This will never happen and people really should let go of this notion. Some stuff will always benefit more from having double the frame time.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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This will never happen and people really should let go of this notion. Some stuff will always benefit more from having double the frame time.
It is just a matter of priority. Devs will push visuals, effects, physics, etc.., and then concern themselves with locking performance down. They want the things that will look impressive to someone glancing at the game. 60fps won't make your average gamer want to buy the game.
Because the hardwarwe is done in a certain way for example, rasterizers aren't pixel size triangle friendly for example. This is the reason tesselation and displacement mapping cost so much out of offline rendering. This was the same on PS2 for example. This is how realtime rendering is done currently.
The day we use displacement map instead of normal maps, we could have as much polygon than the offline rendering trailer of Death Stranding but having silouhette tesselation without big performance cost would be cool.
All this paper and many others are very interesting and I hope the little modification of the current GPU will be done one day.
Not for us XBOX One X users. We've seen great looking games so next gen will have to raise the bar with frame rates, animations and lighting.
That's not the API's fault tho?
The hardware needs to add these features (and it is) before they can be exposed to developers.
Even more so on consoles where every hw feature can be exposed without caring about broad support or compatibility.
I don't understand the comment about displacement vs normal maps, and how using displacement maps would allow you to have as much polys as offline rendering.
Polys need to be processed to begin with, using displacement maps doesn't save anything.
Also geometry is hardly the limiting factor in modern games, vertex shading probably takes 10% of the GPU time or less.
Decoupled shading is about reducing shading cost, not vertex transform.
Technical boundaries pushed with respect to console hardware - not across every piece of hardware. You are talking about the incredible artistic style using baked lighting and fancy workarounds to the limited hardware.
This kind of defensive behavior always rears its ugly head when comparing console hardware to PC hardware. It's pretty old and tiring. The general message that I get from you is that the consoles, while having much less powerful hardware, will somehow dwarf any superior hardware because a 1st party company produced a game that's an exclusive. There has never once been a feature that's been done on a console that's impossible to implement on a PC, while the reverse is always the case.
You know that I know nothing about the RTX capailities because .... ?? RTX on a 2080Ti performs the best on any hardware to date and is powerful enough to implement ALL of it's functionality at a relatively good framerate (i.e. Metro, Control). We would be fools to think said tech would be on a $400/$500 console developed by a graphics company who doesn't even have a hardware implemention using RTX in PC form. That stresses the unbelievable blindness to the truth. Like last gen.
Ha, Xbox One X user here and i'm very certain next gen will look better than what we have now.
There will be very few things games will do on PCs, now or in the future, that won't be done on consoles. Anyone that truly believes PC gaming will have this gulf in quality is delusional - PC gaming always been (well, for the past 15 years) and always will be console gaming with sliders cranked to the max (at best).
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I speak about multiple things when I say DX/Vulkan I speak about the hardware we have currently this PC GPU. There is no big innovation coming from console anymore. But I hope we will see something like this on the polygon side.
AMD patent Parallel micropolygon rasterizers
And I hope we will have decoupled shading for better motion blur, Depth of field/defocus blur and better anti-aliasing. I think shading in realtime rendering is great, my dream is the day when we can't tell if a game trailer is realtime or low quality offline rendering I think in cutscene we are not so far but this is easy to see the weakness.
For sure. The multipliers just don't sound near as impressive as from base consoles. The X cleared the smudge off my 4K screen and I'm forever grateful.
I have to disagree with you on this. Probably for the first time ever.
If next gen was just PC Ultra then games should look like 2012 games on PC in ultra.
Therefore no game should look better than GTA V on ultra on PC. Yet there are tons of games that look better.
I'm sorry but this is not true.
For example look at open world pipeline from UE4 at the start of this gen.
Now look at it one year later. notice the vast improvement because instancing tech and a number of other tech like distance field ambient occlusion, specular occlusion, new shading models for two-sided, translucency and foliage, SSS were added to the engine. And I could go on and on. All this was added without the limitation of ps3/360 and all these new rendering features ran on consoles (PS4/XboxOne) Notice the jump in realism. Today you have scenes like the rebirth and others. But a-couple years ago you still got this.
comparing some of the new rendering features
Here's a open world game using UE4 that was made with UE4 at the start of thist gen.
Here's a open world game that was made years later with all the new rending features and pipeline without the shackles of ps3/360.
