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How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 33 1.5%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 48 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 318 14.4%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 1,060 48.0%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 449 20.3%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 100 4.5%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 202 9.1%

  • Total voters
    2,210
Status
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Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,846
Don't know why this hasn't comeo our Radar.

AMD-Radeon-RX-5500-Series-Navi-14-Graphics-Card_1-1030x545.jpg


Now, what this means for next-gen.

  • think we are seeing a clear indication o AMDs upgrade(downgrade) path for their RDNA architecture.
  • What we are basically looking at is a GPU made from one "half" of a ful RDNA Graphic array. However, they increased the number of WGPs from 10 in the 5700 to 12 in the 5500.
  • This could very well mean that the 5800 (whenever that comes out) will have a total of 24 WGPs (48CU) which is likely what we get in next-gen consoles.
  • Also, notice that one of the WGPs was disabled also suggesting that in each graphic arrary one would need to be disabled. meaning that the next-gen consoles would end up with 44CU active of their 48CU total.
  • The entire GPU has a TBP of 110W (that's total board power)
  • Also, this is the first mainstream card that is using 16Gb GDDR6 chips. And the entire GPU is coming in at under $150 which bodes well when considering the cost of GDDR6.
  • Chip size 158mm2. That bodes well for having a chip twice as large along with a CPU all coming in at under or around 350mm2
  • Graphic Chip "nominal" power consumption of the M variant is 85W.
It's good to know RDNA is scalable up to 12 WGPs by shader engines. 44 CUs at 2ghz is 11.3 tflops. That frequency would be nuts (and awesome) in a consumer console.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Don't know why this hasn't comeo our Radar.

AMD-Radeon-RX-5500-Series-Navi-14-Graphics-Card_1-1030x545.jpg


Now, what this means for next-gen.

  • think we are seeing a clear indication o AMDs upgrade(downgrade) path for their RDNA architecture.
  • What we are basically looking at is a GPU made from one "half" of a ful RDNA Graphic array. However, they increased the number of WGPs from 10 in the 5700 to 12 in the 5500.
  • This could very well mean that the 5800 (whenever that comes out) will have a total of 24 WGPs (48CU) which is likely what we get in next-gen consoles.
  • Also, notice that one of the WGPs was disabled also suggesting that in each graphic arrary one would need to be disabled. meaning that the next-gen consoles would end up with 44CU active of their 48CU total.
  • The entire GPU has a TBP of 110W (that's total board power)
  • Also, this is the first mainstream card that is using 16Gb GDDR6 chips. And the entire GPU is coming in at under $150 which bodes well when considering the cost of GDDR6.
  • Chip size 158mm2. That bodes well for having a chip twice as large along with a CPU all coming in at under or around 350mm2
  • Graphic Chip "nominal" power consumption of the M variant is 85W.
Important point is that these cards have a memory interface half the width of 5700, so that's going to lower the power somewhat. These cards only need 4 physical memory chips.

_________________________________

N7+ now has consumer products headed to market.

 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,187
Don't know why this hasn't comeo our Radar.

AMD-Radeon-RX-5500-Series-Navi-14-Graphics-Card_1-1030x545.jpg


Now, what this means for next-gen.

  • think we are seeing a clear indication o AMDs upgrade(downgrade) path for their RDNA architecture.
  • What we are basically looking at is a GPU made from one "half" of a ful RDNA Graphic array. However, they increased the number of WGPs from 10 in the 5700 to 12 in the 5500.
  • This could very well mean that the 5800 (whenever that comes out) will have a total of 24 WGPs (48CU) which is likely what we get in next-gen consoles.
  • Also, notice that one of the WGPs was disabled also suggesting that in each graphic arrary one would need to be disabled. meaning that the next-gen consoles would end up with 44CU active of their 48CU total.
These are the same assumptions I had when I read the news. 44 CUs seems like the sweet spot. 10.1 TF at 1800MHz, 11.3 at 2000MHz. Based on this, that's the range I'm estimating for PS5 as of now.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
It's good to know RDNA is scalable up to 12 WGPs by shader engines. 44 CUs at 2ghz is 11.3 tflops. That frequency would be nuts (and awesome) in a consumer console.
idk... I am not too confident about the whole 2Ghz thing. I think at best we see 1800Mhz/1850Mhz.
These are the same assumptions I had when I read the news. 44 CUs seems like the sweet spot. 10.1 TF at 1800MHz, 11.3 at 2000MHz. Based on this, that's the range I'm estimating for PS5 as of now.

N7+ now has consumer products headed to market.

