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What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%
  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%
  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%
  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%

  • Total voters
    1,379
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DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
You won't get HBM2. It's a ridiculous proposition and has no real benefit period relative to cost and with Navi dropping it I have no idea why some are still clinging to that.

Just because some devkit might had a vega card in it which naturally ships with HBM2 memory doesn't mean jack. It's an EOL product, it's not coming back.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
You won't get HBM2. It's a ridiculous proposition and has no real benefit period and Navi dropping it I have no idea why some are still clinging to that.

Just because some devkit might had a vega card in it which naturally ship HBM2 memory doesn't mean jack. It's an EOL product, it's not coming back.
The rumor is from a pretty detailed reddit thread. And from what i recall they only had 8gb of it so the cost wasn't the factor. The power savings from 16gb ddr4 and 8gb hbm2 were apparently enough to push the clocks to 1.8 ghz which matches the gonzolo leak.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
You won't get HBM2. It's a ridiculous proposition and has no real benefit period relative to cost and with Navi dropping it I have no idea why some are still clinging to that.

Just because some devkit might had a vega card in it which naturally ships with HBM2 memory doesn't mean jack. It's an EOL product, it's not coming back.

The benefit is power consumption. But yeah it seems all but confirmed both consoles are Navi/next gen based. Only way hbm was going to happen is if Sony or MS said fuck it and went with some kind of Vega based design and we're launching this year. That isn't happening.

I suppose it's still a very very slight possibility we see something that is very very custom with hbm2 but it's like a .01% chance at this point seems like.

Like all the info we have has to be totally wrong and Sony is going with some kind of design similar to the Intel/AMD Vega collab chip.

It's not happening. Although I do think it's interesting AMD put a Vega chip paired with an Intel chip and never made a similar set up with their own cpu. Like that chip would work well in a console.
 
Apr 22, 2019
62
We know we can get software-based raytracing on a Vega 56 GPU (Crytek tech demo). Now my understanding is fairly limited on this subject, but is there any chance we'll see a combination of the two solutions to save on performance? (Hardware + software)

Surely, both MS and Sony must know how demanding ray-tracing is... Either they've found some sort of ingenouis solution or they're use of it will be fairly limited.
Not sure what Sony are using but judging by Lisa saying Microsoft "Co-engineered" the APU with them and the fact that DirectX12 was the first software supporting real-time raytracing when the RTX cards came out, I think they should be able to have the Scarlett well optimized for raytracing at launch. Especially with roughly a year and a half left to optimize DX12 and all its drivers for launch.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
The rumor is from a pretty detailed reddit thread. And from what i recall they only had 8gb of it so the cost wasn't the factor. The power savings from 16gb ddr4 and 8gb hbm2 were apparently enough to push the clocks to 1.8 ghz which matches the gonzolo leak.

Not to mention they reached to a prominent poster on this very thread and was by all accounts quite convincing
 
Oct 27, 2017
311
Mexico
User Banned (2 Weeks): Platform warring; previously banned for platform wars
scarlettmonster7tkwb.jpg
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Matt Thoughts on HBM2?

Personally I am doubt.

HBM2:
+Lower wattage
-Amount
-Split ram types
-Bandwidth unless you go 4096 bit bus, in which you're trading die space for HBM2 controllers.
-Cost

GDDR6:
-Higher wattage
+Cost
+Bandwidth
+Single memory pool
+Amount for cheap
+Small die space for controllers

It's not like GDDR6 needs to be cooled since they're far from the SOC.


No doubt this guy is a troll.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Matt Thoughts on HBM2?

Personally I am doubt.



No doubt this guy is a troll.

I mean based on E3 we know MS isn't doing it. I guess it could kind of be another Sony 8gb gddr5 Sony moment except with 16gb of hbm2.

It just seems very unlikely. Unless AMD + Sony truly is some insane custom shit that is proprietary.

Like Sony went to AMD and said we want 16/24gb of hbm2 and new chip you dont even have, let's build it and MS can't have it.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
I mean based on E3 we know MS isn't doing it. I guess it could kind of be another Sony 8gb gddr5 Sony moment except with 16gb of hbm2.

