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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Speaking of Rockstar, is there any indication whatsoever of GTAV next gen remaster.. They could pump out that game AGAIN with some better efftcs and visuals all round and charge us all over again for it. We'd buy it too.
I think there may be some confusion here over how BC is handled.
In theory, BC is essentially non legacy hardware behaving as close as possible to the legacy hardware in order to run legacy software. So the PS5 in PS4 BC mode will appear to the application like a PS4.
I'm thus, not sure how easy it would be for devs to do cross-gen games using BC as a single binary while also including significant next-gen console enhancements. The game code cannot use rendering API calls not supported by the legacy console, for example, because the PS5 running the PS4 binary in BC mode appears as a PS4 only.
It maybe true that the BC emalation software layer is able to do some clever API code injections on the fly (akin to reshade on PC) to leverage some of the more advanced next-gen console functionality.
On the other hand, I think it would be much easier for devs to fully take advantage of next-gen hardware in cross-gen games by developing a separate binary for the next-gen consoles. It would be more space efficient too, as your PS4 version wouldn't need to install the 100s of GB of hi fidely PS5 textures and assets that it can't access (although this could be handled with a post disc install download, like it is for some XB1X/Pro games).
Maybe that's why they didn't do a mid gen refresh version.
Release it at 29.99 for launch and I'm there.
They can offer the separate "PS5 version" upgrade as a standalone big upgrade in a separate downlaod sections like what they are offering as 4K textures for example and this may transform the already owned PS4 version to a real PS5 version without having to release a separate PS5 version and without forcing PS4 and PS4 Pro owners to downlaod PS5 upgrades in thei PS4 files and bloat the whole packagae on last-gen by only allowing such upgrade pack via PS5 only. Just hoping all devs won't be charging players who already purchased the PS4 version.
Games do not use an NV API to add RT to their games, rather Vulkan or the DX Standard. The NV driver takes these calls and farms off bits of them, the ray intersection cast and call bit to the RT cores to accellerate it. The API from VK or DXR is a way of streamlining and unifying the ability for the hardware acceleration to occur across all games without devs needing to write that bit themselves.
So it is about ease of use for Integration (standaedisation) AND performance to fit the HW acceleration available.
^Will ps5 support dx12/dxr like scarlett? i know dx12 support on xbox one amounted to absolutely nothing last gen but with dxr, it has to be a bigger plus, right?
DirectX is owned by Microsoft, so no. They'll have their own API (what was it called, GNMX?)
Interesting,this is about thermal performance of 8C/16T 3700x,same CPU we will get in consoles:
"So, what did we learn from this test? Well, I think what we learned is that there are no tips, tricks, secrets, or techniques for getting significantly better thermal performance out of your cooler when it's trying to cool a Ryzen 3000 CPU. Whatever the reason for that is, it is absolutely clear that Ryzen 3000 has very poor thermal performance.
I believe the larger factor is that Ryzen 3000 is simply very dense. We're getting to the point where performance gains on new nodes are actually slowing down because the transistors are getting packed closer and closer together while consuming the same amount of power and thus producing the same amount of heat. Less surface area is going to mean less area to spread heat from, and consequentially that hurts thermal performance.
So, in summary, Ryzen 3000 has very strange thermal behavior that demands further testing which will be done in future reviews. It needs to be determined whether or not these CPUs actually benefit from higher end cooling solutions and, if so, which ones and why."
Console APUs will obviously need a very good cooler...
"So, what did we learn from this test? Well, I think what we learned is that there are no tips, tricks, secrets, or techniques for getting significantly better thermal performance out of your cooler when it's trying to cool a Ryzen 3000 CPU. Whatever the reason for that is, it is absolutely clear that Ryzen 3000 has very poor thermal performance.
I believe the larger factor is that Ryzen 3000 is simply very dense. We're getting to the point where performance gains on new nodes are actually slowing down because the transistors are getting packed closer and closer together while consuming the same amount of power and thus producing the same amount of heat. Less surface area is going to mean less area to spread heat from, and consequentially that hurts thermal performance.
So, in summary, Ryzen 3000 has very strange thermal behavior that demands further testing which will be done in future reviews. It needs to be determined whether or not these CPUs actually benefit from higher end cooling solutions and, if so, which ones and why."
Console APUs will obviously need a very good cooler...