[/QUOTE]
I saw that too... is 7nm+ even on possible for next-gen consoles though? like is the current architecture adaptable to that process node? And if it is, and say the next-gen consoles are going with a 44CU layout, doesn't that mean it could be easier for them to hit that 2Ghz clock? Or do you think its more likely they keep the clocks at around 1.8Ghz to keep power draw lower?
 
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Cyborg

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,955
idk... I am not too confident about the whole 2Ghz thing. I think at best we see 1800Mhz/1850Mhz.

Yup, same here. I would love 2Ghz, but everything inside me is telling me its going to be something like 1.8Ghz/1.85Ghz. I would even go as far as saying that the difference between the PS5 and Scar could be anything between 50Mhz and 100Mhz in GPU clocks.

Can you overclock the GPU in a console later on? Lets say they start with 1.85 and end up in two years at 2.0?
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Can you overclock the GPU in a console later on? Lets say they start with 1.85 and end up in two years at 2.0?
Well yes, you can. And there are two ways that can happen, first is like with say the PSP where new firmware just clocked the chip higher with no change in hardware needed. Second could be as a result of a better manufacturing process or he uses f better coolers. The first method is more generalized and would impact all consoles in the platform. The second will only be on consoles made after a specific date.

However, I don't see them doing either though. And what really would be the point? the platform will still be defined by whatever you brought to the market on launch day. And if they had a +100-200Mhz headroom the chip, trust me they would know that months before the console is launched.
 

Locuza

Member
Mar 6, 2018
380
Don't know why this hasn't comeo our Radar.

AMD-Radeon-RX-5500-Series-Navi-14-Graphics-Card_1-1030x545.jpg


Now, what this means for next-gen.

  • think we are seeing a clear indication o AMDs upgrade(downgrade) path for their RDNA architecture.
  • What we are basically looking at is a GPU made from one "half" of a ful RDNA Graphic array. However, they increased the number of WGPs from 10 in the 5700 to 12 in the 5500.
  • This could very well mean that the 5800 (whenever that comes out) will have a total of 24 WGPs (48CU) which is likely what we get in next-gen consoles.
  • Also, notice that one of the WGPs was disabled also suggesting that in each graphic arrary one would need to be disabled. meaning that the next-gen consoles would end up with 44CU active of their 48CU total.
  • The entire GPU has a TBP of 110W (that's total board power)
  • Also, this is the first mainstream card that is using 16Gb GDDR6 chips. And the entire GPU is coming in at under $150 which bodes well when considering the cost of GDDR6.
  • Chip size 158mm2. That bodes well for having a chip twice as large along with a CPU all coming in at under or around 350mm2
  • Graphic Chip "nominal" power consumption of the M variant is 85W.
The 5700 has 36 CUs vs. 40 on Navi10.
If AMD disables two WGPs than there are indeed Shader-Arrays with more WGPs than the others.
But for consoles I wouldn't expect a configuration with different sizes.

The 5500 is using 14Gbps memory like Navi10:
https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/amd-radeon-rx-5500

The 2x peak bw vs. GDDR5 is as such a general statement which isn't correct either.

If consoles use a unified memory system again how much of a performance impact is the higher latency memory going to have on the cpu? You look at the differences in performance between ddr4 speeds on the new ryzen cpus and it can be substantial.

I don't know how much slower latency wise gddr is vs ddr but with lower clocks and higher latency ram the pc will still probably have some headroom.
The latency between the DDR3-2133 memory of the Xbox One and the GDDR5-5500 on the PS4 was roughly equal.
For the Xbox One X (GDDR5-6600) MS said that the memory latency for the CPU could be up to 20% lower than on the Xbox One.
Microsoft-Xbox-One-X-Scorpio-Engine-Hot-Chips-29-05.png


But now comparing it to the PC field, where you can not only use very high clocked memory but also go very low on many sub-timings, that won't be applicable on consoles, you always need a safety margin.
With 14Gbps GDDR6 vs. stock DDR4 memory solutions like 3000/3200 I wouldn't expect a meaningful perf-boost or degradation in CPU performance.

As far as I know there are no benchmarks in that regard.
Like you could benchmark Raven-Ridge, 4 Zen Cores + Vega with 11 CUs + 128-Bit DDR4 vs. the Subor-Z China console with also 4 Zen Cores + Vega with 24 CUs + 256-Bit GDDR5 running at 8Gbps and see what results you would get in terms of memory latency but last time I checked there were no such benchmarks.
 