Notice the huge jump in visual fidelity. Its not just some difference in art.
Here's facial rendering at start of this gen with UE4.
Here's facial rendering you get today years later in UE4 and on console games like Gear 5, Days Gone, Senua, Man of Medan .
Same with jump in hair rendering.
Again night and day rendering pipeline completely changed. The rendering pipeline finally broke free from the ps3/xbox360 limitation.
With PBR, photogrammetry, instancing, advancement in lighting tech, fully volumetric lighting and fog systems, fully dynamic global ambient occlusion, dynamic ray traced shadows, specular occlusion, facial rendering, hair rendering, new shading models, SSS,etc. I could go on and on. None of this could run on PS3/360 and you couldn't get these graphics on 2012/2013 pc games. No amount of sliders will turn a ps3/360 game to looking look like a ps4/XO game. There are just too many new rendering features birth from the new power this gen consoles brought that didn't exist in games that were on PC.
Fully Dynamic Volumetric fog that you couldn't make appear in a ps3/360/pc game just by cranking the sliders.
TLDR: Nextgen isn't this gen with ULTRA settings just like it wasn't ps3/360 games with ultra settings.
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That hair looks real. Now if they could just animate it like it isn't suspended in a liquid.
Good post iamthatiam
I think it is pretty clear that it has never been a situation where next gen is just the previous gen with better settings. There has always been a sizable baseline bump and then settings applied from there. Heck, even going back to the start of the gen with a launch/launch year game like Infamous Second Son, that did not look remotely like a PS3 game with boosted settings.
I think it is pretty clear that it has never been a situation where next gen is just the previous gen with better settings. There has always been a sizable baseline bump and then settings applied from there. Heck, even going back to the start of the gen with a launch/launch year game like Infamous Second Son, that did not look remotely like a PS3 game with boosted settings.
I feel bad for anyone that hopes 60fps will be standard next-gen. It will just be like this gen, FPS games with a multiplayer component will be 60fps, fighting games and a majority of the racing games too. every thing else will be 30fps, or maybe 40fps with VRR.
The simple truth of the matter is that 60fps doesn't sell games.
I have to disagree with you on this. Probably for the first time ever.
If next gen was just PC Ultra then games should look like 2012 games on PC in ultra.
Therefore no game should look better than GTA V on ultra on PC. Yet there are tons of games that look better.
I'm sorry but this is not true.
For example look at open world pipeline from UE4 at the start of this gen.
Now look at it one year later. notice the vast improvement because instancing tech and a number of other tech like distance field ambient occlusion, specular occlusion, new shading models for two-sided, translucency and foliage, SSS were added to the engine. And I could go on and on. All this was added without the limitation of ps3/360 and all these new rendering features ran on consoles (PS4/XboxOne) Notice the jump in realism. Today you have scenes like the rebirth and others. But a-couple years ago you still got this.
comparing some of the new rendering features
Here's a open world game using UE4 that was made with UE4 at the start of thist gen.
Here's a open world game that was made years later with all the new rending features and pipeline without the shackles of ps3/360.
Here's facial rendering at start of this gen with UE4.
Here's facial rendering you get today years later in UE4 and on console games like Gear 5, Days Gone, Senua, Man of Medan .
Same with jump in hair rendering.
Again night and day rendering pipeline completely changed. The rendering pipeline finally broke free from the ps3/xbox360 limitation.
With PBR, photogrammetry, instancing, advancement in lighting tech, fully volumetric lighting and fog systems, fully dynamic global ambient occlusion, dynamic ray traced shadows, specular occlusion, facial rendering, hair rendering, new shading models, SSS,etc. I could go on and on. None of this could run on PS3/360 and you couldn't get these graphics on 2012/2013 pc games. No amount of sliders will turn a ps3/360 game to looking look like a ps4/XO game. There are just too many new rendering features birth from the new power this gen consoles brought that didn't exist in games that were on PC.
Fully Dynamic Volumetric fog that you couldn't make appear in a ps3/360/pc game just by cranking the sliders.
TLDR: Nextgen isn't this gen with ULTRA settings just like it wasn't ps3/360 games with ultra settings.
