, long way since those dark days. It was easy prey for Sony, at the time, although I still think some aspects of it caught them by surprise as well.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
I was google PS4 as a lot of more recent threads came up I just tried orbis and found it. January 11th 2013, a month before reveal and we had no idea about the 8gb ram but the CPU was a higher clock at 3.2ghz with 4 cores instead of 1.6ghz with 8 cores. I hope we get some out of no where surprises from either Sony or Microsoft this time as well.
This is making me think that the CPU was originally more powerful but had to compromise for the extra ram to beat Microsoft at price.
Earlier Devkits of PS4 had 4 core steamrollers core but in the end they had very high tdp so design was changed to 8 core jaguar
 

Betelgeuse

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,941
Earlier Devkits of PS4 had 4 core steamrollers core but in the end they had very high tdp so design was changed to 8 core jaguar
This makes me wonder: if you were to build a PS4 28nm APU with 4 steamroller cores, how much would you have to lower their frequency before you reached a TDP comparable to the actual OG PS4 28nm APU? And at that frequency, how would the CPU performance compare to that of the 8 core Jag?
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
This makes me wonder: if you were to build a PS4 28nm APU with 4 steamroller cores, how much would you have to lower their frequency before you reached a TDP comparable to the actual OG PS4 28nm APU? And at that frequency, how would the CPU performance compare to that of the 8 core Jag?
Cant answer your first question but Steamrollers had better performance but Sony were expecting better results from Jaguar. They were hoping in time it would match Steamrollers. That's why early gen you have had a claims of 60fps or death and unlocked games
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
Anyone remember Fight Night Round 4 demo? That blew me away. That was the first time I was blown away by the graphics from a fighting game

These were PS3/360 graphics:

fight-night5_1431861c.jpg


Wow, Iook at the cloth physics here:



yes - so many rivalries in this game! This was the moment of jaw dropping wonder. Wish they made more tbh. I gotta haymaker I need to deliver to a certain plebeian!!!!

but all y'all worrying about photorealistic shininess I want 120fps animations because I'm spoiled and I say so. Hah!
 
Sep 28, 2019
174
Did we ever get 8gb ram leaks for PS4. I remember getting new spec leaks around December 2012 but don't remember if they said PS4 is 4gb or 8gb.
There was this prediction from crytec that next playstation would come with 8GB Ram.
That was early 2011..

Google :
"Crytek wants 8GB of RAM in next-gen consoles"

The thread is pure internet gold. Somewhere around page 22 someone posted in it again just before PS4 reveal event in February..
A fun read..

Edit:
This was the confirmation thread
"PS4 has 8 GB OF GDDR5 RAM"

A crow eating festival
 
Last edited:

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922

EsqBob

Member
Nov 7, 2017
241
I say the best console spec leak we ever got was for Xenon (Xbox 360) In April 2004.

52NJ7QO.jpg













http://www.gamespot.com/articles/rumor-control-son-of-dreamcast-and-xbox-next-specs/1100-6095043/

Ah, but it was authentic at that time. The final Xbox 360 CPU was 300 MHz slower (3.2 GHz vs the 3.5 GHz) but the RAM was doubled from 256 to 512 MB.


Xbox 2 Details Revealed
APRIL 27, 2004














http://www.ign.com/articles/2004/04/27/xbox-2-details-revealed
This is amazing
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
There was this prediction from crytec that next playstation would come with 8GB Ram.
That was early 2011..

Google :
"Crytek wants 8GB of RAM in next-gen consoles"

The thread is pure internet gold. Somewhere around page 22 someone posted in it again just before PS4 reveal event in February..
A fun read..

Oh shit I remember that thread.

Edit:
This was the confirmation thread
"PS4 has 8 GB OF GDDR5 RAM"

A crow eating festival
Yup!
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,879
so, are we dismissing tom warren entirely? his insistence that scarlett (anaconda?) is 12 TF seems like a big deal to me, especially if you also believe ps5 and xboxnext are separated by 10% or less (with ps5 ahead!)

/waves good bye to 10 TF in the rear view mirror
 
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