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
whats the rdna efficiency compared to southern island gpu's? I would like to see increase from base consoles instead of Polaris.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
But now comparing it to the PC field, where you can not only use very high clocked memory but also go very low on many sub-timings, that won't be applicable on consoles, you always need a safety margin.
With 14Gbps GDDR6 vs. stock DDR4 memory solutions like 3000/3200 I wouldn't expect a meaningful perf-boost or degradation in CPU performance.

As far as I know there are no benchmarks in that regard.
Like you could benchmark Raven-Ridge, 4 Zen Cores + Vega with 11 CUs + 128-Bit DDR4 vs. the Subor-Z China console with also 4 Zen Cores + Vega with 24 CUs + 256-Bit GDDR5 running at 8Gbps and see what results you would get in terms of memory latency but last time I checked there were no such benchmarks.
AMD-Flute-semicustom-APU-Zen-2-konzole-UserBenchmark-2.png

How you interpret leaked AMD Flute benchmark (poor latency) ?
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
The 5700 has 36 CUs vs. 40 on Navi10.
If AMD disables two WGPs than there are indeed Shader-Arrays with more WGPs than the others.
But for consoles I wouldn't expect a configuration with different sizes.

The 5500 is using 14Gbps memory like Navi10:
https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/amd-radeon-rx-5500

No.. well yes and no. I am not talking about the 5700 per say but the family of 5700 GPUs (aka Navi 10). Both the 5700 and the 5700XT have 20 WGPs (10/shader engine and uses 2 shader engines). The only difference is that in the 5700 2 of those WGPs are disabled.

the 5500 (Navi ??) has 12 WGPs of which one is disabled. Its also using only 1 shader engine as opposed to the pair f shader engines used in the navi 10.

Maybe I am not understanding you properly and we are saying the same thing.
 

EsqBob

Member
Nov 7, 2017
241
Where are all the awesome gifs we used to have? Do they come only after they show the consoles or before E3?
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Shader Arrays vs. Shader Engines. Navi 10 has 2 Shader Engines with 2 Shader Arrays each and, by disabling only one WGP per Engine, they have Arrays with different numbers of WGPs within each Engine.
Oh yh that makes sense now.

In which case we can say Navi 10 has a total of 4 shader arrays and 2 shader engines. Whereas the 5500 has only 2 arrays and 1 shader engine. Thanks for clearing that up.
Based on all the nitty-gritty technical talk, I'm guessing we don't have any new rumors huh?
I think we have beter than rumors now. The 5500 GPU could infer a lot on what we can expect from the next-gen consoles. We at least don'thave to be guessing if a 48CU GPU is a possibility anymore. We could even infer n how much power such a GPU can consume with a little flexible math comparing the 5700 vs the 5500.
 

Locuza

Member
Mar 6, 2018
380
AMD-Flute-semicustom-APU-Zen-2-konzole-UserBenchmark-2.png

How you interpret leaked AMD Flute benchmark (poor latency) ?
In that early state and with no further information about the real clock and software state of the whole system I don't interpret anything.
Maybe someone else likes to think about it but I'm too lazy at this state :p

Score wise it's quite close to a regular 2700 @ 3.4 Ghz if the avg. number from userbenchmark is trustworthy:
https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/AMD-Ryzen-7-2700/Rating/3957


No.. well yes and no. I am not talking about the 5700 per say but the family of 5700 GPUs (aka Navi 10). Both the 5700 and the 5700XT have 20 WGPs (10/shader engine and uses 2 shader engines). The only difference is that in the 5700 2 of those WGPs are disabled.

the 5500 (Navi ??) has 12 WGPs of which one is disabled. Its also using only 1 shader engine as opposed to the pair f shader engines used in the navi 10.

Maybe I am not understanding you properly and we are saying the same thing.
No.. well yes and no. ^^
I just re-read again and well I just put it that way:

It's 12 WGPs (24 CUs = 1536 ALUs) on Navi14, 5500 uses 11 WGPs (22 CUs = 1408 ALUs).
Since it has two Shader-Arrays it means that one Array has 5 WGPs and the other one has 6 WGPs.
Like on the 5700 you have an imbalance of resources.
On consoles they could do it that way or for better load balancing looking for an even configuration.
Let's say in theory there are 24 WGPs/48 CUs/3072 ALUs then they would have 4 Shader-Arrays each one with 6 WGPs.
Now they deactivie one WGP in every SA and they get 20 WGPs/40 CUs/2560 ALUs.
With that they would obviously disable a lot of resources however every Shader Array would have 5 WGPs.
So depending on the configuration they either have a bit of imbalance or disable a larger amount of compute power.

