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KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
The future of gaming...
It's like, with every day, I'm less convinced about the general feasibility of streaming. First, if you want high res, you need an uncapped high-speed connection, then you have to subscribe, then you have to buy the game, then you can actually play. As long as you keep your subscription.

That's supposed to be a better deal than playing through local hw? I just can't wrap my mind around why big ass companies are pouring money into this.
 

amstradcpc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,768
It's like, with every day, I'm less convinced about the general feasibility of streaming. First, if you want high res, you need an uncapped high-speed connection, then you have to subscribe, then you have to buy the game, then you can actually play. As long as you keep your subscription.

That's supposed to be a better deal than playing through local hw? I just can't wrap my mind around it why big ass companies are pouring money into this.
From its base the business is flawed. The hardware people dont buy has to be freely settled and mantained in huge datacenters. Go figure who will pay the 499 dollars a next gen console will cost in an only streaming service.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
That's supposed to be a better deal than playing through local hw? I just can't wrap my mind around why big ass companies are pouring money into this.
They want to be established in cloud gaming by the time it become viable. They want the headstart. Though what google has done will probably hurt them in the short term more than help them.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Streaming is definitely in the very early stages right now. I admire Google for trying with Stadia, but it feels a bit like they're jumping the gun by launching this as a paid product.

I really want XCloud to succeed though. My dream is to be able to just own a PS5, Switch, and then stream Xbox exclusives I care about via the Cloud.
 

KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
They want to be established in cloud gaming by the time it become viable. They want the headstart. Though what google has done will probably hurt them in the short term more than help them.
If that ever comes. But I'm doubtful. Still, the pricing and the business model is where it falls or wins. Unless it's Netflix, but with games, I don't see it being a better value proposition than local hw gaming.
(The only saving factor might be actual, true, exclusive games taking advantage of the uniqe nature of cloud HW)
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
The stadia "launch" really feels like google went out of their way to make sure it was as bumpy as possible. Lack of registration codes, requiring pixel phone to set up account, controller not working wirelessly with pixel phones, already owned chromecast ultras not being compatible, etc.
It's like, with every day, I'm less convinced about the general feasibility of streaming. First, if you want high res, you need an uncapped high-speed connection, then you have to subscribe, then you have to buy the game, then you can actually play. As long as you keep your subscription.

That's supposed to be a better deal than playing through local hw? I just can't wrap my mind around why big ass companies are pouring money into this.
Streaming is perfectly fine,as we know by now,for "non interactive" entertainment-Netflix/Disney+/HBO Go/zillion other tv services/etc.

But for games...there is simply no reason for streaming to exist,it's a solution looking for a problem.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Ultimately it does because because there is going to be a limit on how high they can clock.

For argument sake

Let's say one console has 48cus @1800mhz = 11.05tf

And another has 52cus @1600mhz = 10.64tf

Now the first option can increase its clock but the 2nd option certainly has more leway.
you are still not makingmuch sense. You said CUs is what matters, but if both have the same amount of CUs, the one with the high clocks will have the more powerful console.

MS can have a 60 CU GPU at 1.6 ghz and that 12 tflops GPU will still be less powerful than a 14 tflops 56 CU GPU at 2.0 ghz.

Adding CUs this late in the R&D cycle is much less likely than upgrading clocks.
 

Deleted member 18951

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,531
Streaming is perfectly fine,as we know by now,for "non interactive" entertainment-Netflix/Disney+/HBO Go/zillion other tv services/etc.

But for games...there is simply no reason for streaming to exist,it's a solution looking for a problem.

Would the problem be that I can't play my Xbox games in bed and the solution is with xCloud I can? Cause getting forty five minutes extra of SoT before I go to sleep has been a revelation.
 

sleepr

Banned for misusing pronouns feature
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,965
Streaming is definitely in the very early stages right now. I admire Google for trying with Stadia, but it feels a bit like they're jumping the gun by launching this as a paid product.

I really want XCloud to succeed though. My dream is to be able to just own a PS5, Switch, and then stream Xbox exclusives I care about via the Cloud.

I'll do exactly that, I plan on buying a PS5 as my main platform and everything else I'll be using streaming.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
you are still not makingmuch sense. You said CUs is what matters, but if both have the same amount of CUs, the one with the high clocks will have the more powerful console.