You can't compare PS3 era with PS4 era. We were just starting to get PBR (which was the milestone). What's the milestone going to be going PS4->PS5 if full featured RTX isn't going to be fast enough on consoles? I'm talking about the rendering capabilities. Nothing else. No pipeline improvements. Just rendering. What's the next visual step in rendering between what we have now and RTX?
Digital Foundary has gone over this time and time again with the RTX-based games. We've had people working at ND posting comments like "Ray-tracing.. that is all.". We've heard talks from big gaming companies that say, "the future is in RTX".
We are all looking for that next BIG thing. Not the small leaps. Baked rendering just isn't going to cut it anymore.
Also, just because a demo didn't have features and then a few years later, the demo now has those features doesn't mean the tech wasn't there. It was there, the hardware just wasn't there to run it. Those UE4 tech demos is R&D. They still haven't manifested itself in a game (which matters the most). I don't care about tech demos. I care about what's in the final game I'm playing.
Many people will argue, for example, that Shadow of the Tomb Raider doesn't look as good as UC4. Those games were years apart, but UC4 still has the better visual luster based on the artistic talent and attention to details. But they basically still have the same tech. Baked lighting, PBR, etc.. etc.. We must find that tech that will leap beyond what's standard today and has been standard for many many years.
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I am largely indiffirent towards the issue as I intend to play on PC, and whatever rig I'll get in early 2021 will likely have enough performance overhead to guarantee high framerate gaming. I do expect a higher percentage of games on consoles to be 60fps tho, I think the trade off will be worth it.
Just give it up. You won't convince anyone. Everyone who has seen next gen refutes your claims. And rtx is not everything there is and the end all be all. It's one of many ways of implementing raytracing and there will be hybrid solutions that will blow people away.
What are you trying to accomplish? Convince people that next gen will be underwhelming? What's your argument here?
Pixar didn't use ray tracing for lighting in Wall-E, Toy Story 3 and Up and these movies still look better than any RTX game on ultra.
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Personally, I feel anyone that says stuff like that is either being ignorant or at the very least has an agenda. And that's because its something that's so obvious to see its not even debatable so that anyone would somehow just refuse to see it is strange to me.
Next-gen is just previous gen with better settings? Lol... a cursory glance from the last-gen to this gen wouldn't just show a marked increase in every facet of the render pipeline, but clearly shows that this gen we have Open world games that look a generation better than even the best looking linear games from last gen. If that doesn't indicate a generational jump I don't know what would.
I am fully with you on the 60fps thing. I would take the option to play at 2160p.CB but at 60fps whenever possible in a heartbeat. I simply do not feel that the difference between 4K and 2160p.CB is worth giving up 30fps of extra framerates.
Unfortunately, the issue then becomes we will have devs that will push out games at 2160p.CB but also at 30fps. Because they can make it look so much prettier and ave more things going on on-screen.
I have accepted the fate that consoles will always be a mixed bag when it comes to framerates, and if you want higher frames then you should just game on a PC.
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What is this? Next gen will be a nice leap for everyone, and that includes those of us that game on much better hardware than 1X provides. That beast can't even handle decent SSR on Gears 5.
That's not what I meant. I was just saying the multipliers aren't that profound from the X. When you talk about GPU & RAM. In know the games will be much better. That much is obvious.
To be honest I think what is really tiring is you insisting on comparing consoles with PC. And you seem to keep focusing on RT as if thats the only thing worth making a next-gen console "next-gen". And that's just not true. Even worse, regardless of the fact that its been made clear that the next-gen consoles will have some form of hardware-based RT... you are somehow dismissing them regardless because they will not be as good as Nvidia's RTX?
But lets make this simple.
Lok at this... (again)
Would you consider that as net-gen if you started seeing games looking like that come 2020/2021? I really hope you would answer this question this time around. And remember, that demo is nt using RT at all.
One of the many ways of implementing raytracing? RTX is ray-tracing.
How is next-gen underwhelming? I gave a whole slew of things that we will see. They just are things we've already seen in PCs.
Huh?
You are right. I do give up. Take care.
Xbox One X is just current gen with better res, sometimes framerate like PC. This is not next-generation at all.
I know. Why is everyone misreading a simple point? I don't get it.
Ah, gotcha.
I'd be happy with this. I still dip into both and, though there are lobbies to be found on PC, you sometimes get stuck on a server with a crap map selection (hello, Metro 24/7) and can't really do much about it if you want a full lobby. Just get rid of the lens flare in BF3 and we're good, I don't need much else.