After the Navi10 launch and the presentations I'm more inclined to believe that AMD disables in WGP granularity (128 ALUs) but in the beginning I also was thinking about the possability of disabling half of one WGP and run it in CU-Mode, that way you could get nice load balancing (on that level but potentially worse on another) and would disable compute resources in a finer granularity of 64 ALUs.

But obviously looking at the 5700 there isn't any kind of remarkable issue with the uneven configuration.
So actually your idea might be the preferable one instead of cutting down too much.
 

neptunez

Member
Apr 21, 2018
1,864
Based on the power draw for the CPU are we expecting a larger (and louder) cooling solution than last gen?
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
I think we have beter than rumors now. The 5500 GPU could infer a lot on what we can expect from the next-gen consoles. We at least don'thave to be guessing if a 48CU GPU is a possibility anymore. We could even infer n how much power such a GPU can consume with a little flexible math comparing the 5700 vs the 5500.

Seems cool for the folks who like the technical side. I've never been too concerned with the technical side of consoles. Just show me the games, OS, box design, and tell me when/where to buy it.
 

kostacurtas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,063
Even this smallish Navi 14 card is power hungry:

This is what happens when your architecture isn't as efficient even when you have a process node advantage (AMD vs NVIDIA).

AMD is pushing the chips beyond their sweet spot so they can gain any possible performance and even if they sacrifice the optimal power consumption/thermals.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
This is what happens when your architecture isn't as efficient even when you have a process node advantage (AMD vs NVIDIA).

AMD is pushing the chips beyond their sweet spot so they can gain any possible performance and even if they sacrifice the optimal power consumption/thermals.

Indeed.I dunno,i am getting increasingly skeptical we will get that 2 GHz Oberon Navi clock in PS5 APU.I just don't see how they will put that in a small console box and what cooling solution it would require.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,595
Indeed.I dunno,i am getting increasingly skeptical we will get that 2 GHz Oberon Navi clock in PS5 APU.I just don't see how they will put that in a small console box and what cooling solution it would require.

I had some skepticism regarding the high clocks of Gonzalo/Oberon etc

Then what the dev kits looked like was leaked:

ps5-playstation-5-sony-1.original.jpg


Looks like they have a pretty extreme cooling solution built in. A solution that would certainly not be required for the current RDNA and Zen chips.

All the Gonazlo/Oberon/Flute leaks are legit, they always were. They have to be, what else could they be? And the same methodology identified the PS4 and PS4Pro APUs before they came out. The high clocks were the only thing that was suspicious, but if you had clocks like that you would need a dev kit that looks like the PS5 dev kits.

If they were running with an 8TF RDNA GPU they wouldn't need a dev kit with that kind of cooling solution.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I had some skepticism regarding the high clocks of Gonzalo/Oberon etc

Then what the dev kits looked like was leaked:

ps5-playstation-5-sony-1.original.jpg


Looks like they have a pretty extreme cooling solution built in. A solution that would certainly not be required for the current RDNA and Zen chips.

All the Gonazlo/Oberon/Flute leaks are legit, they always were. They have to be, what else could they be? And the same methodology identified the PS4 and PS4Pro APUs before they came out. The high clocks were the only thing that was suspicious, but if you had clocks like that you would need a dev kit that looks like the PS5 dev kits.

If they were running with an 8TF RDNA GPU they wouldn't need a dev kit with that kind of cooling solution.

No it does not look like an extreme cooling solution its just has more vents so its the shape of a V, it could have less cooling then the PS4 dev kit.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,836
Don't know why this hasn't comeo our Radar.

AMD-Radeon-RX-5500-Series-Navi-14-Graphics-Card_1-1030x545.jpg


Now, what this means for next-gen.

