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When do you think the PS5 reveal will take place?

  • January

    Votes: 6 0.3%
  • February

    Votes: 1,172 65.7%
  • March

    Votes: 273 15.3%
  • April

    Votes: 81 4.5%
  • May

    Votes: 116 6.5%
  • June

    Votes: 48 2.7%
  • Later

    Votes: 89 5.0%

  • Total voters
    1,785
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,605
Well that pretty much settles that and does give us something to chew on. If Sony has originally started reworking the PS5 back in 2017-2018 for a 2020 release date, then why was AMD testing the chip all the way up until 6 months ago?

Such a chip would be 1 year ahead of the final PS5, so pushing it through development gives them lower powered dev kits but architecturally mostly accurate dev kits for developing games and, more importantly, testing backwards compatibility so that they can say day one that PS5 is backwards compatible with PS4 (and possibly also PS1, PS2 and PS3).

Is this worth the money of pushing through development? Not sure. But maybe they had already sunk enough into the 2019 PS5 that this was a way of at least getting some use out of that investment.

It would also explain why there is no mention whatsoever of RT in the GitHub leak for the PS5 chips. Because 2019 PS5 didn't have it.

2019 PS5 - 36(/40)CUs and aiming $399, same butterfly design as PS4Pro, no RT
2020 PS5 - 52(/60)CUs and aiming $499, clover design, has RT
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,632
Texas
Is it out of the ordinary for a company to have multiple plans in place and exploring only one of them fully, and if it isn't working out they shift to one of those other plans?

IE: hey let's make this machine this way and wait, nah, we aren't really going to get the kind of performance we want, so let's go with that other option where it's beefier but the architecture is a little weird, or it requires the box being a little bigger for better cooling, etc.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Such a chip would be 1 year ahead of the final PS5, so pushing it through development gives them lower powered dev kits but architecturally mostly accurate dev kits for developing games and, more importantly, testing backwards compatibility so that they can say day one that PS5 is backwards compatible with PS4 (and possibly also PS1, PS2 and PS3).

Is this worth the money of pushing through development? Not sure. But maybe they had already sunk enough into the 2019 PS5 that this was a way of at least getting some use out of that investment.

So basically, "We've already sunk enough money into these chips. Might as well give them to the studios as low level devkits while we work on the real chip"? That actually sounds pretty plausible especially if they knew some of these studios had games they would need to test BC on.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
What pressure??? All MS did was post a vid of their console giving people answers to their console and gave free promo to Sony. Now everyone is asking questions on a daily basis about the PS Xbox is mentioned to be skeptical about the PS's power but Sony is the mysterious one. I hear more speculations on PS games and dont hear crud about MS.
I would have preferred that Sony had pressure. I know it is about hardware in this sub, but at the end it is about game. I still don't understand how we didn't saw gameplay of Halo or Forza in 2019. You can't build hype with "in engine" trailer.
And that's my main problem with next gen, something Dusk just clarified : a lot of announcement was scrapped in 2019. It is in 8 months and we saw nothing.
 

AndyMc1888

Member
Jul 16, 2019
1,020
When MS was working on Scorpio, they had a 2016 version and a 2017 version. They ended up going for the 2017 in the end for the extra power. I would imagine Sony did the same for the PS5, have a 2019 plan and a 2020 plan, look at the what level of power and jump each console would provide and eventually decide.
I'm sure most company's have plans like that - this doesn't involve getting chips made and tested though without a massive hit financially
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,605
So basically, "We've already sunk enough money into these chips. Might as well give them to the studios as low level devkits while we work on the real chip"? That actually sounds pretty plausible especially if they knew some of these studios had games they would need to test BC on.

Also lines up with a lot of the chatter about PS5 dev kits being ahead of XSX ones. Also explains the 2Ghz clock speed, they were pushing the clocks as hard as they could with the dev kits to get as high a performance out of the APUs even though that would never really work in a retail situation - simply to provide better performance closer to the final box.

Explains how there was so much emphasis on BC in the GitHub testing too.

You get low powered dev kits without RT. You get a platform that is actually pretty much 100% accurate for back compatibility if they use a clover design. 18CU and 36CU Navi to develop backwards compatibility on, which will not use RT anyway.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,386
Am I the only one who thinks that MS supporting their old consoles for a year or two after launching XSX makes the launch of Lockhart unlikely in 2020?

Like, they already have cheaper alternatives on the market

Those cheaper alternatives aren't future proof and consumers will know it. By the time XSX launches Holiday 2020 we'll already be getting wind of the 2021 games that won't be playable on XB1.

