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How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 33 1.5%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 48 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 318 14.4%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 1,060 48.0%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 449 20.3%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 100 4.5%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 202 9.1%

  • Total voters
    2,210
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BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
You really think that MS is going to make the same mistake?

It bears repeating. Both systems will be more or less equal.

MS has a pretty long history of stepping on the same rake multiple times.

And Sony are what, throwing in a £10 PC World effort? The way people takes news and twist it to paint a narrative is unreal. So from the article both kits have cameras with them but because the Xbox one is better they're the only one that's going to bundle it, isn't that a leap on your part? It would surely make more sense for Sony to do it to push VR if there are actually cameras with the dev kits but nah, Kinect 3.0 incoming.

What are you even talking about? Both systems will support cameras. We know that. An insider says the Xbox camera is more advanced and considered a "huge priority". It's not unreasonable to believe MS are more likely to bundle a camera with Scarlett than Sony based on what the insider is saying. I'm sorry if that's confusing to you.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
And Sony are what, throwing in a £10 PC World effort? The way people takes news and twist it to paint a narrative is unreal. So from the article both kits have cameras with them but because the Xbox one is better they're the only one that's going to bundle it, isn't that a leap on your part? It would surely make more sense for Sony to do it to push VR if there are actually cameras with the dev kits but nah, Kinect 3.0 incoming.
Ps5 having some sort of camera as an optional purchase is given as psvr needs camera and we know psvr is supported on ps5 .so that's a non news part.the juicy news is Scarlett will have one and Ms will place a heavy emphasizes on it .which could mean it's not out of question that it will ship with it if we were to belive the rumor
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,781
MS has a pretty long history of stepping on the same rake multiple times.



What are you even talking about? Both systems will support cameras. We know that. An insider says the Xbox camera is more advanced and considered a "huge priority". It's not unreasonable to believe MS are more likely to bundle a camera with Scarlett than Sony based on what the insider is saying. I'm sorry if that's confusing to you.

So you will take this "insider" over the continuous MS messaging that they intend to build a powerful system...

I just think that some are trying to recreate a narrative that MS is creating a multimedia machine once more, and not a games console.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
So you will take this "insider" over the continuous MS messaging that they intend to build a powerful system...

I just think that some are trying to recreate a narrative that MS is creating a multimedia machine once more, and not a games console.
Its not important what few people think on forum . We shall with and see if MS is actually crazy enough to bundle in camera again.which I highly doubt
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
So you will take this "insider" over the continuous MS messaging that they intend to build a powerful system...

I just think that some are trying to recreate a narrative that MS is creating a multimedia machine once more, and not a games console.

Where did I say the system won't be powerful? Try taking a few breaths before you start putting words in other people's mouths.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
Its not important what few people think on forum . We shall with and see if MS is actually crazy enough to bundle in camera again.which I highly doubt
Having a camera isn't crazy. Having a gimped system at a higher price due to Kinect with scattered messaging was the issue. The Kinect wasn't the problem in itself but the cut corners to bundle it in and price were the issue. I don't care if they want to include a camera as long as they make an awesome system.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,781
Where did I say the system won't be powerful? Try taking a few breaths before you start putting words in other people's mouths.

If MS is creating a more or less equal console with a superior camera, then what's the problem?

I ask because a couple of posts back you were wondering why creating a games console was not enough for MS.

If I am mistaken, I sincerely apologize :)
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,781
Having a camera isn't crazy. Having a gimped system at a higher price due to Kinect with scattered messaging was the issue. The Kinect wasn't the problem in itself but the cut corners to bundle it in and price were the issue. I don't care if they want to include a camera as long as they make an awesome system.

Agreed.

And I think that MS understood how badly they fucked up. This is why the official messaging on Scarlett has not been about cameras, but power.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
And Sony are what, throwing in a £10 PC World effort? The way people takes news and twist it to paint a narrative is unreal. So from the article both kits have cameras with them but because the Xbox one is better they're the only one that's going to bundle it, isn't that a leap on your part? It would surely make more sense for Sony to do it to push VR if there are actually cameras with the dev kits but nah, Kinect 3.0 incoming.

Hear me out, I feel like the camera being just for vr makes it more likely to not be bundled. Why add cost to core system being purchased, or eat that cost? If literally the only reason anyone would need a camera is for vr....then bundle it with the vr. They're not going to make eyetoy exclusive games (not really anyway). It would literally be a useless lump unless you have vr
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
So you will take this "insider" over the continuous MS messaging that they intend to build a powerful system...

I just think that some are trying to recreate a narrative that MS is creating a multimedia machine once more, and not a games console.
Although I personally think the camera will be optional, even if packed in, no reason why it cant be powerful and have a camera
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,781
Although I personally think the camera will be optional, even if packed in, no reason why it cant be powerful and have a camera

That would be a great strategy. If they include a camera and the system is weaker, fans will posit that MS should have used resources to make a beefier machine.

