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Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Thats the one thing they havent confirmed which is very odd. MS was the one that confirmed GDDR6. Sony has confirmed custom SSD, Hardware RT, Zen 2 8 core 16 thread CPU and navi GPU, but wont even talk about RAM which gives me pause.

Hm! I wasn't aware of that. My only reason for thinking it's not HBM is not only cost but I recall there being some other architecture challenges, but I don't recall the specifics enough to want to make a statement about it. So it may not be off the table. It would certainly be a game changer but if that's the case I would revise my $399 speculation :)
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,924
Hm! I wasn't aware of that. My only reason for thinking it's not HBM is not only cost but I recall there being some other architecture challenges, but I don't recall the specifics enough to want to make a statement about it. So it may not be off the table. It would certainly be a game changer but if that's the case I would revise my $399 speculation :)
Obviously HBM is more expensive now, but do you have any insight on the long term price curve? Like SSDs are more expensive than HDDs now but at some point they won't be.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,139
Somewhere South
Albert Penello would you say that the decidedly pessimistic outlook for the home console market back then - 2010 onwards (mobile will kill the dedicated console, etc) was a significant factor in how the XBox One and possibly the PS4 were designed i.e. a more conservative, less wild, broader target approach? Do you think the current market warrants both companies being a bit more daring, bolder?
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
Albert Penello would you say that the decidedly pessimistic outlook for the home console market back then in 2010 onwards (mobile will kill the dedicated console, etc) was a significant factor in how the Xox One and possible the PS4 were designed i.e. a more conservative, less wild, broader target approach? Do you think the current market warrants both companies being a bit more daring?
"it only does everything"..."all-in-one entertainment system"...ehh,those were the days :)
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Talking about streaming I think Microsoft will win. If Sony had a successful gaming streaming service I think a big part of it would be because of the great idea to do the partnership with MS Azure*. And Microsoft has his own solution which looks better than Google offers.

Stadia has a big problem, Google is not a great content company. Amazon is better on this side. But the biggest problem of these two companies is building the studio the expertise to make good videogames takes years. I think Sony and Microsoft have too much advance in this domain. The entry barrier is huge. They would have the same problem if they wanted to enter the market with a new console. It was easier to enter the market before when games were cheaper to made and with shorter development cycles on the AAA side. The cost and the time to build studios are big and it is not like there are tons of independent studios able to do AAA games on the market. And there will probably be much less when Microsoft and Sony finish their own acquisition plan.

* I think it is a too capital intensive activity for Sony and it is visible with the speed of deployment of PS Now.
 
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gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Memory was really expensive at the time - can't remember the circumstances but X360 memory was dirt cheap by the end, so there was a big shock to the system in the cost for DD3. GDDR5 was CRAZY expensive (like 2x the cost). So for MS at least it was always DDR3. The team believed that 8gb of DDR3 would be the same cost as 4gb of GDDR5 so it was a risk but felt it would provide better games and all the media stuff would not come at a cost to the developers.

Of course, it didn't pan out that way. A Hynix fire right before launch drove the cost of DDR3 through the roof (eroding the cost advantage), and all the major graphics cards moved quickly to GDDR5 so prices dropped faster than expected. Worked out great for Sony, not so great for Xbox.

I can only speculate what Sony's original plan was for RAM, but my guess is it was always GDDR5.

Thanks, that's really interesting. Settles a couple of theories. I didn't really appreciate that even for DDR3, cost was a big driver at the time.
 

Respawn

Member
Dec 5, 2017
780
Talking about streaming I think Microsoft will win if Sony does good in streaming I think it will be because of the partnership with MS Azure* and Microsoft has his own solution.

Stadia has a big problem, Google is not a great content company. Amazon is better on this side. But the biggest problem of these two companies is building the studio the expertise to make good videogames takes years. I think Sony and Microsoft have too much advance in this domain. The entry barrier is huge. They would have the same problem if they wanted to enter the market with a new console. It was easier to enter the market before with games cheaper to make and with shorter development cycle on AAA side.

