• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%
  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%
  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%
  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%

  • Total voters
    1,379
Status
Not open for further replies.

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,513
I don't remember the PS4/Xbox one speculation thread being this bad. Some of the posters here have unrealistic expectations, but the worst thing is the aggressive tones and trolling. We would be lucky to get an 5700 level of performance. It's just not going to exceed the Navi 10 GPU. It's too much money to make a GPU that will bridge the gap between Navi 10 and Navi 20. I also doubt Sony will release a console more then $399. Imo I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that it will be around 9tf. The big question mark is the ray tracing hardware. It's was too vague in how MS mentioned it. And Sony completely omitted it so far. My expectations is that they are referring to ray tracing using compute units. Just like what was achieved with Vega 56 using cry engine. Not the same type of specialized hardware like Nvidia uses for their rtx gpus.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Notwithstanding the aggressive wording in your question, I would answer this way:

Cerny, more than anyone who is posting in this thread or anyone who speaks publicly about consoles in the industry, knows well the difference between hardware accelerated ray-tracing, and software ray-tracing. As the architect of the system, he would know himself precisely the amount of area and type of hardware accelerated Ray Tracing they support. So I found the *absence* of clarity on this point, particularly coming from him directly, to be extremely telling. Or to put it bluntly: Cerny chose not to be clear on this point and he would know the answer first hand.

Unlike, say, a "junior" (your term) on a marketing team who may not really understand those technical differences and thinks that "ray tracing" is just a buzzword so unintentionally puts it in a headline without the intent to be misleading.

Seems to me that, like 4K before it, both companies will claim they have "Ray Tracing" whether it's supported in silicon or not.

For better or worse, the Scarlett video was clear on this point. Cerny was not. Therefore, if we're being honest we do not know if Sony's implementation is HW accelerated or not.

Lastly, the very next sentence I say that I personally think it's likely they have it.
Completely agree with all of this, except the bit about Cerny not being specific about RT. The wired interview doesn't contain the entire transcript. We don't actually know what was said, just what was reported. RT wasn't expected by many before the reveal (advert), and the interviewer may not have asked the right questions.
 

DMVfan123

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,361
Virginia
Guys what's ur status in 2020?

2020.seems like a weird stacked year with most of games getting patched for next gen to use the additional power ?

What to do ? Wait and play them at the end of year on next gen consoles or just play them on inferior machines ?

Fuck like what do I do with:
last of us part 2 ?
Or final fantasy remake 7?
or cyberpunk ??
PS4 or ps5? I m geniunely confused and it's such a fucking stacked year lol
I'm buying TLOU2, DS, FF7R, Dying Light 2, Avengers, and maybe Tsushima and Watch Dogs Legion on this gen
Everything else including Cyberpunk, which is my most anticipated game at present, will be played on PS5 with a patch/next-gen SKU
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Completely agree with all of this, except the bit about Cerny not being specific about RT. The wired interview doesn't contain the entire transcript. We don't actually know what was said, just what was reported. RT wasn't expected by many before the reveal (advert), and the interviewer may not have asked the right questions.

That's possible, totally agree. Has the author weighed in on this then? Because if he did say it, and it just wasn't reported, then it would be easy to figure out.

if that's who "Matt" is and I missed it then totally take back what I said. I had not seen or read anything revised where Cerny clarified. But I miss things like anyone else.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
It basically uses some characteristics of vapor as a heat transfer medium to spread it more evenly from a fairly small point source (die face) to a considerably larger surface area while occupying relatively little volume.



I'm sorry if I came across as rude, it wasn't the intention and definitely not aimed at you, specifically. I definitely respect honest curious inquiry (that's how I learned most stuff, after all).


Thanks. And no worries. This thread has seen its craziness and it is hard to parse through content without questioning their motives now and then.


Actually, this report about the effect of the Hovis Method mentions a One X that draws 199W. (!) As the article itself cautiously points out, we can't be 100% certain the way they're measuring power draw is the same as other reports. But they did get identical results as other outlets when testing original Xbox One. And the Hovis Method definitely would be expected to cause power variability like this.

Thank you for this. Having read the article I do have a few queries:

1) Am I correct in assuming that the word, "Binning" and "down-grading" are interchangeable insofar as disabling parts of the product because 100% of its constituent core components are not fully functional? And so presumably, every semi-custom APU powering the X, is binned given 4CUs are disabled within the GPU.

2) Does Hovis method means that each X mobo is individually tested at specific nodes to check for voltage (or amperage) against a reference and when variability is found for a specific junction/junctions, the power profile is customized to ensure extra power is delivered to those specific areas to compensate for shortfall, ensuring exact performance across all finished products?