An addon would eliminate that thought.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,892
ATL

great article about Power Vr Ray tracing tech by own Imagination technologies. They compare its solution to Nvidia's and mentions 7nm, consoles and Virtual Reality..
hints everywhere!


This would be a very intriguing development if their IP winds up in consoles. I wonder how AMD would fit in with integrating an external IP block like that into console APUs? AMD also has their own RT designs their working on as well.
 

alexhcranz

Reporter at Gizmodo
Verified
Feb 4, 2019
4
New York
Could you give us some details about those *methods* that are being used? Or what the comment say ?
Unfortunately, it's too vague. For example, I read the tipster's comment as suggesting the Sony device would do lots of real-time ray tracing from occlusion to shadows to full bounce reflections and the Microsoft device would rely on tricks to emulate ray tracing. But another colleague read the exact same comment and interpreted it as how ray tracing might appear in titles re-released for the new system. Game devs I passed it along too all had opinions that ranged the gamut from mine to my colleagues'. So until we get a little more detail I'm afraid it's all hearsay.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,134
Somewhere South
Unfortunately, it's too vague. For example, I read the tipster's comment as suggesting the Sony device would do lots of real-time ray tracing from occlusion to shadows to full bounce reflections and the Microsoft device would rely on tricks to emulate ray tracing. But another colleague read the exact same comment and interpreted it as how ray tracing might appear in titles re-released for the new system. Game devs I passed it along too all had opinions that ranged the gamut from mine to my colleagues'. So until we get a little more detail I'm afraid it's all hearsay.

Oh, you don't say stuff like this around here, not without providing some undeniable, incontrovertible first party statement and proof. That's how you start wars. :D

That said, that's interesting. That alludes to some real and meaningful difference to whatever feature implementation is in place.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,912
Maryland
Oh, you don't say stuff like this around here, not without providing some undeniable, incontrovertible first party statement and proof. That's how you start wars. :D

That said, that's interesting. That alludes to some real and meaningful difference to whatever feature implementation is in place.
What's funny is that it's the inverse of the running assumption in this thread so far.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
The camera stuff makes me super dubious about this, TBH.

And FWIW (maybe I've said this in the past) - although the dates and filings seem very legit, I think it's surprising that Sony would put this much effort and cost into a devkit this early. The silicon is probably close by now, but man that's a lot of tooling effort and cost for a devkit at this point in the generational switch. I'm not saying it's fake, but it sure is surprising.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,814
What news to wake up to, very interesting.
The claim about largest compute jump makes no sense but we can assume that its a good jump.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,814
There is actually an explanation for the compute jump now that i think about it, as NVidia did it too.
Include the ray tracing operations in the calculations "RTXOPS"
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
It's not worth getting worked up over the "biggest compute leap" comment since they don't say if they mean proportionally or in absolute terms.

If MS is creating a more or less equal console with a superior camera, then what's the problem?

I ask because a couple of posts back you were wondering why creating a games console was not enough for MS.

It's a problem if they pass they additional cost on to consumers who don't want or need the feature. It's a problem if they spend a disproportionate amount of their OS development resources on Influencer-pandering features while the vast majority of users get left behind. It's a problem in that it belies an attitude within the company that Xbox isn't good enough to stand on its own, it always is expected to prop up some other initiative where they think "the real money" is made. I've long felt Xbox would be way better off sold or spun off into its own business just to get away from that corporate synergy groupthink.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
So what's everyone's thought on that Daily article? Supposedly this is a quote from a dev.

"This is the least amount of clarity we've ever had on a new console this close to transition," the source said. "I believe that the [global restructuring] is exponentially exacerbating the already difficult process of transitioning to a new generation. And now we're getting nervous. Read: very nervous."

What is not clear when dev kits are out? Release date? And why would they be very nervous? Lol
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
What's funny is that it's the inverse of the running assumption in this thread so far.

If they took PowerVR implementation it would not being surprising. They have a few things Nvidia and DXR implementation is not doing like generating the BVH for each scene because of some fixed function (scene hierarchy generator) it means they can do LOD and no hack for animation and they have ray reordering for more coherent memory cache access(ray coherency engine). They were the first to do a GPU with raytracing buying caustic graphics.

Ray1-1024x393.png


r5-1024x628.png


And in 2016 Sony Interactive Entertainment hired Carl Vloet who was the lead in charge of the software raytracing stack at Caustic Graphics and later Power VR when Caustic was bought by Imagination.
 
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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
The camera stuff makes me super dubious about this, TBH.

And FWIW (maybe I've said this in the past) - although the dates and filings seem very legit, I think it's surprising that Sony would put this much effort and cost into a devkit this early. The silicon is probably close by now, but man that's a lot of tooling effort and cost for a devkit at this point in the generational switch. I'm not saying it's fake, but it sure is surprising.

For the PS5 devkit it was confirmed by a codemaster dev on twitter when he realized his error he nuked his twitter account.
 