* I think it is a too capital intensive activity for Sony and it is visible with the speed of deployment of PS Now.
Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. Sonys streaming sution will be somehow limited because it's on Azure?
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Albert Penello would you say that the decidedly pessimistic outlook for the home console market back then in 2010 onwards (mobile will kill the dedicated console, etc) was a significant factor in how the Xox One and possible the PS4 were designed i.e. a more conservative, less wild, broader target approach? Do you think the current market warrants both companies being a bit more daring?

I think you're asking "why Jaguar"?

It was simple industry consolidation. IBM (PowerPC) and all the other bespoke chip manufacturers were gone. AMD was the only company left that had GPU and CPU and was willing to build an APU. And the only CPU they had was Jaguar. It wasn't much more complicated than that.

If AMD didn't develop Zen, then consoles would either still be on Jaguar, or your consoles would be getting WAY more expensive.

You also have to remember (and I've said this before) there are a lot of headwinds for game consoles. In Gen7, consoles were not the largest consumers for components like DVD drives, spinning hard drives, or memory. Now, they are basically the *only* consumers of spinning Hard Drives and DVD drives at scale. So costs are flat (or going up) on a lot of components, as well as Moore's Law slowing down.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. Sonys streaming sution will be somehow limited because it's on Azure?

I think if Sony streaming is a success the Azure partnership will be a big part of it. Imo the cloud gaming demand too much capital for Sony and the partnership with MS Azure is a great idea.

The problem of Stadia and the future offer of Amazon is the content. Microsoft and Sony have a huge advantage compare to the two companies. And like I said it would have been the same if the idea was to launch a new console. Content is king.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,997
If AMD didn't develop Zen, then consoles would either still be on Jaguar, or your consoles would be getting WAY more expensive.

Damn, thanks AMD, lol.

When Zen launched and me trying to keep up with the PC side of things, it looked to be a game changer in their battle with Intel.

The stars aligned like hell for all of us.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Damn, thanks AMD, lol.

When Zen launched and me trying to keep up with the PC side of things, it looked to be a game changer in their battle with Intel.

The stars aligned like hell for all of us.

And thanks for Navi too ;) MS and Sony depend on AMD technology. I was not very happy after Vega 7 release and I was thinking this time the consoles will have a great CPU but a very outdated GPU.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,139
Somewhere South
I think you're asking "why Jaguar"?

It was simple industry consolidation. IBM (PowerPC) and all the other bespoke chip manufacturers were gone. AMD was the only company left that had GPU and CPU and was willing to build an APU. And the only CPU they had was Jaguar. It wasn't much more complicated than that.

If AMD didn't develop Zen, then consoles would either still be on Jaguar, or your consoles would be getting WAY more expensive.

You also have to remember (and I've said this before) there are a lot of headwinds for game consoles. In Gen7, consoles were not the largest consumers things like DVD drives, spinning hard drives, or memory. Now, they are basically the *only* consumers of spinning Hard Drives and DVD drives at scale. So costs are flat (or going up) on a lot of components, as well as Moore's Law slowing down.

I was thinking more from a marketing/product development angle (I'm a marketing/advertising guy, too!) and less of a technical angle, really, but thanks, hadn't considered the rising costs associated to the use of what is, essentially, "obsolete" and somewhat niche tech. As VX1 pointed out, there was a lot of "all-in-one" talk going on, trying to appeal to a broader range of consumers, I assume (always something desirable, but we know there are always compromises).

Price point definition, addressable market, additional revenue streams, projected revenue per console, all this stuff would've been affected by a more "bearish" market, so to speak, I assume? Was that a ever a significant concern, did it have any effect on what you guys were trying to achieve withe the Xbox One?
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Then again, we have MS that are supposedly using the GPU for decompression, wouldnt it be a problem for in game streaming? Although it does seem like the GPU boosts the decompression performance by 40x going by the research you linked, it would be a major bottleneck while rendering, as it would force a major chunk of the GPU to be utilized for decompression.

Yes, it will be a problem and is one of the reasons I feel Microsoft's target was to reduce load times while Sony's target has been to completely eliminate them.