If so, would this not mean that that yields for regular One, PS4 Slim and Pro would be worse if variance in voltage at certain nodes is discovered at testing phase (i.e. mobo with all the integral parts soldered on) and that entire assembled product would have been abandoned? Because if not, does it not inherently mean that not all the aforementioned models perform equally?

Actually it's not adiabatic.

In fact an adiabatic cooling system would be something of an oxymoron, lol.

Adiabatic means all the energy remains within the system, whereas cooling by definition requires energy to leave the system; thus heat exchanged with the system boundary, thus a non-adiabatic process.

An example of an adiabatic system (crudely) would be a PC CPU where the cooler stops working and all the heat generated remains in the chip and board and over time the system just gets hotter and hotter (it's not really adiabatic, because it will still exchange heat with the surroundings through conduction, convection and radiation - just very slowly).

Yes, you are absolutely right. I completely forgot that energy transfer does not take place outside the thermodynamic system in adiabatic process.

My dumbass finally did basic YT search and came up on this vid that explains what it is with supporting material for extra reading:




Extra resources.

It looks like cost is the primary consideration. It does make me wonder then, either MS or Sony (or both) could definitely go north of 200W (peak) system if it had a well designed vapour chamber (VC) solution (if cost was not a factor). As it is, I do wonder whether VC will be implemented as standard on next gen systems.

If it is not exactly 2:1, then no. This is probably just what the architects aimed for with the two processors in terms of flop to flop latency. You can pipeline a processor more to increase the frequency. CPUs use speculation in order to increase performance, so it makes sense to pipeline more (and do less between flops) and increase the frequency since you don't necessarily have to wait for the results of the previous operation before proceeding to the next one. I haven't looked much into GPU architectures (CPUs are my job), but they probably can't use speculation as much so it makes less sense to add flops and pipeline more, which keeps the frequencies down. But you can get more done per pipeline stage because the frequency is lower.

Thanks.

I am not well versed in CPU terminology and so I am unclear on what you mean by "pipeline" and "speculation" (are you alluding to CPU's Out of Order execution design paradigm for the latter).

We don't *know* that Sony has HW RT, because they haven't said it.


I thought the both Matt and the WIRED article confirmed it:

The GPU, a custom variant of Radeon's Navi family, will support ray tracing, a technique that models the travel of light to simulate complex interactions in 3D environments.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
I'm buying TLOU2, DS, Dying Light 2, Avengers, and maybe Tsushima and Watch Dogs Legion on this gen
Everything else including Cyberpunk, which is my most anticipated game at present, will be played on PS5 with a patch/next-gen SKU
I feel like at this point ghost of tsushima will be a launch title on ps5 and cross gen ofcourse . Weird that sony didnt delay tlous2 few months to make it a launch title for ps5 .(November 2020 instead of Feb 2020)
 

Rylen

Member
Feb 5, 2019
462
Is SSD confirmed? SSHD? StoreMI?

I'd choose a 2TB SSD Cache system like StoreMI over 500GB or NVMe SSD
 

dotyoureyes

Alt Account
Member
Jun 11, 2019
488
Vega56 has RT hardware?


I could have confirmed it for you in 2016 if you had asked me. Not saying I am "questioning" Matt... just saying confirming BC doesn' have as much weight.


Haha... and that is how new rumors are born..... how could you read his detailed post and arrived at that conclusion?
This is why insiders stop posting here ....people are way to over zealous and twist what people say over their fan war. It's ridiculous
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,303

Thanks, that thread was more entertaining to go through than the latest Neflix special :P

The question now is, can we trust this "Matt"?

110%

Him, Shinobi and ZhugeEX have a spotless record here and in the old site, and were also founding mods of this one.

PS: Maybe even owners? I'm not sure about this one...who owns Era anyway? :P
 

Munki

Member
Apr 30, 2019
1,212
John Sell, the guy who just left to go work for Intel.

Beaten, was about to say this guy.

0


Hardware architecture and technology, chief architect of the Xbox One, Scorpio, and Scarlett SoCs
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
User Banned (1 Week) - Continued Derailment of Next-gen thread
Baseless. Sure. It's clear you have zero interest in coming at the topic with intergity so join the others who are no longer seen.

You can't even give any reasons why you're saying what you're saying...
You are like trump.
Seriously wtf are u talking about?
It's not a hard concept to understand that a Navi or vega GPU can do "hardware RT" without any specialised hardware.

There is nothing dishonest or un moral about that, so please try and refrain from these crazy baseless accusations.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
I feel like I'm arguing against myself here LOL. It's strange to watch (what I tried to make) was a well thought-out post, get condensed into an argument about HW ray-tracing and what Sony has said.

Look, I believe that the PS5 will have HW RT. If you're going to quote this post, please include this part!

