Honestly think that 120fps will remain a pipe dream this generation unless we're talking small scale indie titles or games from previous generations i.e. Overwatch and other 60fps titles.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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120fps will be useless when only a fraction of TVs will support it
I would love it if Halo Infinity launched with a 120fps option for MP (with the same sort of trade offs we see with the X enhanced options on current gen). I think that's a genuine possibility, confined to MP.
I don't believe - nor expect there to be 'defining' next-gen features. SSDs and stronger processing power will facilate some games to do things that they couldn't in the past, but smart and interesting game design imo - are achieved in spite of all the technical limitations, not because they're held back by it.
And that's fine to be honest. We started off this generation with a bunch of marlakey like "where's games that have next-gen gameplay", and eventually we stopped seeing nonsense like that as more people realise game design and gameplay isn't some voodoo magic.
All that matters are that the games are good and made both ethically with responsible finances.
And that's fine to be honest. We started off this generation with a bunch of marlakey like "where's games that have next-gen gameplay", and eventually we stopped seeing nonsense like that as more people realise game design and gameplay isn't some voodoo magic.
All that matters are that the games are good and made both ethically with responsible finances.
I believe that some of the Xbox folks around E3 used words to almost confirm that this will be the case. I mean you don't at least mention 120 fps options for your new Scarlett console without having your flagship game support them, right :)
120 fps ? New consoles will have vega 64/gtx1080 level of perf so 30fps in 4k and 60 in 1440p are realistic levels
It's a fairly big article:
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No flagship title, be it on XB or PS5 will offer a 120fps mode. 1000% guaranteed. But once again, i appreciate your..."enthusiasm".
I already said it in a post above but you are 100% right, almost all TVs wont support 120hz, so no point. Heck most TVs wont support VRR that i know a lot of posters here want to be supported in games
While I think refinement will definitely be a big piece of next gen games, I do think the console tools being ramped up to this extent will allow them to explore their smart and creative ideas far better. That sort of thinking is held back by technical limitations. You can argue the extent but it is definitely there.
Don't compare PC to console, even with Vulcan and DX12 PC cards can never get the same amount of performance that a console can with the same or similarly spec'd pc hardware. Low-level access APIs don't compare to programming to a single spec device.
I don't really understand why people are trying to make "one size fits all" claims about next-gen resolution and fps. Just like every gen before it, some games will be native 4K, some will be 4Kcb and some will probably even be sub-1440p (1800Pcb for instance, just like BFV); some will be 60, some will be 30. That's just how it goes, every developer chooses whatever fits their game. Developers will have ~X4 CPU, ~X7 GPU power, an SSD and a big pool of fast RAM and they will build their game in the way that fits their philosophy.
Claims regarding 8K and 120fps are just a way of saying "we have HDMI 2.1". The consoles are technically able to provide this kind of output, it doesn't mean that any developer will actually do it. Games will have a hard time hitting 4K, 8K is four times more pixels. Asking for 8K from the PS5 and Scarlett is like asking for 4K from the Switch. I doubt even PS4 remasters will be able to hit 8K native considering you need 29~ GCN TF in order to do that.
Claims regarding 8K and 120fps are just a way of saying "we have HDMI 2.1". The consoles are technically able to provide this kind of output, it doesn't mean that any developer will actually do it. Games will have a hard time hitting 4K, 8K is four times more pixels. Asking for 8K from the PS5 and Scarlett is like asking for 4K from the Switch. I doubt even PS4 remasters will be able to hit 8K native considering you need 29~ GCN TF in order to do that.
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You made that point by saying that 4x the processing power gives you access to 4x the simulation, which isn't the case. And it's also worth pointing out that doubling the framerate doesn't mean a straight halving of what you can do with the CPU per frame either.
Devs will choose what is best for their projects based on the resources they have. DrKeo nails it!
Last time someone thought that "raw performance isn't the game-changer this time" they came up with Kinect 2.0. Just sayin'.