As to the architecture differences between eSRAM and eDRAM, talk to the Technical Fellows :)

While eDRAM can be way faster, it requires highly specialized fabrication, limiting your options severely on what process can be used and where it can be made. eSRAM is made of the same kinds of transistors as the rest of a processor so it can be manufactured anywhere on any process you want.
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
I think if Sony streaming is a success the Azure partnership will be a big part of it. Imo the cloud gaming demand too much capital for Sony and the partnership with MS Azure is a great idea.

The problem of Stadia and the future offer of Amazon is the content. Microsoft and Sony have a huge advantage compare to the two companies. And like I said it would have been the same if the idea was to launch a new console. Content is king.

Sometimes i think that Sony is a small company reading your coments, they are not that small.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,997
And thanks for Navi too ;) MS and Sony depend on AMD technology. I was not very happy after Vega 7 release and I was thinking this time the consoles will have a great CPU but a very outdated GPU.

Of course, for Navi too, lol.

I'm excited about next gen. Maybe next gen will be the gen that lasts longer than usual. Alot longer.
 
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anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Talking about streaming I think Microsoft will win. If Sony had a successful gaming streaming service I think a big part of it would be because of the great idea to do the partnership with MS Azure*. And Microsoft has his own solution which looks better than Google offers.

Stadia has a big problem, Google is not a great content company. Amazon is better on this side. But the biggest problem of these two companies is building the studio the expertise to make good videogames takes years. I think Sony and Microsoft have too much advance in this domain. The entry barrier is huge. They would have the same problem if they wanted to enter the market with a new console. It was easier to enter the market before when games were cheaper to made and with shorter development cycles on the AAA side. The cost and the time to build studios are big and it is not like there are tons of independent studios able to do AAA games on the market. And there will probably be much less when Microsoft and Sony finish their own acquisition plan.

* I think it is a too capital intensive activity for Sony and it is visible with the speed of deployment of PS Now.
The fact that Sony aligned with their most dangerous competitor says everything.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
I think you're asking "why Jaguar"?

It was simple industry consolidation. IBM (PowerPC) and all the other bespoke chip manufacturers were gone. AMD was the only company left that had GPU and CPU and was willing to build an APU. And the only CPU they had was Jaguar. It wasn't much more complicated than that.

If AMD didn't develop Zen, then consoles would either still be on Jaguar, or your consoles would be getting WAY more expensive.

You also have to remember (and I've said this before) there are a lot of headwinds for game consoles. In Gen7, consoles were not the largest consumers for components like DVD drives, spinning hard drives, or memory. Now, they are basically the *only* consumers of spinning Hard Drives and DVD drives at scale. So costs are flat (or going up) on a lot of components, as well as Moore's Law slowing down.
So it was more that Sony and MS got the best they could given the situation. It wasn't either of them "going cheap" as it has been suggested here.
Damn, thanks AMD, lol.

When Zen launched and me trying to keep up with the PC side of things, it looked to be a game changer in their battle with Intel.

The stars aligned like hell for all of us.
We really lucked out with AMD making these advancements at just the right time.

Imagine next gen running off Jaguar 2 instead....
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
Yes but Cloud demands tons of capital and Sony is in a good shape financially but this is not a printing money machine like MS, Google or Apple for example.

They don't need that amount of money just to rent .
Which is what most companies do .
That sort of thinking is just like what happen when MS first enter the gaming market or when these other big companies enter certain markets .
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
So it was more that Sony and MS got the best they could given the situation. It wasn't either of them "going cheap" as it has been suggested here.
We really lucked out with AMD making these advancements at just the right time.

Imagine next gen running off Jaguar 2 instead....

Precisely. What else could have been done?

It's 2010/11. You're making your chip selection for your next consoles launching in 2013. You were Power PC, and you know that PowerPC is not going to exist anymore so it's a jump ball. You know that an APU is critical to the business to sell 100M consoles since you can't integrate or cost-reduce when you use discrete components.

Where do you go? What else was available?

You maybe could have gone to Intel and used their integrated graphics. In which case you get a killer CPU but a so-so GPU (esp. in 2010). You go to Nvidia but then you are ARM which would give awesome GPU but have some pretty big challenges for your existing development pipeline (much different than the situation Switch is dealing with)

It was an attrition and business problem.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
Remember back when people thought Navi was a shitshow behind scenes before that was proven false?
It was and is a "shitshow" compared to the rumors that were flying around last year and earlier this year. It was supposed to be much cheaper and more powerful than it ended up being. Unless you're talking about something else?
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
It was and is a "shitshow" compared to the rumors that were flying around last year and earlier this year. It was supposed to be much cheaper and more powerful than it ended up being. Unless you're talking about something else?