However, it appears that beyond insiders (who seem to be quite reliable), nothing I have seen (from Sony directly) is clear on this point.

Here is an example. The Xbox One X GPU supports Checkerboard and other reconstruction techniques. This is a true statement because there are games running this way today. The PS4 Pro has hardware acceleration for Checkerboard rendering. So it's not a false claim to say that both consoles GPU's support checkerboard, despite one console having HW cores and the other doesn't. In fact, I think if Microsoft were to issue a statement like that, nobody would question it. So a quote that says "the GPU supports Ray Tracing" is not the same as saying "The GPU has hardware accelerated Ray Tracing".

Of any place on the internet, this forum generally respects precision in how things are talked about.

So again, I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I have yet to see anything from Sony directly that confirms this, so in my opinion this topic is still considered a rumor no matter how good the insider is. A highly reliable rumor, but still a rumor.
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,185
Come on, this is absurd. It can easily go the other way too - as pointed out by Anthony, a Vega 56 CU is a perfectly capable realtime raytracing accelerator hardware. Did Microsoft namecheck "Nvidia RTX" in their announcement, like Sony did? No, they did not. Probably their avoidance of this direct reference means they aren't using RTX-like hardware, just plain old GPU compute for their hardware accelleration.

Seriously lol.
Trust, but verify. Your post is a perfect example of why traceability is important. It's so easy to get facts incorrect. Sony/Cerny never mentioned Nvidia RTX as a reference point. That wasn't even part of the original article. The article author added it after first publishing as a reference point to the current implementation of Ray tracing.

Notwithstanding the aggressive wording in your question, I would answer this way:

Cerny, more than anyone who is posting in this thread or anyone who speaks publicly about consoles in the industry, knows well the difference between hardware accelerated ray-tracing, and software ray-tracing. As the architect of the system, he would know himself precisely the amount of area and type of hardware accelerated Ray Tracing they support. So I found the *absence* of clarity on this point, particularly coming from him directly, to be extremely telling. Or to put it bluntly: Cerny chose not to be clear on this point and he would know the answer first hand.

Unlike, say, a "junior" (your term) on a marketing team who may not really understand those technical differences and thinks that "ray tracing" is just a buzzword so unintentionally puts it in a headline without the intent to be misleading.

Seems to me that, like 4K before it, both companies will claim they have "Ray Tracing" whether it's supported in silicon or not.

For better or worse, the Scarlett video was clear on this point. Cerny was not. Therefore, if we're being honest we do not know if Sony's implementation is HW accelerated or not.

Lastly, the very next sentence I say that I personally think it's likely they have it.

This is how I view the topic.
Matt already confirmed it's a hardware solution.

This point needs to drop already.
Matt has a great track record, but I don't believe it's perfect. He is not a direct source, he is not Sony/Cerny. We don't even know who he is, or what he does. The chain of traceability is broken. I choose to 100% trust what can be verified. You encourage others to believe him, and berate those who are skeptical; if you don't require verification of facts that's fine, but don't get mad when others do.

Right now I'm am choosing to believe his comments about how RT in both consoles, but I'm not 100%. Until directly confirmed, it's about levels of confidence.
 
Last edited:

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
I feel like I'm arguing against myself here LOL. It's strange to watch (what I tried to make) was a well thought-out post, get condensed into an argument about HW ray-tracing and what Sony has said.

Look, I believe that the PS5 will have HW RT. If you're going to quote this post, please include this part!

However, it appears that beyond insiders (who seem to be quite reliable), nothing I have seen (from Sony directly) is clear on this point.

Here is an example. The Xbox One X GPU supports Checkerboard and other reconstruction techniques. This is a true statement because there are games running this way today. The PS4 Pro has hardware acceleration for Checkerboard rendering. So it's not a false claim to say that both consoles GPU's support checkerboard, despite one console having HW cores and the other doesn't. In fact, I think if Microsoft were to issue a statement like that, nobody would question it. So a quote that says "the GPU supports Ray Tracing" is not the same as saying "The GPU has hardware accelerated Ray Tracing".

Of any place on the internet, this forum generally respects precision in how things are talked about.

So again, I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I have yet to see anything from Sony directly that confirms this, so in my opinion this topic is still considered a rumor no matter how good the insider is. A highly reliable rumor, but still a rumor.

Is Scarlett HW RT really HW RT?
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,754
I feel like I'm arguing against myself here LOL. It's strange to watch (what I tried to make) was a well thought-out post, get condensed into an argument about HW ray-tracing and what Sony has said.

Look, I believe that the PS5 will have HW RT. If you're going to quote this post, please include this part!

However, it appears that beyond insiders (who seem to be quite reliable), nothing I have seen (from Sony directly) is clear on this point.