I don't think they really need to launch Lockhart in 2020, because hardcore enthusiasts will be buying up all the supply anyway, but it at least needs to come out in 2021, if XSX will be prohibitively expensive for most gamers.
 
Last edited:

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,999
Am I the only one who thinks that MS supporting their old consoles for a year or two after launching XSX makes the launch of Lockhart unlikely in 2020?

Like, they already have cheaper alternatives on the market
I'm with you, I thought Lockhart meant moving on from last gen.

I don't know about it not coming, but I think some plans changed again recently.

I say this because the last few generations consoles got cheaper revisions.

So....MS don't plan on the Series X dropping in price? Why make a weaker version vs. a cheaper revision? And still do cross gen longer than usual for exclusives?
 
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Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
That's a very good question.

The more I think about it the more I hate their strategy of all first party games being cross gen. The expensive Series X and affordable Series S concept is great, but it's completely upended by the continued support of the XB1 consoles.
Yep. And even if this is supposed to be "pro consumer" the chance that the Xbox One S game version will run poorly is quite high.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
Is it out of the ordinary for a company to have multiple plans in place and exploring only one of them fully, and if it isn't working out they shift to one of those other plans?

IE: hey let's make this machine this way and wait, nah, we aren't really going to get the kind of performance we want, so let's go with that other option where it's beefier but the architecture is a little weird, or it requires the box being a little bigger for better cooling, etc.
It makes sense. No need to put all your eggs in one basket with something that is quite difficult to get right as is.

At the very least, I'm sure they have at least one solid backup plan just in case.
 

Swadedtx

Banned
Dec 21, 2019
8
I would have preferred that Sony had pressure. I know it is about hardware in this sub, but at the end it is about game. I still don't understand how we didn't saw gameplay of Halo or Forza in 2019. You can't build hype with "in engine" trailer.
And that's my main problem with next gen, something Dusk just clarified : a lot of announcement was scrapped in 2019. It is in 8 months and we saw nothing.

I thought of this too I feel like the console and all launch games will be shown off at GDC they cant possibly go any later than that because studios are going to want to show off and advertise their games.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Also lines up with a lot of the chatter about PS5 dev kits being ahead of XSX ones. Also explains the 2Ghz clock speed, they were pushing the clocks as hard as they could with the dev kits to get as high a performance out of the APUs even though that would never really work in a retail situation - simply to provide better performance closer to the final box.

Explains how there was so much emphasis on BC in the GitHub testing too.

You get low powered dev kits without RT. You get a platform that is actually pretty much 100% accurate for back compatibility if they use a clover design. 18CU and 36CU Navi to develop backwards compatibility on, which will not use RT anyway.

It also likes up with the final devkits coming out in the summer time that will no doubt have the RT hardware and bells and whistles missing.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I would have preferred that Sony had pressure. I know it is about hardware in this sub, but at the end it is about game. I still don't understand how we didn't saw gameplay of Halo or Forza in 2019. You can't build hype with "in engine" trailer.
And that's my main problem with next gen, something Dusk just clarified : a lot of announcement was scrapped in 2019. It is in 8 months and we saw nothing.

It's a lot to ask developers to do slices of gameplay, I think it's one of the reasons, besides the obvious one that Sony doesn't have a ton of PS4 games in development anymore, that Sony hasn't been going to as many shows as they did earlier in the gen.
 
Albert Panello comments on SOC design (1)

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
maybe Albert Penello would be able to at least shed some knowledge on this hypothetical. which would be less expensive?

If I understand the question posed, the idea is if it's cheaper to run an existing chip at a higher spec (therefore having less usable parts) to hit a performance target (say 10 TFLOPS) vs. building a new chip from scratch that has overhead to disable CU's to also get to 10 TFLOPS?

Is that the gist?

This is a super interesting question I'll have to think about it. There are a lot of variables at play, not the least of which is - when is this decision being made?

In general, the answer would doubtless be to build the right chip. Getting good yields and having overhead is going to be the most cost effective in the long run. That said, the sunk costs for a whole new chip development are, like, A LOT. So you don't want to do that twice.

But really it's sort of unanswerable without a lot more information. I think it really comes down to how much the yields are impacted and how the longevity of the good chips are affected. I've said before that +/- 10% is a good rule of thumb where you could consider the performance increases vs. the yield implications to be tolerable.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (since I've said this often), I also need to point out the case and cooling design limitations. You can can crank the silicon all the way up until you only have 1 good chip off the wafer, but if you can't cool it once it's in the console, it's no good. So that's a limiting factor in this as well.