MS can have a 60 CU GPU at 1.6 ghz and that 12 tflops GPU will still be less powerful than a 14 tflops 56 CU GPU at 2.0 ghz.

Adding CUs this late in the R&D cycle is much less likely than upgrading clocks.

Of course if the cu's are the same it's going to be clocks that determine performance differences, but if they are not I think it's more likely the higher CU machine will be more powerful.

In your example ms could clock there gpu to 1839mhz which would give them 14.1tf
But good luck increasing a 2000mhz clock, that is already ludicrously high for a console. A 239mhz clock bump would be huge for MS but it is possible this far out.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I want to say I'm surprised that Kleegamefan said that PS5's hardware and software are in a more advanced state, but then yeah, this is probably due to MS wanting to keep as much about Scarlett under wraps.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,139
There comes a time where you simply need to let a 6 year old post go. Penello has been on here many times and has been polite and reasonable and given Sony due praise. But if it makes feel good to cite Penello circa 2013, go right ahead...
The last time I saw Panello posting here he was throwing shade towards Mark Cerny, implying that he lied and misled the public about PS5 raytracing capabilities - which it will not have. Only the MS console will have real hardware raytracing, and he should know! I guess to some people that might be considered "praise"?
 

Cyborg

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,955
you are still not makingmuch sense. You said CUs is what matters, but if both have the same amount of CUs, the one with the high clocks will have the more powerful console.

MS can have a 60 CU GPU at 1.6 ghz and that 12 tflops GPU will still be less powerful than a 14 tflops 56 CU GPU at 2.0 ghz.

Adding CUs this late in the R&D cycle is much less likely than upgrading clocks.

Someone explained it here (if I got it correct) that a wider/bigger GPU with more CU's and lower clocks is worse than a smaller GPU with less CU's but higher clockspeed.
 

Dimajjio

Member
Oct 13, 2019
782
I want to say I'm surprised that Kleegamefan said that PS5's hardware and software are in a more advanced state, but then yeah, this is probably due to MS wanting to keep as much about Scarlett under wraps.

I remember seeing in a Digital Foundry vídeo that developers mentioned the PS4's tool chain was better than Microsoft's XDK even though they are the software company. So maybe not too surprising after all.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
The last time I saw Panello posting here he was throwing shade towards Mark Cerny, implying that he lied and misled the public about PS5 raytracing capabilities - which it will not have. Only the MS console will have real hardware raytracing, and he should know! I guess to some people that might be considered "praise"?

Yep, that's all he does on here...

We have to stop pushing the narratives and making technical discussions a proxie battleground in the console wars. Klee says that the PS5 is more powerful than the Scarlett. Great. Then some individual wants to know the delta between the two, in order to weaponize that information.

If I was an insider or in the industry, I would stay the hell away from here. Words get twisted to the point where Penello is throwing shade at Cerny now.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
For a simultaneous worldwide launch they need to start manufacturing from the beginning of the year, for sure (and they'll still be chasing demand well into 2021).

Even for MS, whom i'm Sure won't want to be splitting up the world into 1st and 2nd tier regions again.



Not really true at all. TDP impacts majorly on the cost of the console overall, since it determines the:
  • Cost and complexity of the cooling solution
  • Cost and complexity of the PCB layout
  • Which in turn influences the size, dimensions and weight of the console
  • Which in turn influences the shipping and handling costs for distribution
TDP is largely related to console power consumption which defines the power delivery system and cost and design of the PSU, which also influenced the above.

Overall, TDP will be related to overall console cost with a curve whose gradient increases above a certain inflection point (which will comprise the area around where the sweet spot for design will reside).

This is SO true. Power management determines just about everything.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
8,576
The last time I saw Panello posting here he was throwing shade towards Mark Cerny, implying that he lied and misled the public about PS5 raytracing capabilities - which it will not have. Only the MS console will have real hardware raytracing, and he should know! I guess to some people that might be considered "praise"?
Albert Penello doesnt say anything of that sort? I just skimmed through his post history.

Also he's not even an Xbox employee anymore. Just fanboying like the rest of us (although he could have more info of what MS is doing, but keeping it to himself)

edit: speak of the devil
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
It sounds like Sony is a dev kit revision or two ahead and is overall just further along in the process at the moment.