  • think we are seeing a clear indication o AMDs upgrade(downgrade) path for their RDNA architecture.
  • What we are basically looking at is a GPU made from one "half" of a ful RDNA Graphic array. However, they increased the number of WGPs from 10 in the 5700 to 12 in the 5500.
  • This could very well mean that the 5800 (whenever that comes out) will have a total of 24 WGPs (48CU) which is likely what we get in next-gen consoles.
  • Also, notice that one of the WGPs was disabled also suggesting that in each graphic arrary one would need to be disabled. meaning that the next-gen consoles would end up with 44CU active of their 48CU total.
  • The entire GPU has a TBP of 110W (that's total board power)
  • Also, this is the first mainstream card that is using 16Gb GDDR6 chips. And the entire GPU is coming in at under $150 which bodes well when considering the cost of GDDR6.
  • Chip size 158mm2. That bodes well for having a chip twice as large along with a CPU all coming in at under or around 350mm2
  • Graphic Chip "nominal" power consumption of the M variant is 85W.
Very interesting.
44CU clocked at 1900MHz will match stadia 10.7TF, will be interesting if that is what we end up getting
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Yeah, they probably just added more vents for fun.
Lol... it was either that or they added RGB.
Very interesting.
44CU clocked at 1900MHz will match stadia 10.7TF, will be interesting if that is what we end up getting
Don't forget that Stadia's 10.7TY is GCN. Even if they had only 9TFthey would have surpassed it. Idk about that 1900MHz clock though. 1800/1850 really does seem like the sweet spot.
 
OP
OP
Mecha Meister

Mecha Meister

Next-Gen Guru
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,803
United Kingdom
Having seen that we're closing in on 20,000 posts, I decided now would be a good time to get some ideas for the next thread's title!

Here's some to start us off!

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - V is for Ventilation
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - They probably just added more vents for fun

I'm sorry!
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Having seen that we're closing in on 20,000 posts, I decided now would be a good time to get some ideas for the next thread's title!

Here's some to start us off!

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - V is for Ventilation
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - They probably just added more vents for fun

I'm sorry!

tenor.gif
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Having seen that we're closing in on 20,000 posts, I decided now would be a good time to get some ideas for the next thread's title!

Here's some to start us off!

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - V is for Ventilation
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - They probably just added more vents for fun

I'm sorry!
|OT7| - United Nations Ambassador Jeff Rigby Approved
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,836
Lol... it was either that or they added RGB.

Don't forget that Stadia's 10.7TY is GCN. Even if they had only 9TFthey would have surpassed it. Idk about that 1900MHz clock though. 1800/1850 really does seem like the sweet spot.
Oh i am well aware about the architectural difference at this point, i was thinking more about the marketing. I imagine that they really want to reach/surpass stadia TF number (like jason schreier said).
 
Sep 28, 2019
174
No it does not look like an extreme cooling solution its just has more vents so its the shape of a V, it could have less cooling then the PS4 dev kit.

I am thinking your wrong:

i quote myself :

9pvcvlglmoi31.jpg

So i made up a crude Sketch of that PS5 Dev Kit internals using one of those Patent Skeches . I think that, as you can see, that those both "Arms" of that "V" are actually 2 Heatsinks. I assume here that on the outside are 1-3 Fans wich suck cool Air through that heatsink. Both Heatsinks are connected with the APU by heatpipes . To me , it seems (if iam right)to be a smart solution. It completly sepaerates the PS5 into 2 Areas one side wich produce Heat and one side that gets rid of it. Also it is a very clear Language in terms of Airflow.Like : Cool from front and top. Warm to sides and back. Very clean, very no bullshit approach.That pink line i put into to indicate roughly the hight of a vanilla PS4. Wich suggests that all that funny upper part of the body are only there for the cooling solution. One could cool a PS4 with such a Method , basicly double its height.
Wich brings me right to the Final Release PS5. People look at that Patent Sketch an be like : ,,I never put such a thing under my TV"But what People do not understand is that this Dev kit Design can be transformed pretty easily into a release PS5.
Imagine the front with less USB Ports and no funny lights above the Disk insert. Then remove in your mind those scary looking vents on the sides and use more moderate looking ones. The next step is to cover those 2 openings of the "V" in front and on top with some kind of air pervious plastic grid. And there you go, the coming PS5 could actually stay with the same design Language as a PS4 Pro.So what you are thinking - me right or wrong :D
PS - i hope i made not too many grammar mistakes since iam a non native english speaker
[/QUOTE]

so you see clearly by the pink line that that whole V thing is on top of the size of an PS4 - so everything in there could be for cooling.. and it definatly will be.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I am thinking your wrong:

i quote myself :


I'm not wrong, because I'm saying that dev kit design does not prove anything, it could have a cooling system far better then anything been in a console before it, or it could also just have somthing a bit better then the 1Xs or it could have something as good as the pros.
Personally I think PS5 and Scarlett will have cooling solution a bit better then scarletts, but that PS5 Dev kit design does not give use a particular visual indication of what the cooling system might be, sure it has lots of vents but that could also mean it's just very efficient, it could mean many things.
Your speculation is interesting though.

Wasent there a dev or some talk that sony just wanted to do a cool looking dev kit?
 
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