(QUICK EDIT: Remember that the cost of throwing away bad chips goes up at a faster rate then the number of bad chips. So if you were expecting 90% yields, removing 20% more chips is ~30% more expensive per chip. Removing 30% more chips makes each chip 50% more expensive, and so on)
 
Last edited:
Jun 23, 2019
6,446

lol I don't think so, but my personal opinion is that PS5 and XSX are both basically 12TF give or take. The real question is, who is willing to jump the gun and take a price hit to get it down to $399-449? I truly believe one of them is going to bite the bullet and price it around there.
 

RingRang

Alt account banned
Banned
Oct 2, 2019
2,442
Yep. And even if this is supposed to be "pro consumer" the chance that the Xbox One S game version will run poorly is quite high.

It would have been fine to just promise the launch window games on the XB1, but after that i just don't see the point. It seems this decision was 100% based on game pass subscriptions and wanting those people to feel included.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
New York, NY
Such a chip would be 1 year ahead of the final PS5, so pushing it through development gives them lower powered dev kits but architecturally mostly accurate dev kits for developing games and, more importantly, testing backwards compatibility so that they can say day one that PS5 is backwards compatible with PS4 (and possibly also PS1, PS2 and PS3).

Is this worth the money of pushing through development? Not sure. But maybe they had already sunk enough into the 2019 PS5 that this was a way of at least getting some use out of that investment.

It would also explain why there is no mention whatsoever of RT in the GitHub leak for the PS5 chips. Because 2019 PS5 didn't have it.

2019 PS5 - 36(/40)CUs and aiming $399, same butterfly design as PS4Pro, no RT
2020 PS5 - 52(/60)CUs and aiming $499, clover design, has RT
This all makes sense, but why do you feel Sony decided to increase price by $100 as well as respin the chip?
 

Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
Amen, the fact that we're even considering the possibility that the 9TF leak is true it's baffling imo
I also don't believe the 9tf "leak" but we shouldn't straight up dismiss it. I just think people are overacting about all the "news" that comes out. We only know what the insiders have told us and some messy information without any context.
That's a very good question.

The more I think about it the more I hate their strategy of all first party games being cross gen. The expensive Series X and affordable Series S concept is great, but it's completely upended by the continued support of the XB1 consoles.
MS has a scale down button so don't worry. Also games will be the same as this gen and in the beginning wont be able to take advantage of the massive CPU and SSD speeds.......... It's a different system altogether, very difficult to take advantage of newer and faster hardware. That's why dev teams need to take 2 year time to learn how to take advantage of new hardware. /s

I personally want first party to take advantage and show us what the new hardware can do...
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
I still think Lockhart could be a very good idea if they price it right ($150-$200 cheaper than PS5) and if MS pull the current gen off sale. I do also think it needs to come out at launch
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Another small reminder of why it is good get some perspective:


But Sony's doomed, Cerny's washed up, and Jim Ryan won't return our calls.

Paging Chris Metal - I hope he can make a gif about the overreaction, concern trolling and muddying the water in this thread someday.

This game looks insane especially towards the 2nd half. The Decima engine is legit.

Indubitably. I may post a screen from there down the line.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,072
I also don't believe the 9tf "leak" but we shouldn't straight up dismiss it. I just think people are overacting about all the "news" that comes out. We only know what the insiders have told us and some messy information without any context.
Yeah, let's not forget that The Radeon RX 5700 XT is 9.75 TF and that is their current flagship card. You'd think there would be more push back against the 12 TF Xbox Series X Rumor than the 9 TF PS5 rumor, though I wonder how much of that is people still conflating AMD flops with Nvidia flops.

Regardless if one, both or neither of the rumors are true I expect games to look and run pretty similarly on both machines.
 

xem

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,043
If I understand the question posed, the idea is if it's cheaper to run an existing chip at a higher spec (therefore having less usable parts) to hit a performance target (say 10 TFLOPS) vs. building a new chip from scratch that has overhead to disable CU's to also get to 10 TFLOPS?

Is that the gist?

This is a super interesting question I'll have to think about it. There are a lot of variables at play, not the least of which is - when is this decision being made?

In general, the answer would doubtless be to build the right chip. Getting good yields and having overhead is going to be the most cost effective in the long run. That said, the sunk costs for a whole new chip development are, like, A LOT. So you don't want to do that twice.

But really it's sort of unanswerable without a lot more information. I think it really comes down to how much the yields are impacted and how the longevity of the good chips are affected. I've said before that +/- 10% is a good rule of thumb where you could consider the performance increases vs. the yield implications to be tolerable.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (since I've said this often), I also need to point out the case and cooling design limitations. You can can crank the silicon all the way up until you only have 1 good chip off the wafer, but if you can't cool it once it's in the console, it's no good. So that's a limiting factor in this as well.