It just seems very unlikely. Unless AMD + Sony truly is some insane custom shit that is proprietary.

HBM2:
+Lower wattage
-Amount
-Split ram types
-Bandwidth unless you go 4096 bit bus, in which you're trading die space for HBM2 controllers.
-Cost

GDDR6:
-Higher wattage
+Cost
+Bandwidth
+Single memory pool
+Amount
+Small die space for controllers

Unless you need 800GB/s+ bandwidth there is not good reason to go with HBM2 over GDDR6.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
What are the chances of MS dropping the weaker SKU if third parties are really unhappy with it? Also what would MS do if they decide to not support it and only release for the stronger SKU as the games they are making wouldn't be possible on the weaker one?
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
What are the chances of MS dropping the weaker SKU if third parties are really unhappy with it? Also what would MS do if they decide to not support it and only release for the stronger SKU as the games they are making wouldn't be possible on the weaker one?
i did imagine they'll listen to dev's feedback after they the devs spend some time with it. They won't act on first impressions from devs.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
HBM2:
+Lower wattage
-Amount
-Split ram types
-Bandwidth unless you go 4096 bit bus, in which you're trading die space for HBM2 controllers.
-Cost

GDDR6:
-Higher wattage
+Cost
+Bandwidth
+Single memory pool
+Amount
+Small die space for controllers

Unless you need 800GB/s+ bandwidth there is not good reason to go with HBM2 over GDDR6.

Right. Pretty much the only reason I could see it happening is the Intel/Vega chip. Like AMD maybe pitched hey we can do that except beefier and with a ryzen CPU and we'll build it with you and it will be much lower tdp than what we can do otherwise.

Like basically a crazy custom chip with the full 64 cus and then toss in 8gb of cheap ddr4 2400 system ram or something and we'll give you a deal.

I can kind of see it if AMD had basically already developed that chip but didn't really have a use case for it because of apple + Intel and theyd rather sell discrete gpus in the PC space because of margins and Intel + Nvidia frankly have a stranglehold on the laptop market.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,934
HBM2:
+Lower wattage
-Amount
-Split ram types
-Bandwidth unless you go 4096 bit bus, in which you're trading die space for HBM2 controllers.
-Cost

GDDR6:
-Higher wattage
+Cost
+Bandwidth
+Single memory pool
+Amount
+Small die space for controllers

Unless you need 800GB/s+ bandwidth there is not good reason to go with HBM2 over GDDR6.
Firstly, the DDR4+HBM2 setup uses less power (and possibly less physical space?) than GDDR6, which would supposedly be applied to the GPU for higher clocks. Also, I remember hearing that the prices will drop faster than GDDR6 over the next few years. As well, it fixes some issues that plague the PS4, where the CPU takes more memory from the GPU than it actually uses. With HBCC, the dual RAM setup is unified memory. It appears to the devs as a single 20GB pool.

A breakdown from our fellow Era user BreakAtmo.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
What are the chances of MS dropping the weaker SKU if third parties are really unhappy with it? Also what would MS do if they decide to not support it and only release for the stronger SKU as the games they are making wouldn't be possible on the weaker one?

High. If there internal developers are not to happy with it how do you think third party are? Honestly if Xbox has changed as a division then they will listen to developer feedback.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA

If they can get cheap HBM2 ram and the faster types, 250GB/s+ per stack, then it makes sense to get two stacks for 8GB-16GB.

The more watt for GPU argument isn't compelling because you're clocking the GPU conservatively for heat. With GDDR6 the heat they're generating is away from the GPU so it's not a problem heat wise.

Thus the main advantage of a HBM2 console is overall lower TDP? For the pro refreshes in 3/4 years HBM3 might be the way to go.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Alright I guess I still wouldn't be surprised if Sony rolls up with some crazy custom ryzen hbm2 Apu. I've convinced myself lol.
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,943
What would dropping lockhart achieve if they still want all the games on og xbox one?
Counter Question: What would lockhart achieve if they still want all the games on og xbox one?