100%.

Sony received praise for the robustness of their tools with the PS4. It looks like they are on the ball once more with the PS5 tools.

Good for them and the devs.

Some devs are stating that MS has not been as communicative. I think that it is time to open up the gates a little (presuming that they are capable of that at the moment)
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Adding CUs this late in the R&D cycle is much less likely than upgrading clocks.

Not much less likely - virtually impossible. There could be a decision to enable redundant CU's if yields are good (very costly and risky) or you could increase clock speeds which mean you would have to have designed the cooling/case/thermals to handle that incremental draw. Even a 10% increase in clock can have a dramatic effect on reliability and costs.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
Not much less likely - virtually impossible. There could be a decision to enable redundant CU's if yields are good (very costly and risky) or you could increase clock speeds which mean you would have to have designed the cooling/case/thermals to handle that incremental draw. Even a 10% increase in clock can have a dramatic effect on reliability and costs.
Mr Penello what do you think about potential pricing strategy for next gen ($399-$499) ?
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Not much less likely - virtually impossible. There could be a decision to enable redundant CU's if yields are good (very costly and risky) or you could increase clock speeds which mean you would have to have designed the cooling/case/thermals to handle that incremental draw. Even a 10% increase in clock can have a dramatic effect on reliability and costs.
Thanks to bring reasonable to this thread.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
The last time I saw Panello posting here he was throwing shade towards Mark Cerny, implying that he lied and misled the public about PS5 raytracing capabilities - which it will not have. Only the MS console will have real hardware raytracing, and he should know! I guess to some people that might be considered "praise"?

That's a pretty serious mischaracterization so let's be clear.

What I said was, Cerny was not specific in how he described Ray Tracing support for PS5. I claimed, multiple times, that I thought they had HW ray tracing but it was notable that he was not specific. And until he actually said it himself, I was going to consider it a rumor. That's all I said. No shade, no implication of lying.

In fact, it the follow-up interview Cerny himself agreed he wasn't clear.

www.wired.com

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

"Before they do, Cerny wants to clarify something. When we last discussed the forthcoming console, he spoke about its ability to support ray-tracing, a technique that can enable complex lighting and sound effects in 3D environments. Given the many questions he's received since, he fears he may have been ambiguous about how the PS5 would accomplish this—and confirms that it's not a software-level fix, which some had feared. "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for." (A belief born out by my own Twitter mentions, which for a couple of weeks in April made a graphics-rendering technique seem like the only thing the internet had ever cared about.)"
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Mr Penello what do you think about potential pricing strategy for next gen ($399-$499) ?

I can't comment on this as I've said in the past give my knowledge of MS plans (which very well could be outdated at this point). What I've said is that I think Sony is going to target $399 simply given how successful that has been for them with PS4 and Pro. I'm aware I'm the outlier on this thinking.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
Not much less likely - virtually impossible. There could be a decision to enable redundant CU's if yields are good (very costly and risky) or you could increase clock speeds which mean you would have to have designed the cooling/case/thermals to handle that incremental draw. Even a 10% increase in clock can have a dramatic effect on reliability and costs.

Thank you for the information. It is much appreciated.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
I can't comment on this as I've said in the past give my knowledge of MS plans (which very well could be outdated at this point). What I've said is that I think Sony is going to target $399 simply given how successful that has been for them with PS4 and Pro. I'm aware I'm the outlier on this thinking.
This goes in direction of < 10 tflops :)
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Someone explained it here (if I got it correct) that a wider/bigger GPU with more CU's and lower clocks is worse than a smaller GPU with less CU's but higher clockspeed.
higher clocks disproportionately increase TDP. its why console makers have gone wider and slower with the mid gen refreshes and the base console. it might change next gen if they are already including an expensive cooler in the console. so a smaller chip might be cheaper and more viable if they can clock it at 2.0 ghz. that would be your 36 CU GPU at 9.2 tflops.
What I've said is that I think Sony is going to target $399 simply given how successful that has been for them with PS4 and Pro.