To me this confirms a 56 cu 12-14 tflops gpu. Shadows and reflections in an open world game at native 4k 30 fps simply cannot be done on a 8 tflops gpu. Or whatever 36-40 cu gpu dr.keo thinks they are cooking up.
Now granted the pc games im running on my rtx 2080 are at 60 fps but i struggle to hit 1440p 60 fps with a singleray tracing effect on. Something that runs multiple effects with next gen visuals is surely running on something at least as powerful as a rtx 2080.
the thing to be aware of though is thermals are experimental, desktop chips run over 4ghz, both the scarlet and ps5 will be at a locked 3.2. way less heat.
You can dramatically cheapen the cost of RT reflections by just having them only be highly coherent rays (so ultra sharp reflections) and then changing their sharpnesd or softness in a post process manner. They are not PBR compliant or accurate actually, but they are way cheaper. SSR in decima is done this way for example, or in Cryengine or Lots of other games since it is cheaper than Stochastik methods. It can be done for RT reflections as well. BFV DXR on low works most like this and so does the RT reflections implemented by Morgan McGuire into unity.
This was a hot topic back in july, when the chips released. The testing was done as well:
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Consoles also have smaller enclosures, worse airflow, poorer cooling. Though I'm sure whatever they need to dissipate at 3.2ghz is much much less than at 4ghz.
I mean the x had good colling, and it seems both sony/ms are going too do that for base hardware this time around.
Seems so. I don't mind if the box is big or small (smaller is just sexier though..) but please Sony put in a good quiet cooling solution. It's a quality of life issue more than anything but a nice QoL to have in your potentially £500 premium piece of tech.
I'm on the opposite spectrum of this, hype can't be any higher for me!
Same. I'm excited to see games that verge on photorealistic which is what I'm honestly expecting next gen (with good Devs and a big budget of course). I watched the Digital Foundry Death Stranding video and the vistas in that game look breathtaking at times. RDR2 as well. Imagining what's possible with a humungous leap in tech is mouthwatering. Make me feel like I'm there. Combined with the gameplay improvements we should expect from the leap in processing and memory.. wow I just can't wait. I want to soak up all the atmosphere lol.
I'm so tired of saving the world... Just give me a dense lonely forest where I can fear God in peace!
I think we are starting to see smaller themes trickle into narratives.
Not really. It had quieter cooling in the consoles that had better chips. The consoles with poorer chips that needed more juice were LOUD.
I mean good cooling for a console. if you want quiet cooling, go a pc with watter cooling. you never getting anything that good on a console.
M. Night Shyamalan is out there somewhere nodding emphatically
This was a hot topic back in july, when the chips released. The testing was done as well:
I might be being a little dense, but I can't make heads nor tails of what this graph is trying to say?
Is it a temperature profile or curve for a clocks vs core temp of the CPU in question? It almost looks like temps decrease with increasing clockspeed which just doesn't sound right.
Yes, not necessarily, not really.
Console's that draw less than 150W at the wall will not need to dissipate as much heat as a desktop PC that can draw in excess of 450W. So in relatives terms, console's cooling systems are designed to be adequate for their application.
Console acoustic performance is worse (in general), but that's a separate issue. It's driven by case size and cost constraints not anything to do with the cooling system design per se.
frequency vs temp plot. They used liquid nitrogen to plot frequency response to temp changes. Left side of graph is meant to represent typical air cooling in a desktop setting. As you move right, they show the temps you need to be at in order to reach indicated frequencies.
I hope PS5 and Scarlett are both at least a bit north of 200W.
5nm EUV should be able to bring power consumption down considerably with slim models in 2023.
5nm EUV should be able to bring power consumption down considerably with slim models in 2023.
There is a much better analysis with actual heat measurement of the hotspots by IgorsLab. One of the outcomes were that current coolers actually don't always cover the hotspots entirely. Below the link to the video on the topic.
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I'm sure I've asked this before, but is there a checkerboard rendering equivalent to ray tracing? So a way to project fewer rays but then "checkerboard render" them up to a higher resolution?
Also, Kleegamefan I thank you for your exciting tidbits. I don't suppose you've learned anything about the 3D audio tech used in the PS5, have you? I'm still hopeful it'll be an extension of Sony's new 360 Reality Audio tech and that they'll be building it into Wwise for broader distribution. Also, I recall you mentioning your friend did not want to discuss the PS5's SSD solution at all. I'm still wondering if ReRAM could play a part in that. After thinking about it more I don't think the PS5's entire storage would be ReRAM because then they wouldn't call it an SSD, right? It'd probably have a new name to differentiate it I would imagine, or am I wrong and a ReRAM drive would still be considered an SSD?