Sep 28, 2019
174
Okay since the topic with those dev kits came up again, i allow myself to post something here what i posted on reddit a couple weeks ago:

9pvcvlglmoi31.jpg

So i made up a crude Sketch of that PS5 Dev Kit internals using one of those Patent Skeches . I think that, as you can see, that those both "Arms" of that "V" are actually 2 Heatsinks. I assume here that on the outside are 1-3 Fans wich suck cool Air through that heatsink. Both Heatsinks are connected with the APU by heatpipes . To me , it seems (if iam right)to be a smart solution. It completly sepaerates the PS5 into 2 Areas one side wich produce Heat and one side that gets rid of it. Also it is a very clear Language in terms of Airflow.Like : Cool from front and top. Warm to sides and back. Very clean, very no bullshit approach.That pink line i put into to indicate roughly the hight of a vanilla PS4. Wich suggests that all that funny upper part of the body are only there for the cooling solution. One could cool a PS4 with such a Method , basicly double its height.
Wich brings me right to the Final Release PS5. People look at that Patent Sketch an be like : ,,I never put such a thing under my TV"But what People do not understand is that this Dev kit Design can be transformed pretty easily into a release PS5.
Imagine the front with less USB Ports and no funny lights above the Disk insert. Then remove in your mind those scary looking vents on the sides and use more moderate looking ones. The next step is to cover those 2 openings of the "V" in front and on top with some kind of air pervious plastic grid. And there you go, the coming PS5 could actually stay with the same design Language as a PS4 Pro.So what you are thinking - me right or wrong :D
PS - i hope i made not too many grammar mistakes since iam a non native english speaker
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Would be nice to get a peek at the ray tracing quote, but sounds like exciting stuff.

On the subject of the camera, I really am not surprised. Not the first time Microsoft has been ahead of Sony when it comes to web camera tech. Not to mention if they're looking at the next gen console as a way to push their way into the live streaming industry. Mixer is already better than Twitch in everything except viewer and host count.
 
Re: biggest compute increase: technically tipster (especially malicious one/prankster) could be talking in absoulute, not relative size of the jump. And anyone can safely bet that the amount of TFLOPS added will be the biggest ever.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I wonder what type of ray tracing tech Xbox is using, if it's not PowerVR. Using 'tricks' seems believable for the DirectX team.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
I just have to say that Scarlett won't be multiple consoles. Just the speculation about it was confusing. I can't imagine what it would have been like for consumers. Good choice on Microsoft's part.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,807
Australia
Re: biggest compute increase: technically tipster (especially malicious one/prankster) could be talking in absoulute, not relative size of the jump. And anyone can safely bet that the amount of TFLOPS added will be the biggest ever.

Technically, but that feels so blatantly obvious that you wouldn't even bother saying it unless you are actively trying to be deceptive.
 

Katzenbuckel

Member
Aug 18, 2019
54
Would it be possible for MS to say they have ray-tracing hardware in the promo video but still use software DRX ray-tracing. So some sort of hardware accelerator like for video decompression? Or would this hardware be to similar to the "normal" ray-tracing Hardware?

I can not believe that MS would bundle a camera! But maybe there are a Scarlett / Scarlett Pro (with the Pro Controller and more storage)/ Scarlett Streamer Edition (a Pro with a bundled Camera and Mic)?

We get tips at Gizmodo sometimes too!
It was late when I wrote my post and English is obviously not my main language. I did not want to discredit Gizmodo! It was just a thought I had, don't know why I wrote it. I really liked the article even though I am not shure if I believe the tipster.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I wonder what type of ray tracing tech Xbox is using, if it's not PowerVR. Using 'tricks' seems believable for the DirectX team.

Same thing this part is suspicious, there is no trick maybe the guy wanted only to say one can do more raytraced effect than the other.

Would it be possible for MS to say they have ray-tracing hardware in the promo video but still use software DRX ray-tracing. So some sort of hardware accelerator like for video decompression? Or would this hardware be to similar to the "normal" ray-tracing Hardware?

I can not believe that MS would bundle a camera! But maybe there are a Scarlett / Scarlett Pro (with the Pro Controller and more storage)/ Scarlett Streamer Edition (a Pro with a bundled Camera and Mic)?


It was late when I wrote my post and English is obviously not my main language. I did not want to discredit Gizmodo! It was just a thought I had, don't know why I wrote it. I really liked the article even though I am not shure if I believe the tipster.

They can have raytracing hardware but less performant than the other solution.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Yeah, I was thinking that tricks mean techniques that would also be applicable for non-turing GPUs.

The Power VR solution has some functionality not inside any DXR GPU even Turing solution.

I will search it when I have time but at SIGGRAPH 2019 Nvidia release a paper where they talk about the next step and updating the BVH more often and they talk about Power VR solution but said it is not open (some patent). On Power VR whitepaper they say it is possible to update the BVH each frame.

Edit: The Nvidia paper about BVH reconstruction

 
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