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What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%
  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%
  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%
  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%

  • Total voters
    1,379
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Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
If you imagine a 2 SKU strategy addressing a certain market segment, for a single SKU to address a similar market segment, you'd have to price it somewhere down the middle. And unless they're alright with taking way more loss per console than originally planned, it's gonna mean paring back the specs a little.
Or if Anaconda was actually premium-spec'ed and premium-priced. If you have two SKUs, you can do $299 and $599. If the $599 is your only SKU, then you have a problem, especially if your competitor will have a machine not significantly weaker at, say $399.
Neutered is far too strong a word. It's been scaled back
As I've already said, I think expectations that Anaconda would become less powerful fundamentally misconstrue the situation. What matters to Microsoft meeting their goals is the total actual cost of the console, and the perceived selling points. Retail price isn't pinned directly to either of those things.

The intended Lockhart consumer was people who care most about price. The intended Anaconda consumer was people who care most about performance. So which scenario makes more sense?

Lockhart: costs $325 to build, sold for $350
Anaconda: costs $600 to build, sold for $500

If you sell in a 70/30 ratio (which is what they projected), you lose ~$12m per million units (mild loss is typical for new platforms, as games/accessories/services make it up).

Lockhart: costs $360 to build, sold for $300
Anaconda: costs $500 to build, sold for $600

A 70/30 ratio here costs you about the same amount. But there's many advantages. First, the build cost gap is only 40% instead of 85%--these two devices can more easily run the same games and services. Second, the majority of the audience are Lockhart buyers. They're getting an absolutely lower price for slightly better hardware, and the perceived savings from the premium choice is doubled. Yes, your enthusiasts get less, but will they even perceive it? It's likely a 17% lowering of cost is not going to require a full 17% dip in performance. You can engage your world-class marketing team to effectively build hype for the USPs the premium experience provides. And even with this "weaker" Anaconda, you're still talking about a build price likely higher than any PS5, with its one-size-fits-all needs. You pay more but you get more, and that's something Microsoft carried through with One X.

But there's an even bigger advantage latent here. And that's in answering the question, "What if the split isn't 70/30?" In the first scenario, Anaconda may be such a good deal that the percentage rises to 35, 40, 45.... And every step, you're losing more and more money on hardware. This makes sales, bundles, and future price cuts harder to do. With the second scenario, you lose less money if your premium console is unexpectedly popular. You could pocket that cash, use it defray the cost of an incentivizing price cut on Lockhart, or even bolster Anaconda with sales or bundles. And what if the ratio goes the other way, say to 80/20? You do lose more money, as with a rising ratio in scenario one. But the way out is to promote sales of your best product, with bundles or specials that don't impact margins too deeply. In addition, it's generally harder for this small amount of "premium interest" to approach the floor than for it to grow (i.e. Xbox has built a dedicated hardcore audience).

I think that's a pretty thorough case that the second cost-vs-price scenario is more likely to be how Microsoft were planning (even if the exact figures aren't correct). Which means if Lockhart is removed, you don't really have to downgrade Anaconda. With only one SKU, it could still cost $500 to build, but you sell it for $500. At worst, you'll be up against a PS5 that also costs and sells at $500...just fight them on services. More likely, you're against a PS4 that costs $450 to build and sells for $400, or even costs $400 to build and sells for $400. Either way, your machine is more expensive but it's also more powerful, maybe significantly so.

Anaconda will certainly need to be scaled back to make yields more cost effective. Now that there is no Lockhart to absorb binned chips.
This will probably have no effect. First, even in a premium position Anaconda is unlikely to have ever been planned for zero disabled silicon. With such large chips, the portion that come off the wafer without any faults is very small, no matter whether you're planning a lower binned tier to absorb costs. The Hovis Method would help, but it'd be most cost-effective simply to plan for disabling from the get go, as with One X.

Second, there wasn't a lower tier to utilize defective chips. Lockhart was rumored to have a GPU half as powerful as Anaconda, or maybe even as low as a third as powerful. Binning chips between such disparate products defeats the purpose. The Lockhart APU would end up being massively oversized for its active silicon, and thus a waste of money.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Imagine being so full of shit with a crappy track record (especially if you consider all the off-site shit they spew) and then calling out someone as a pretender who rarely gets anything wrong if at all. Imagine that.