Wow, everything we're hearing about next gen is friggin' incredible so far. Graphics that feel like real generational leap. Physics that just weren't remotely possible on current gen machines. 3D audio that will hopefully provide a great leap over past platforms. Loading times that're virtually instant. Controllers with far more extensive haptic feedback to let you feel the game world. I am so excited for next gen I can't wait!!! Next gen PSVR is gonna blow my mind, I'm sure. PLEASE Sony, I hope you're working on VR gloves!
Also, Kleegamefan I thank you for your exciting tidbits. I don't suppose you've learned anything about the 3D audio tech used in the PS5, have you? I'm still hopeful it'll be an extension of Sony's new 360 Reality Audio tech and that they'll be building it into Wwise for broader distribution. Also, I recall you mentioning your friend did not want to discuss the PS5's SSD solution at all. I'm still wondering if ReRAM could play a part in that. After thinking about it more I don't think the PS5's entire storage would be ReRAM because then they wouldn't call it an SSD, right? It'd probably have a new name to differentiate it I would imagine, or am I wrong and a ReRAM drive would still be considered an SSD?
Wow, everything we're hearing about next gen is friggin' incredible so far. Graphics that feel like real generational leap. Physics that just weren't remotely possible on current gen machines. 3D audio that will hopefully provide a great leap over past platforms. Loading times that're virtually instant. Controllers with far more extensive haptic feedback to let you feel the game world. I am so excited for next gen I can't wait!!! Next gen PSVR is gonna blow my mind, I'm sure. PLEASE Sony, I hope you're working on VR gloves!
Hmm, interesting. So let's consider the fact that Cerny noted the PS5s SSD is faster than any commercial solution on the market. True this was before PCIe4 and we all assumed this was just a technicality due to the timing of the Wired article, but what if they are aiming to have the fastest storage solution at launch? Then consider we know devs are VERY tight-lipped over the PS5s SSD, why would they be? If it's just a normal SSD on PCIe4 then why the need for ultra high secrecy? Now we also know of that patent Sony has for storage that seems to indicate enhanced performance because it's designed around being used in a console rather than being a more general purpose drive you would use in a PC, is there any reason this patent couldn't be applied to a ReRAM drive? And we also know Sony is planning to jump into ReRAM production and the announcement of that intent came in 2017 when they apparently decided to push the PS5 launch from 2019 to 2020.
One of those Reddit rumors, if you want to believe them did mention the dev was surprised at how much faster the PS5 devkit was at booting up compared to the Scarlett devkit.
The biggest arguments against ReRAM is whether it'll be ready in time and the price. I feel if they can overcome those factors then they'll want to push to include this tech in the PS5. It gives the PS5 a nice performance advantage and Playstation instantly becomes the largest buyer to their semiconductor division for this new tech which helps demo its potential to the world and other potential buyers.
Imagine a new version of Dreams made for PS5 that lets you make games and animations easily, that look like this (except in 4K instead of 480p).
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I could only see the first video, but Dreams already looks better than that.
For me it is more about animation, fluidity and style, rather than graphical detail. It's also very much about the tools. Dreams on PS4 is amazing but with PS5 and more even advanced tools, the canvas on which users can create their vision could be far beyond what Dreams can do now.
Edit: fixed the link for the second video.
vivftp I actually assume that the SSD will be something custom and very expensive if you want to exchange it for something bigger. Sony's new memory card if you will. Seems to be Cerny's thing. I hope I'm actually wrong and they do some sort of tiered solution, where you still can install a 2.5" Drive.
Going by their SSD patent, it stated that the customisations made actually reduced costs, so I dunno.
Either way, they're not going to let you install inferior drives.
In fairness, MW is 60fps while the game you saw was 30fps, correct?
Thank you for your sacfrice
GoFundMe for Klee's new socks
From what I understand, current RTX already sort of does this. It uses less rays than are actually acceptable for a clean RT image, then uses a process called 'denoising' to clean it up, which is cheaper than just brute forcing with more rays. But I don't understand it in any detail so someone else should probably elaborate or correct me.
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