Navi is not bad, particularly when running under Direct X12 and Vulkan like in RDR 2 where the 5700XT is comparable to an RTX 2080 and wait RDNA 2 with RT and VRS and other new features and the full Navi line up next year.

DX12 and Vulkan will be the new standard for PC gaming after the release of the next-generation console and Vulkan will stay with Stadia.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
Navi is not bad, particularly when running under Direct X12 and Vulkan like in RDR 2 where the 5700XT is comparable to an RTX 2080 and wait RDNA 2 with RT and VRS and other new features and the full Navi line up next year.

DX12 and Vulkan will be the new standard for PC gaming after the release of the next-generation console.

Yeah next year we will see how Navi really is when they bring out there RDNA 2 cards .
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
Sorry, haven't been in this thread all day but while browsing FB I saw a sponsored article that quoted some Twitter person. That ebruaus person rrr whatever.
Said Ps5 November 2020 at 499? This debunked already?
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
Precisely. What else could have been done?

It's 2010/11. You're making your chip selection for your next consoles launching in 2013. You were Power PC, and you know that PowerPC is not going to exist anymore so it's a jump ball. You know that an APU is critical to the business to sell 100M consoles since you can't integrate or cost-reduce when you use discrete components.

Where do you go? What else was available?

You maybe could have gone to Intel and used their integrated graphics. In which case you get a killer CPU but a so-so GPU (esp. in 2010). You go to Nvidia but then you are ARM which would give awesome GPU but have some pretty big challenges for your existing development pipeline (much different than the situation Switch is dealing with)

It was an attrition and business problem.


Speaking of options any idea if intel was ever considered for next gen? Seems like something intel would be into but their gpu tech might still be too early.
 

elzeus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,887
Speaking of options any idea if intel was ever considered for next gen?
There was a chance when Intel and AMD made a cross-licensing deal for Intel's APU's, but it looks like it never materialized. Intel isn't making the apus with radeon graphics anymore and their next gen gpu tech is coming in a few years and with how they're getting trounced by AMD on the CPU side in terms of cost it probably was a better move not to pursue a deal with Intel. If there were one company out of Sony & Microsoft that could pull off a Switch to Intel I believe it would be Microsoft with their BC wizards.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
It was and is a "shitshow" compared to the rumors that were flying around last year and earlier this year. It was supposed to be much cheaper and more powerful than it ended up being. Unless you're talking about something else?
Adored TV. The guy single handedly drove this Chiplet GPU narrative. He than went onto claim Navi woikd just be GCN with minor modifications. Once he got caught in the blowback, he went full Steve Bannon.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,019
The fact that Sony aligned with their most dangerous competitor says everything.

Microsoft isn't anywhere close to being Sony's most dangerous competitor, even if you restrict it to the "just gaming" space.

Microsoft does not have the ability to compete in a worldwide market. They're a highly regional US/UK only outfit. Nintendo on the other hand IS capable of competing at the worldwide level, and the switch and wii show that they are at least theoretically capable of hitting the 100m mark if the hardware and software are compelling.

The Xbox brand can't do this. I'd even say Steam is a bigger concern in the long run.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
Microsoft isn't anywhere close to being Sony's most dangerous competitor, even if you restrict it to the "just gaming" space.

Microsoft does not have the ability to compete in a worldwide market. They're a highly regional US/UK only outfit. Nintendo on the other hand IS capable of competing at the worldwide level, and the switch and wii show that they are at least theoretically capable of hitting the 100m mark if the hardware and software are compelling.

The Xbox brand can't do this. I'd even say Steam is a bigger concern in the long run.
While you're not wrong about Nintendo's worldwide position, I don't think they compete with Sony either. Nintendo doesn't have that big AAA 3rd party market that PS sells to, so Nintendo's success won't impact Sony much at all (and vice versa). As such, Sony is essentially their own worst enemy and that is the best position to be in.
 
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