It's pretty amusing.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
So we had "insiders" pushing Lockhart as a thing when it hasn't been a thing for many months?

Nice.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,860
I have a really strong feeling that a lot of information was allowed to be circulated since it would help weed out sources.

The ones that still believed that the two SKU strategy was still a thing leading up to E3 must have had similar sources. Whereas we know some people knew it was no longer in the plans for a while now.
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
No wonder people don't like to leak anything, because even if you had a lot of things you leaked come true, one mistake is all it takes for people to shit all over you. Klobrille didn't even get it wrong. It was just old and even matt and zhaug confirmed it did exist at one point.
 

Hawk269

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,043
I have not read every page as this thread is flying, but have there been any "actual" specs released/confirmed?
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
Actually, due to the point above I just watched the Scarlett video from the official Xbox channel on Youtube. The "It eats monsters for breakfast" line at the end is edited out. (Also, Phil Spencer quotes are added at a couple points.)

Do not read anything into this. I just thought it was a funny coincidence with your question.
it was such a bad line and clumsy attempt to benefit from the memeing of their previous horrible line... I loved it! this is a true loss and tragedy: i demand consoles that are defined by their level and capacity of hunger for unspeakable beasts
 

joe_zazen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,490
Matt, or anyone with insider information for that matter, is not obligated to share it with us. And if they do, if even one thing is slightly different from what they told us, they too often get a ton of shit for it. Look at what that Game Informer editor went through recently. Merely telling what he was told from developers first hand about the PS5 got him a heap of harassment online from salty console warriors. Who would want that headache?

Lol, yeah. For e.g.: Ahmad doesnt even work at sony any more, and when he did he dealt 100% with indies (lots of 1080 60fps there btw), and people trot out some 6 year old tweet to make him look like a manipulative liar...you gotta be nuts or have real low self esteem to subject yourself to internet junk for no reason other than getting that leaker's high.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
He doesn't like any sort of negative Xbox news and blames the messenger. He's still posting on Twitter about Matt and Thuway. Rants at this point.

Bish was also responsible for mainly running ntkrnl, which towards the end started spouting a bunch of negative xbox stuff that didn't even prove true, iirc. Someone else will probably remember better than me.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
No wonder people don't like to leak anything, because even if you had a lot of things you leaked come true, one mistake is all it takes for people to shit all over you. Klobrille didn't even get it wrong. It was just old and even matt and zhaug confirmed it did exist at one point.
Sure, but look at what that old info bought.

You know that narrative that Anaconda is more powerful than the PS5? That was due to Kobrille stating it due to the old 2 SKU info he had. The one that made people pissed if anyone even as much as speculate that the PS5 could be more powerful.

I'm happy to be proven wrong that those aren't controlled leaks though. Just that the MS Insiders know less than people thought they do.

Would be wise if everyone takes what they say with a grain of salt from now on.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,514
Chicagoland
I think it did accomplish something. Both Matt and ZhugeEx's additional confirmation on top of what Brad Sams reported helped to solidify this piece of news. If it were just Brad Sams I'm sure we'd be getting a bunch of people who would say, "maybe his sources don't know" or something like that. Getting independent verification from two other respected sources is very useful and they helped us to understand it wasn't a very recent decision.

So now have info that Microsoft changed gears on their plans for Lockhart sometime either last year or early this year, and based on previous info we also know Sony changed their plans from a 2019 to a 2020 release date. I think whoever is angry that the insiders didn't share this info sooner need to get a grip and relax a bit.

Plus, we have Richard Leadbetter saying he believes Lockhart is gone.



Prior to that in DF's E3 preview video he expressed his concerns (and developer suspicions/concerns) on Lockhart, that a 4TF console with specs on paper being lower than X1X would be a tough sell for Microsoft.



All in all, it sounds like its

RIP the low-end Xbox Scarlett console aka LOCKHART. You will never be missed.
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
Lol, yeah. For e.g.: Ahmad doesnt even work at sony any more, and when he did he dealt 100% with indies (lots of 1080 60fps there btw), and people trot out some 6 year old tweet to make him look like a manipulative liar...you gotta be nuts or have real low self esteem to subject yourself to internet junk for no reason other than getting that leaker's high.