Don't think your performance metrics are doable though. BF4 is still somewhat demanding even on a 1080Ti, and that's obviously without any upgrades.
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I didn't. It was the conclusion of my comparison.
My comparison focused strictly on the launch PS4/XONE game engine we call UE4.
Yet the launch UE4 which already had PBR pales in comparison to UE4 just a year later because of all the new rendering capabilities that were added.
And we are not talking about one or two category, we are talking about EVERY category. Its like the gap between heaven and earth.
Why is that? other than the fact that PBR wasn't the only milestone. There were milestones in every single graphical category, its the sum of the parts.
Everything I listed above was rendering capabilities. I called them pipeline but they are all capabilities.
The future ISN'T ray tracing. The future is deep learning. Their focus is misplaced.
Nothing has changed in the world of ray tracing, it still produces noisy outputs. Its deep learning which was initially jump started in 2012 because of the advent of the GPU due to gaming.
Which has now lead to the creation of neural network chips due to demands by the self driving industry that does nothing but matrix multiplication, etc (tensor cores).
Deep learning has lead to revolution in alot of industries. Ray tracing was the obvious first thing to tackle but its trivial because all that is happening is a NN model acting as a denoiser, but it doesn't stop with ray tracing, its gonna affect every rendering category in gaming. So no the future isn't ray tracing, the future is deep learning.
Everything i posted above WERE big leaps even besides PBR. Again its the sum of the parts not a single holy grail.
But the tech WASN'T there, that's why it took years to develop. UE4.0 pales in comparison to 4.23 today.
Epic games have been very open about their road map, when they begin a development on a rendering feature, when it will be available for experimentation, when it will be production ready, etc.
Also every single thing i posted above is in A GAME.
which demo is R&D and haven't manifested itself in a game are you referring to?
Nothing I posted above haven't manifested itself in a game. I even listed games it manifested itself in...
Like i actually made sure i used real game examples.
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We can, the point is that it has an asymptotic relationship is for effort and reward. We can spend Silicon and development hours on brute forcing emulation or perhaps spend that same time and silicon for systemic solutions. One imo makes much more sense
Could Sparkman be something other than console? Do we have all the codenames for Xbox stuff?
I have no idea what Sparkman is.Ariel is supposed to be APU/GPU for PS5 and Arden for Next Xbox,if i remember well.
What do you think anexanhume ?
I don't think we are at point that we need asymptotic effort to increase visual quality without rt, not even close ;)
I think some saw the quake and minecraft ray tracing examples and extrapolated that amount of change to games like god of war. That's not really going to happen, at least not early in the gen. Expect more along the line of battlefield v with complex games.
If you look at where shaders were early last gen compared to now, ray tracing is basically at the start of last gen. As tools improve, tweaks and tricks are found ray tracing usage will be more generous but expectations should be tempered.
He's from mega man 3.
Isnt arden assumed to be xbox associated? That is related to shakespeare too.
Yea, that is the assumption from me right now.
Interesting that komachi mentions arden and ariel again, maybe they want to talk about the console parts again
Yeah, Komachi did swear off any console leaks a few months back. Remember that vividly
Sparkman sounds like a mid-range Zen 2 APU with 4 cores and 14 Navi CUs, not a next-gen console.
This sounds oddly specific for something we have no details about.
I suppose the question is, if a game is made with RT and a game is made without RT for next gen, which game would look better? Because undoubtedly the game without RT would have resources for more effects and other visual technologies.
It Will be interesting to see the different approaches to visuals next gen, which I'm sure you and the DF team will be doing excellent videos on.
Good point, performance hit can be massive with rt.
All you've seen was some settings cranked up, that's it. Imagin a 360-X, it's a 360 with double the GPU power that can run 360 games in 1080p. Is Gears 3 in 1080p anywhere near Gears 5? Not really, even if it's in glorious 1080p :)
Just because X is a pixel-pushing machine doesn't mean any X owner knows what next-gen looks like except for maybe IQ.
The next-gen consoles will eat any current-gen machine alive. The X's CPU is still Jaguar based... The leap will be exceptional; quite frankly both next-gen consoles will have games that shit on anything made on the X.
If GTA VI is exclusive to the next-gen consoles... Oh, boy...
My dudes. I explained this earlier but I was simply talking about GPU and RAM multipliers.
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