That said, I guess services like PSNow or GamePass will play a much bigger role for the next generation.
Nah, true that often games are better optimized for consoles but there is no "magic" in console perf.
I know increased fidelity will add more burden with next gen games, but the X is already exceeding those with good IQ this gen in more than just isolated examples.
Who's talking about COD? I was obviously talking about the games mentioned in one of the earlier posts like RDR2.
Raytracing is probably going to be like in the current or future RTX games where just 1 or 2 effects are partially raytraced but even then it's still going to a massive performance hog from what I've seen.
This has been true for CPU optimization but never really true for GPU optimization. A PC with a similar GPU as the PS4, Pro or even the X1X can do exactly what these consoles do. A 580 for example is on par with the X1X in what it can do. In that sense low-level APIs don't really do much on the GPU front, even on PC it's only about CPU optimization.
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I don't think a Tetris port running at 8k and/or 120 fps is unfathomable for next gen.
the 120fps is just a HDMI bullet point they're regurgitating like the 8k. Won't ever be used beyond a handful of games (and for 8k just stuff like media apps)
Often checkerboard 1800p or mixed settings (some graphic setup in Division 2 are lower than pc low) and keep in mind that nextgen games will look better and be more demanding.
Would any devs even bother with low level APIs .
The only people you would see doing that is first party devs and that more on the Sony side since we hear about it a few times.
Not certain if they even do much of that this gen .
Look at what RT does to such an old game, I'm very impressed. RT makes a damn big difference. I really hope RT will be like this for the new systems.
Next-Gen games with RayTracing gonna look in-fucking-sane :0
Pretty sure something like Bleeding Edge will aim for 120fps on Scarlett
If you consider that flagship titel or not is a different question.
How do you even play Overwatch at 60fps on console?
Just like the 1X BC enhancements, I am interesting in seeing what older titles get the RT treatment. I get the feeling MS will handle it really well, just like their previous BC stuff.
For who, the minuscule amount of people that play their consoles on a screen that supports 120Hz?
I don't think this is a bulletpoint worth chasing in the slightest.
I bet a bunch of folks have started to hear stuff, especially given this latest tweet from Reiner.
Can only hope that someone, like Kotaku, come out with an article soon.
I think that HDMI's VRR will force most devs to provide two modes of operation in their next gen console releases:
A. A "legacy mode" where a game is running locked at 30 or 60 for TVs without VRR capability.
B. A "modern mode" where the same game is running somewhat unlocked (likely still software limited inside some fps range though) between 30 and 60 or 60 and 90-120.
Per pixel lighting is definitely not off the cards as any lighting with RT is per pixel. What Contol does is correct its voxel based GI with the help of per pixel visibility data it gets from shooting rays.
And btw this is something which Nvidia presented at GDC'19 as an RT-based optimization of a typical modern voxelized GI solution so I fully expect it to find its way into more games than Control.
That's neither what I said nor what I meant. You're reading something else into a frankly offhand illustrative comment.
For completeness, my precise wording was:
"...4x the simulation complexity" which was intended to be an intentionally vague and arbitrary description of the boost in game complexity that a 4x CPU perf jump brings. There's no need to start trying to ascribe specific definitions (e.g. 4x the number of trees) to an intentionally non-specific and very general statement.
Perhaps I should have worded it as "4x the CPU performance worth of increased game complexity"? I guess I just figured it would have been obvious.
Despends on the game.
You can also play 120fps on a 60hz screen.
I play 300fps on a 75hz screen on PC.
This will likely be an unpopular opinion, but the more I see of Ray Tracing, the less important it seems to me. They payoff for the amount of power it needs doesn't seem worth it.
Does it look better, of course. But Control having more realistic floor reflections doesn't exactly seem like a game changer to me.
Does it look better, of course. But Control having more realistic floor reflections doesn't exactly seem like a game changer to me.