Hey, hi, I'm right here. Jaypah. I posted his tweet to make the point that I don't hold obvious marketing speak as gospel. Also don't be shy, you can always tag me and I'll pop up when time permits.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
If Microsoft and Sony come through with comparable boxes at 399 - it's going be one hell of a ride.

Microsoft may even have the edge because Halo Infinite is coming out at launch.


Similar price points probably means similar specs so the games will really have to do the talking
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Plus, we have Richard Leadbetter saying he believes Lockhart is gone.



Prior to that in DF's E3 preview video he expressed his concerns (and developer suspicions/concerns) on Lockhart, that a 4TF console with specs on paper being lower than X1X would be a tough sell for Microsoft.



All in all, it sounds like its

RIP the low-end Xbox Scarlett console aka LOCKHART. You will never be missed.

i remember being told not to worry about its very easy to downscale games from 12 tflops down to 4.

If only those devs had an era account, this thread would've taught them how to downscale games.
 
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El-Pistolero

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
1,308
Honestly, who here even liked the idea of the Lockhart? A weaker next gen console for the casual audience that would've hindered next gen development.

Good riddance i say!

A lot of people actually. The idea was that Sony would get stuck between the much cheaper and enticing entry console, and the more expensive and significantly more powerful high end version. I am surprised that you had to ask the question?
 

joe_zazen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,490
Hey, hi, I'm right here. Jaypah. I posted his tweet to make the point that I don't hold obvious marketing speak as gospel. Also don't be shy, you can always tag me and I'll pop up when time permits.

It was the post from Detective i was responding to.

But yeah, there are lots of 1080 60 indies on ps4, and that was his job, helping, guiding, and marketing indies on sony's platforms. Like there are lots of shitty lying pr dirtbags, but Ahmad isnt one of them.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
There was a DICE dev that surprisingly said supporting two SKUs wouldn't be a big deal

Must have been a minority opinion
Every studio and engine is different. For example dice is on record saying they do not like checkerboard rendering.

Best practices differ between studio and engines but one thing is for sure a stronger baseline Xbox is better for every gamer out here.
 

Deleted member 57239

User requested account closure
Banned
May 31, 2019
70
User Banned (A Week): Continuing community attacks; doubling down on previous ban. Junior phase member.
Sooo... what are the most realistic specs for ps5 & x2 huh guys?

have you not been reading this thread since OT1? its been garbage

a place full of passive aggressive dorks
how can i talk to the mod who banned me? seems like i was right.

seriously tho is there a way to do that?
 
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Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
Sure, but look at what that old info bought.

You know that narrative that Anaconda is more powerful than the PS5? That was due to Kobrille stating it due to the old 2 SKU info he had. The one that made people pissed if anyone even as much as speculate that the PS5 could be more powerful.

I'm happy to be proven wrong that those aren't controlled leaks though. Just that the MS Insiders know less than people thought they do.

Would be wise if everyone takes what they say with a grain of salt from now on.
He can only leak what he has. What people do with that info isn't his job. If the leaks were controlled what's the point of bringing up the 2 SKU strategy when it was already gone by the time it was leaked?
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
Every studio and engine is different. For example dice is on record saying they do not like checkerboard rendering.

Best practices differ between studio and engines but one thing is for sure a stronger baseline Xbox is better for every gamer out here.

Absolutely, I'm really happy Lockhart was dropped

We will get very similar consoles, probably closer in power than last gen.

Good for gamers and developers
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
It was the post from Detective i was responding to.

But yeah, there are lots of 1080 60 indies on ps4, and that was his job, helping, guiding, and marketing indies on sony's platforms. Like there are lots of shitty lying pr dirtbags, but Ahmad isnt one of them.