Here is an example. The Xbox One X GPU supports Checkerboard and other reconstruction techniques. This is a true statement because there are games running this way today. The PS4 Pro has hardware acceleration for Checkerboard rendering. So it's not a false claim to say that both consoles GPU's support checkerboard, despite one console having HW cores and the other doesn't. In fact, I think if Microsoft were to issue a statement like that, nobody would question it. So a quote that says "the GPU supports Ray Tracing" is not the same as saying "The GPU has hardware accelerated Ray Tracing".

Of any place on the internet, this forum generally respects precision in how things are talked about.

So again, I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I have yet to see anything from Sony directly that confirms this, so in my opinion this topic is still considered a rumor no matter how good the insider is. A highly reliable rumor, but still a rumor.

That's nice sir, but what we want to know is do you believe the PS5 will have HW RT???


:D
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,142
Notwithstanding the aggressive wording in your question, I would answer this way:

Cerny, more than anyone who is posting in this thread or anyone who speaks publicly about consoles in the industry, knows well the difference between hardware accelerated ray-tracing, and software ray-tracing. As the architect of the system, he would know himself precisely the amount of area and type of hardware accelerated Ray Tracing they support. So I found the *absence* of clarity on this point, particularly coming from him directly, to be extremely telling. Or to put it bluntly: Cerny chose not to be clear on this point and he would know the answer first hand.

Unlike, say, a "junior" (your term) on a marketing team who may not really understand those technical differences and thinks that "ray tracing" is just a buzzword so unintentionally puts it in a headline without the intent to be misleading.

Seems to me that, like 4K before it, both companies will claim they have "Ray Tracing" whether it's supported in silicon or not.

For better or worse, the Scarlett video was clear on this point. Cerny was not. Therefore, if we're being honest we do not know if Sony's implementation is HW accelerated or not.

Lastly, the very next sentence I say that I personally think it's likely they have it.

Thank you for the answer. I try not to sound aggressive, though it is frustrating when someone of your authority comes wading in on the nonsense side of this debate.

In my are of work (programmer), the titles "Lead Developer", "Senior Developer", "Junior Developer" are common and not insulting at all. I wasn't aware this might be insulting in a marketing department context. I meant a staff member under your direct authority, that was new enough they might not know the lay of the land and suggest an outrageous "lie" (technically true).

I think Mark Cerny should be insulted you think he'd - knowing full well the difference, as you say - go out in an interview talking about GPU raytracing capabilities similar to Nvidia RTX (by name!), when he knows it's just plain old GPU compute. I don't think anyone high up in this industry has the nerve to do that, to be honest. It shocks me that you even consider this a possibility.

I also think you are giving way too much weight to the "clarity" provided by MS. Though my guess is that is because you are aware of their plans, and those plans are not plain old GPU compute. "Hardware accelerated" means very little in this regard. Technically, "hardware accelerated" means "not on the main CPU". Literally anything the GPU does is "hardware acceleration".

I am old enough to remember raytracing on my first computer, a 386SX. This model didn't even do floating point in hardware! You could buy, for no small change, an additional chip to fit in the motherboard - an Intel 80387SX math co-processor. This chip provided hardware accelerated floating point - which I used for raytracing using POV, and my word it made a massive difference. We have had "hardware accelerated" raytracing for a very long time, MS saying those keywords is not exclusionary to just using GPU compute in any way.
 
Last edited:

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I feel like I'm arguing against myself here LOL. It's strange to watch (what I tried to make) was a well thought-out post, get condensed into an argument about HW ray-tracing and what Sony has said.

Look, I believe that the PS5 will have HW RT. If you're going to quote this post, please include this part!

However, it appears that beyond insiders (who seem to be quite reliable), nothing I have seen (from Sony directly) is clear on this point.

Here is an example. The Xbox One X GPU supports Checkerboard and other reconstruction techniques. This is a true statement because there are games running this way today. The PS4 Pro has hardware acceleration for Checkerboard rendering. So it's not a false claim to say that both consoles GPU's support checkerboard, despite one console having HW cores and the other doesn't. In fact, I think if Microsoft were to issue a statement like that, nobody would question it. So a quote that says "the GPU supports Ray Tracing" is not the same as saying "The GPU has hardware accelerated Ray Tracing".

Of any place on the internet, this forum generally respects precision in how things are talked about.

So again, I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I believe the PS5 will have HW RT. I have yet to see anything from Sony directly that confirms this, so in my opinion this topic is still considered a rumor no matter how good the insider is. A highly reliable rumor, but still a rumor.
thats the nature of this forum im afraid. you had originally quoted my post and i saw absolutely nothing wrong with your post or your speculation. especially since you went out of your way to qualify everything.

ignore the noise.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.