EDIT: Wow, MS focusing on SSD, and "only" having Navi and Zen 2 with an journalist claiming he's hearing PS5 is more powerful really broke some people huh?
 

Alameda

Banned
May 19, 2019
25
Project Scarlett is one console now, I don't see the reason for all the debate. Anywho, was gddr6 confirmed?
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
The people poopooing the hbm people, I hope you realize the people who believe it will happen are (most likely) refering to the hybrid 8gig hbm2 and 16 (or is it 12?) Gigs of ddr4
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
What would dropping lockhart achieve if they still want all the games on og xbox one?

They don't, not natively anyway. It'll be a streaming solution and not everyone has the bandwidth or caps for that. I think they will do xcloud but that isn't going to work for everyone. The idea would be a native box that can do all the new games natively if you don't have the IP for streaming. I think the problem is the X is very close to being able to do that anyway but then you create a branding nightmare/consumer confusion. They can't widely advertise forward compatibility and the xcloud solution will have to have like a walkthrough of IP speed and ask if you have data caps.

Then maybe you rebrand the x/put out a cheaper box that is a native lower res/spec box. It's just very hard to pull off without segmenting your userbase.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
The people poopooing the hbm people, I hope you realize the people who believe it will happen are (most likely) refering to the hybrid 8gig hbm2 and 16 (or is it 12?) Gigs of ddr4

That just makes it more nonsensical tbh.

Nvidia, AMD and Microsoft are all going with GDDR6 for a reason and that reason will apply to Sony as well with PS5.

Give it up, Team 2019 er I mean Team HBM!
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
That just makes it more nonsensical tbh.

Nvidia, AMD and Microsoft are all going with GDDR6 for a reason and that reason will apply to Sony as well with PS5.

Give it up, Team 2019 er I mean Team HBM!

It isn't that crazy imo. Ryzen + hbm2 gpu Apu + cheaper ddr4.

It's really just a question of how custom Sony went with AMD.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
It isn't that crazy imo. Ryzen + hbm2 gpu Apu + cheaper ddr4.

That rumour was batshit crazy. The guy said Sony were using slower rejected chips. Do people realise that Sony would run out of those chips in like a day of manufacturing? lol.

HBM2 is just too expensive. So expensive that they even announced a slower version of HBM (separate from HBM3) years ago that we've heard nothing of since.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,497
Seattle
No nonsense approach I see...

Wait a second. I thought that was the "all nonsense all the time" approach. Have we changed the diagnostic manual again?

On a more relevant topic: I just don't see that there's any evidence to support a claim that Lockhart isn't in the picture. The Lockhart / Anaconda strategy is all about price point, and with no announced pricing at this stage it would just muddy the picture. Microsoft is putting their technology in the best possible light, as they should, and leaving any details about SKUs and pricing for some time next year. It also gives them the opportunity to gauge the market and make specific commitments as late as possible. What's the downside? Causing a few people who rely on the rumor mill some angst? They'll have plenty of details out long before anyone has to make an actual purchase decision.

... unless Sony manages to pull a spring launch out of nowhere with a surprise announcement. I don't see it happening without leaking left and right through developers preparing launch titles, but it would clearly throw a scanner in the works. Echoes of the Saturn launch which was something of a complete disaster for all concerned.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
The benefit is power consumption. But yeah it seems all but confirmed both consoles are Navi/next gen based. Only way hbm was going to happen is if Sony or MS said fuck it and went with some kind of Vega based design and we're launching this year. That isn't happening.

I suppose it's still a very very slight possibility we see something that is very very custom with hbm2 but it's like a .01% chance at this point seems like.

Like all the info we have has to be totally wrong and Sony is going with some kind of design similar to the Intel/AMD Vega collab chip.