Interesting. Was the $399 pricetag the reason why you suggested the 8 tflops PS5 a few months ago?
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
I can't comment on this as I've said in the past give my knowledge of MS plans (which very well could be outdated at this point). What I've said is that I think Sony is going to target $399 simply given how successful that has been for them with PS4 and Pro. I'm aware I'm the outlier on this thinking.
No problem,i understand. Btw, i fully agree with you,i also think Sony will go with $399 price again.And thanks!
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,541
I can't comment on this as I've said in the past give my knowledge of MS plans (which very well could be outdated at this point). What I've said is that I think Sony is going to target $399 simply given how successful that has been for them with PS4 and Pro. I'm aware I'm the outlier on this thinking.

I agree with you on the price. I believe in the two official pieces put out so far, Sony is really driving the idea of the PS5 being really premium, something that will be heavily repeated in the full reveal, so they can come out with the $399 price tag as a "gift" to consumers.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
This goes in direction of < 10 tflops :)

Which is why I'm in the minority. However, I will say there are other parts of they system that could come in lower to keep TFLOPs up. For instance, less overall system memory - given SSD's you could use some of that flash as RAM, or smaller SSD's. Both have challenges and risks. But again, I'm the outlier and will admit I'm not keeping up on the latest rumors.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
If Sony and MS give us the performance that Klee is hinting at, at $399, I think that everyone is going to be a winner.
 

Bosch

Banned
May 15, 2019
3,680
Which is why I'm in the minority. However, I will say there are other parts of they system that could come in lower to keep TFLOPs up. For instance, less overall system memory - given SSD's you could use some of that flash as RAM, or smaller SSD's. Both have challenges and risks. But again, I'm the outlier and will admit I'm not keeping up on the latest rumors.
Thanks for the reply and I'm with you.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
That's a pretty serious mischaracterization so let's be clear.

What I said was, Cerny was not specific in how he described Ray Tracing support for PS5. I claimed, multiple times, that I thought they had HW ray tracing but it was notable that he was not specific. And until he actually said it himself, I was going to consider it a rumor. That's all I said. No shade, no implication of lying.

In fact, it the follow-up interview Cerny himself agreed he wasn't clear.

www.wired.com

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.

"Before they do, Cerny wants to clarify something. When we last discussed the forthcoming console, he spoke about its ability to support ray-tracing, a technique that can enable complex lighting and sound effects in 3D environments. Given the many questions he's received since, he fears he may have been ambiguous about how the PS5 would accomplish this—and confirms that it's not a software-level fix, which some had feared. "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for." (A belief born out by my own Twitter mentions, which for a couple of weeks in April made a graphics-rendering technique seem like the only thing the internet had ever cared about.)"
No shade detected. I remember the discussion.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
Which is why I'm in the minority. However, I will say there are other parts of they system that could come in lower to keep TFLOPs up. For instance, less overall system memory - given SSD's you could use some of that flash as RAM, or smaller SSD's. Both have challenges and risks. But again, I'm the outlier and will admit I'm not keeping up on the latest rumors.
Yeah,i think they will try to cut costs next gen with smaller amount of overall RAM (16GB) and smaller internal SSD (~512GB or so) in order to achieve $399 price.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
higher clocks disproportionately increase TDP. its why console makers have gone wider and slower with the mid gen refreshes and the base console. it might change next gen if they are already including an expensive cooler in the console. so a smaller chip might be cheaper and more viable if they can clock it at 2.0 ghz. that would be your 36 CU GPU at 9.2 tflops.


Interesting. Was the $399 pricetag the reason why you suggested the 8 tflops PS5 a few months ago?

Yes, exactly. I have said for a while I think thought Sony would target mid-8 tflops (+/- 10% which could put them in the low 9's) but that was based on my belief around $399. I also knew (now known by others post AMD disclosures) that the effectiveness of a next-gen TFLOP was higher than the current gen.

I don't want to stirr anything up again because I know this is not a popular POV, and a lot can change in the 2.5 years between when I left and when they launch. If I'm wrong, that's fine. But that's my guess. If they go $499 there is a lot of room on TFLOPS, cooling, etc.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
Or simply that more than ever TFs aren't the be all and end all.

I honestly think that Spencer is onto something when he talks about a balanced system, where components are paired intelligently as to reduce bottlenecks.

Just like we moved away from the number of bits to indicate a console's strength, I think we shall move away from a raw FLOP count as a sole indicator.
 
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