(QUICK EDIT: Remember that the cost of throwing away bad chips goes up at a faster rate then the number of bad chips. So if you were expecting 90% yields, removing 20% more chips is ~30% more expensive per chip. Removing 30% more chips makes each chip 50% more expensive, and so on)
fantastic info, thanks!
 

MykhellMikado

Alt account
Banned
Jan 13, 2020
823
Correct me if I'm wrong but the reason chiplets work in CPUs is that the cache is there to alleviate some of the latency issues caused by the multi chip design. With GPU chiplets, how would that work? We've got several years of multi GPU systems showing the inefficiencies of such design. This sounds like it would be a nightmare for devs.

chiplets and separate GPUs are two different animals. As you pointed out, in a separate GPU there is no shared cache and communication is limited over over the bus interface. A theoretical chiplet could have a shared memory bank and cache and the easiest method would be to have the chiplets draw every other frame from a shared memory cache. Also it's really the next evolution of GPUs much in the way dual processors in PCs became hyperthreaded multicore processors.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
If I understand the question posed, the idea is if it's cheaper to run an existing chip at a higher spec (therefore having less usable parts) to hit a performance target (say 10 TFLOPS) vs. building a new chip from scratch that has overhead to disable CU's to also get to 10 TFLOPS?

Is that the gist?

This is a super interesting question I'll have to think about it. There are a lot of variables at play, not the least of which is - when is this decision being made?

In general, the answer would doubtless be to build the right chip. Getting good yields and having overhead is going to be the most cost effective in the long run. That said, the sunk costs for a whole new chip development are, like, A LOT. So you don't want to do that twice.

But really it's sort of unanswerable without a lot more information. I think it really comes down to how much the yields are impacted and how the longevity of the good chips are affected. I've said before that +/- 10% is a good rule of thumb where you could consider the performance increases vs. the yield implications to be tolerable.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (since I've said this often), I also need to point out the case and cooling design limitations. You can can crank the silicon all the way up until you only have 1 good chip off the wafer, but if you can't cool it once it's in the console, it's no good. So that's a limiting factor in this as well.

(QUICK EDIT: Remember that the cost of throwing away bad chips goes up at a faster rate then the number of bad chips. So if you were expecting 90% yields, removing 20% more chips is ~30% more expensive per chip. Removing 30% more chips makes each chip 50% more expensive, and so on)

Thanks. Mecha Meister, can you pin this post?

Also, I think you might be happy to know that the resurrected Lockhart apparently received a ~50% GPU boost, according to some benchmarks for a gaming APU.
 

Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
Another small reminder of why it is good get some perspective:




Paging Chris Metal - I hope he can make a gif about the overreaction, concern trolling and muddying the water in this thread someday.



Indubitably. I may post a screen from there down the line.
Now think what they can do with 14tf, RT, SSD, VRS.......*HBM and ReRam. My brother, it's going to be insane!

* i don't have to explain it, do i?

Yeah, let's not forget that The Radeon RX 5700 XT is 9.75 TF and that is their current flagship card. You'd think there would be more push back against the 12 TF Xbox Series X Rumor than the 9 TF PS5 rumor, though I wonder how much of that is people still conflating AMD flops with Nvidia flops.

Regardless if one, both or neither of the rumors are true I expect games to look and run pretty similarly on both machines.
Me too, but that doesn't mean i want a very strong PS5. I just want to buy one time and not think about it for another 6/7 years. The best system they can build now. Not some system that needs to be replaced in 3/4 years...... That's why if it is 9tf i'm not going to buy it.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Random neutral post comprising of creation leveraging 8C/8T 1.6Ghz Jaguar and 1.84T GCN 1.0 Radeon GPU equivalent to something between Radeon 7850 and 7870, to cool our antsy jets down:

Y113y1l.jpg
Hard to be impressed after seeing Hellblade 2

/s
 

Xbox FanFest

Banned
Dec 30, 2019
369
What pressure??? All MS did was post a vid of their console giving people answers to their console and gave free promo to Sony. Now everyone is asking questions on a daily basis about the PS Xbox is mentioned to be skeptical about the PS's power but Sony is the mysterious one. I hear more speculations on PS games and dont hear crud about MS.
Doesn't seem like much are asking about Xbox. Seems like most here are trying to figure out and hoping the PS5 is the more powerful overall.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Another small reminder of why it is good get some perspective:




Paging Chris Metal - I hope he can make a gif about the overreaction, concern trolling and muddying the water in this thread someday.



Indubitably. I may post a screen from there down the line.

Not going to lie. I have no desire to replay DS again, but if they re-released it on PS5 and it melted faces, I would play it again lol.
 
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