It's not happening. Although I do think it's interesting AMD put a Vega chip paired with an Intel chip and never made a similar set up with their own cpu. Like that chip would work well in a console.
While I am not expecting HBM..... just letting you know that no announced Navi GPU using HBM doesn't mean anything with regards of it making its way into a console. HBM isn't tied to Vega architecture. Its just RAM and memory controllers. XB1 OG had DDR3 Ram after all and yet shipped with a PU architecture whose counterparts were using GDDR5.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
That rumour was batshit crazy. The guy said Sony were using slower rejected chips. Do people realise that Sony would run out of those chips in like a day of manufacturing? lol.

HBM2 is just too expensive. So expensive that they even announced a slower version of HBM (separate from HBM3) years ago that we've heard nothing of since.
Yeah HBM2 is nonsense. The whole story made no sense.
Trying to see how fast you can get banned?
"Next Lefel" lmao... smh.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
Obviously these are just words which is a fair point of course, but this Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ame-service-to-offer-free-streaming-to-phones) has the following quote from Matt Booty head of Xbox Game Studios on Project Scarlett. This is the strongest statement around E3 by someone in the upper tier at Xbox yet other than Mike Ybarra's quote to Windows Central that "being able to say 'where games play best' is something very important to the team".
Not falling for their PR. We saw what they tried to do last gen. If Phil didn't say that at E3 where all eyes were on them then they aren't confident. That guy said the most powerful, emersive console. Not the most powerful and emersive console.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
What are the chances of MS dropping the weaker SKU if third parties are really unhappy with it? Also what would MS do if they decide to not support it and only release for the stronger SKU as the games they are making wouldn't be possible on the weaker one?
I just don't see why 3rd parties would be unhappy with it. With the machine targeting 1080p and still having raytracing and SSD it would likely be able to deliver better graphics than the big ones targeting 4K and higher.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
Obviously these are just words which is a fair point of course, but this Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ame-service-to-offer-free-streaming-to-phones) has the following quote from Matt Booty head of Xbox Game Studios on Project Scarlett. This is the strongest statement around E3 by someone in the upper tier at Xbox yet other than Mike Ybarra's quote to Windows Central that "being able to say 'where games play best' is something very important to the team".

Certainly reinforces the idea that they're aiming to be top dog from a power perspective. That said, the concept of power is a bit loose this early on - so it's essentially meaningless.
We could very well see a situation where Xbox takes the Tflops crown, and Sony get a better memory solution (or the other way around).
There's no reason Microsoft couldn't state that they're the power leader even if it's not necessarily as impressive to play.

This all hypothetical of course. I'm just saying that the concept of 'most powerful' can be twisted easily.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,874
I just don't see why 3rd parties would be unhappy with it. With the machine targeting 1080p and still having raytracing and SSD it would likely be able to deliver better graphics than the big ones targeting 4K and higher.
The dilemma for the developers is that, without Lockhart you can target the high-end consoles (Anaconda, PS5) in which case, the power difference is negligible and the optimisations/sacrifices imperceivable.

On top of that, with the overlap of current-gen and next-gen, that would be an additional SKU to have to work around for all cross-gen games...
- PS4, PS4 Pro
- Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X
- PS5
- Xbox L, Xbox A
 

AudiophileRS

Member
Apr 14, 2018
378
This is my rough understanding of where we're likely at with AMD...?

NAVI "Mid Range" ~2019
RDNA µarch + GCN ISA
36-40 CUs
No RT
TSMC 7nm

NAVI "High End" ~2020
RDNA µarch + GCN ISA
>40 CUs
RT in Consoles/Semi-Custom Devices Only
TSMC 7nm

"NEXT GEN" ~2020-2021
RDNA2 µarch + ?? ISA
RT
TSMC 7nm+ EUV


Also, asking anyone more versed in the specific area: could VRS theoretically be added in as a customisation for console manufacturers if the base RDNA µarch / GCN ISA doesn't support it?
 
Last edited:

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
I just don't see why 3rd parties would be unhappy with it. With the machine targeting 1080p and still having raytracing and SSD it would likely be able to deliver better graphics than the big ones targeting 4K and higher.
It could hold back what next gen games are able to achieve, for example Sony said Spider-Man couldn't get any faster because the console just wouldn't let us but on PS5 he can go as fast as a jet, that's one aspect of it.
 
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