Never said he was. But when that was the talk of the Town it didn't have any effect on my enjoyment of PS4 games that didn't hit that mark, Indies included. The chain of conversation was I-Lo (I believe that's the spelling) calling for people to hold Phil's feet to the fire if all 1st party games weren't 4k/60fps. Phil never promised that. Ahmad never promised that all PS4 games were going to be 1080p/60. Yet people felt the need to be "concerned" then so I thought the parallel was apt. My stance is that as an informed consumer I know the difference between possible and expected so none of the PR affects me. Also since I was the one who posted his tweet verbatim I didn't mind being called to the front of the class, just letting it be known that I get up faster if I actually hear my name.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
8,576
He can only leak what he has. What people do with that info isn't his job. If the leaks were controlled what's the point of bringing up the 2 SKU strategy when it was already gone by the time it was leaked?
Think you misread my post. I said I was wrong to think those were controlled leaks.

The main point is that their info could be outdated, so better to take what Kobrille says, as well as hmqgg with a grain of salt. They dont know as much as we thought they do.
 
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modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,831
well then, quite a heated discussion i missed. lockhart being cancelled since 2018 is very interesting, MS might have been able to change things in the sillicon in this case (we know the silicon is locked now, i am pretty sure phil said that in an interview), so i wonder how much did they actually change the specs.

i remember being told not to worry about its very easy to downscale games from 12 tflops down to 4.

If only those devs had an era account, this thread would've taught them how to downscale games.
this is another problem, with the switch, era convinced itself that you can downport any game to any device, and they dont realize the ton of hard work that goes into those ports, down porting is in orders of magnitude more difficult than porting to a stronger system, so its obvious developers will work on the weaker system first.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,139
Sooo... what are the most realistic specs for ps5 & x2 huh guys?


how can i talk to the mod who banned me? seems like i was right.

seriously tho is there a way to do that?

Check the Colbert next gen predictions in Threadmarks.

No idea about the mods thing sorry. I suggest forget about it and move on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
I don't share the vast majority of things I could, and what I do share I think carefully about, and is influenced by any number of factors, including how I know the information, how old it is, what impact sharing it may have, if i was asked a specific question, if I am just confirming or expanding on something (rather than announcing it), and so on.

I don't just hear things and rush online to tell everyone. I make choices, I have to.

Fair enough. You're usually always even handed and I respect that. Hope everyone calms down today. It's just next gen speculation folks.
 

Psyrgery

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,744
So, there is a possibility that the cancellation of Lockhard might lead to a downgraded Anaconda, right?

If that happens to be true then...

e1c27f3a9bb822fe7d30f46ee24d04641566587bd1a2a07f8ff847ff3928f150_1.jpg
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
Also why are folks jumping all over Klobrille today? Feels like some have been holding back and kicking the dude now that one of his leaks didn't pan out. I never felt Klob was obnoxious about it, he just wanted to share what he had and he had that vetted.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
well then, quite a heated discussion i missed. lockhart being cancelled since 2018 is very interesting, MS might have been able to change things in the sillicon in this case (we know the silicon is locked now, i am pretty sure phil said that in an interview), so i wonder how much did they actually change the specs.

With Lockhart gone I don't understand why this would effect Anaconda unless they decided to change price points.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Also why are folks jumping all over Klobrille today? Feels like some have been holding back and kicking the dude now that one of his leaks didn't pan out. I never felt Klob was obnoxious about it, he just wanted to share what he had and he had that vetted.
I'm not tbh.

It's weird to me that he has information on a lot of recent stuff (he did hint on the Lego DLC for FH4) but didn't vet his own information on Lockhart, which is a fairly big thing.

Like I said, take what he says with a grain of salt. There were some here who took his word as gospel before.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,124
With Lockhart gone I don't understand why this would effect Anaconda unless they decided to change price points.

Pretty much...but if they were targetting say 600, I can't see how they wouldn't change things. I mean again, they dropped the 'most powerful system ever' rhetoric at E3 to 'mos powerful we have designed'. Either it was never targetting a high price point, so was never going to be significantly different to whatever the PS5 is, or they have dropped the speces and are less confident that they are more powerful. Either way, they aren't certain they are more powerful, otherwise they would have said as such as they have before.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
With Lockhart gone I don't understand why this would effect Anaconda unless they decided to change price points.
Remember when BDSams said that they are targetting Anaconda to be more powerful with the PS5? That's not the case anymore. Previously I can see Anaconda being a 599 machine if PS5 is better than they assumed.

Now I can only see both coming at the same pricepoint and similar in terms of power.
 
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