The benefits for that are minimal outside of competitive PC gaming, and even more so on consoles.
Me. As a question to highlight what can be achieved at 60FPS when a game is built for it at the start. It's a greater indication of what can be done with hardware and what trade offs may need to be made than taking a 30fps game and assuming you have to cut out half of what's being done each frame..
The problem is that it isn't vague or arbitrary when '4x the simulation' complexity is mentioned in reference to the 4x CPU perf jump and as an opposing argument against 60fps titles. And worse, you don't even mention the possibility of increased simulation complexity with your 60fps option.
I'd be curious to see how far they could push the frame rate and resolution in a new Wipeout :)
This.
I think a lot of the hype around it is founded more in the novelty of the underlying technology and it now being possible in realtime rendering than the actual real-life results.
The only RT demo that suitably impressed me so far was the Star Wars one, and that won't even be possible in-game on the next-next-gen of high end PC hardware, much less game consoles.
If it's not vague then what does "4x simulation complexity" specifically imply to you?
Frankly speaking, I think you're being unnecessarily pedantic and reading too much into it.
"Complexity" itself is an intentionally imprecise and undefined term. So even adding a "4x" qualifier it doesn't change the meaning -- hence why I assumed any reasonable poster reading that would simply interpret it (as intended) to describe "the increased complexity afforded by 4x the CPU".
And the fact that I didn't mention the possibility of increased complexity with 60fps doesn't imply anything. Again you're being needlessly pedantic. I already acknowledged it in an earlier post.
At this point I think it best to just move on from this point of contention, StraightToHell. Perhaps you misinterpreted my comment. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with how I rendered it originally. At the end of the day, its tangential and immaterial to the wider discussion in the thread, as well as the wider discussion I was having with the other poster about 60fps on next-gen consoles.
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Personally I think it's super early days for RT Support and the floor reflection stuff is basic and RT can be. Metro Exodus used RT in a different way and I think as developers get hold of it via Scarlett and PS5, more interesting uses of the hardware will appear.
Control also does more than shiny floors as well. Realistic light and shadows is a huge part of it. I am waiting for the first big horror game to use it accurately as well.
I suppose it is one of those things that I am going to have to see implemented, by people far smarter than me, in a way that actually matters gameplay wise. I imagine once I see it used in a meaningful game mechanic my tune can change. I definitely appreciate the technical aspects of it though.
Truth is devs are most likely talking .
They do have dev kits , target specs , documentation etc etc
It's to bad we not getting to see anything compare to how it was for XB1 and PS4 before they came out .
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Is not just about low input latency - I and plenty of other people think 60fps simply looks a lot better, especially during fast motion, even if you're not playing the game. We already have arbitrary framerate standards, yours are just different than mine. We don't see devs making their games run at 15-20fps for extra simulation (at least in the vast majority of cases), not even with the cruddy CPUs they're currently stuck with - in fact, we've seen a lot of major franchises go from 30 to 60 when they didn't necessarily need to. And honestly I think it's best to let the player decide where to aportion that perf budget - I would be fine to just have 60fps as a performance mode, but I know they'd still have to design it around 60fps, which sucks.
I just want 60fps to become a console standard in the same way that 30 became one after the fourth and fifth generations where there were a lot of 10-20fps 3D games, and I feel that the mix of amazing current visuals and the massive jump in CPU power that we're going to get makes this the perfect time for it. I know it's almost certainly not going to happen though.
Also, something I just thought of - going from 30 to 60 often doesn't actually mean doubling the framerate. Many times what you're actually doing is taking a 30fps lock that's really more like 30-40fps, and upping that to hit a target of about 50-60fps, which is all that will really be needed when you have a VRR display. So the cost of a 60fps target is actually being a little overblown.
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Actually devs do have documentation on both systems if they have both devkits. Everything you'd need to know is in them with the obvious *subject to change remark.
So chatter is one thing, but having both documents leaks would be gravy.
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