Yeah i know, but i was thinking about switching between Nvidia and AMD GPU and BC issues...MS had problems with Nvidia back in first Xbox days i think.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation |OT10| - We aim to transition those from OT9 at a pace never seen before. [SEE THREADMARKS FOR CHANCE AT GLORY]
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Ah OK, you meant that particular style of animation. Agree, looks crappy and fake.
Show me evidence of this please. Games will 'peg' to the max stats that they can before other elements of the system serve as a bottleneck, like is always the case in every other console ever made. For X1X, that is sometimes the CPU. In other cases, it is showing huge gains to GPU -tasked performance. Witcher 3, for example, had better texture filtering, better image resolution and better framerates alongside huge gains in loading times. Lots of other games also had notable upgrades beyond just the framerate. Boost Mode only upped framerates (very modestly for GPU-heavy titles but much better for CPU-heavy loads) and slight loading times improvements whereas the X1X approach allowed for all sorts of different improvements across the board in many unpatched games (texture filtering, framerates, resolution boosts, better v-sync utilization, way better load times). How can you say these approaches are nearly identical? They just aren't. And yes, it is literally the definition of handicap as a verb.
With the limited info at this stage, we can definitely agree on this. :)
No that is not what inductive reasoning means. Citing what features would correlate *if* you assume the same set up would be used for PS5 is NOT an inductive argument suggesting that there are more CU's. An inductive argument for more CU's would instead cite evidence that can be built up in aggregate to promote the probability that there are more CU's. You are doing that just fine to argue that a PS5 boost mode exists, but that is not the same thing as there being more CU's. To be inductive, you need to have a way to apply Bayes Theorem. But having a boost mode in PS5 does not give you a prior to start with.
You say here our logic is similar or the same in some ways. It isn't. My argument is indeed inductive. Yours is not, as explained already. My argument does have a way to form a prior (we can use track records for the insiders and we can also use public comments from MS about their power ambitions and see how those compare to previous cycles and similar statements; we can likewise inquire about why MS would let Lockhart exist if not for needing a cheaper box to undercut PS5 on price, which is only necessary if PS5 is cheaper than XSX). See how those things independently offer higher odds as they are added into iterations of Bayes' formula? That increase in the likelihood of the 12 TF outcome as each piece of new info gets accounted for is what makes it inductive. For your case, how probable is it that PS5 is not the most conservative machine in the way you have described it? I dunno. Neither do you. They are not making statements to help suggest otherwise nor is other info suggesting otherwise in a uniquely compelling manner (yet). So what is your prior? Knowing there is a boost mode does not tell us it has more CU's as we know that is not a requirement for such a mode generally speaking.
You cannot honestly claim that there are common causative factors here because you don't even know why the Pro gated its resources in the first place and have no idea whether PS5 even has similar concerns in place. This is why I asked you for *other* reasons for more CU's outside of just pointing to a boost mode. You can complain about my criticism of your claims all day but that doesn't transform 'boost mode = more CU's in PS5' into a rational argument, inductive or otherwise. There needs to be other corroborative evidence (not inversely correlated either) that can be grouped in aggregate. We ideally wanna apply Bayes' Theorem but your boost mode reference does not itself provide a meaningful prior without much more info to accompany it.
You already based your entire model here on there being a boost mode akin to how it worked in Pro, which is info you take for granted from DF and Sony's statements on the matter. I need not know you to point out that you are also leaning on arguments from authority. And that is ok. We both agree on that front.
Ugh. This is another non-sequitur. It does not promote the probability of there being more CU's. Even worse, it's totally silly! One of their platforms will obviously be seen someday down the road as being their most conservative machine ever. There is nothing as of today that tells us it will or won't be the PS5 at this stage. Ya can't just assume PS5 can't be really conservative in CU count just for the hell of it and pretend that is a logical conclusion. PS4 was very conservative in lots of ways and it paid off well for them. There are decades worth of evidence showing us that being top dog in GPU tech does not correlate meaningfully with being top dog in sales, to say nothing of the issue of diminishing returns being a legit real thing for where these consoles land visually imho. Also, what you consider to be conservative might not be what they see as conservative. I could easily imagine them seeing an 8-9 TF machine with bespoke RT hardware and great SSD tech, more RAM and a great CPU upgrade as being a very solid starting point for PS5. Especially if it really was intended to launch in 2019. And I'd agree with them fwiw.
If their strategy was to be better priced than Xbox then that has to come at the expense of GPU ambition. Additionally, they have not at all promoted the idea of their machine being some super powered graphics processor, instead talking up their SSD tech and accessibility priorities; so should we take that as an indicator of a strategy that is befitting something churning out the more TF's on the console market? I personally am doubtful. At least this counter argument would include a logical connection between their current gen strategy and next gen's, where as yours isn't even providing that.
well, it apparently can't emulate very well, but...
I think there's no technical reason preventing full BC with Zen 2 CPUs, now. Just a matter of if Sony thinks it's worth their time and money.
No
It's ok, but a lot of people are hoping that they'd follow in Microsoft's steps come next-gen
I don't think they will
I see what you mean, but the calibre of that catalogue is falling quite short of the Game Pass benchmark that has been set. I should have been clearer with my original statement.
MS' problems were because of a really stupid deal they made with NV where they allowed themsleves to be blackmailed.
Architectures are different, true, but so is RDNA from the stuff that AMD used to make back in RSX days. Back then, the best AMD had was R520 which was still pretty much a R300 derivative, which is 2002-2003 tech. AMD didn't introduce TeraScale until 2007 and even that is very different from GCN (let alone RDNA).
I don't think anybody is going with that videocard. My post was responding to a supposed claim of fact--not speculation--that Navi couldn't have game clock over 1.7 GHz. Obviously, that is completely incorrect.
One X still sells less than One S, despite now being $350 including a bundled game, and despite being so very superior to its predecessor in every way except price. Your proposed $600 solus XSX would face a considerable uphill struggle, even with all its sexy nextgen best-in-class flair. But in the event, I don't think it'll be necessary for Microsoft to go that high. The technology suite they've described should be plenty viable at $500.
He might've truly meant a 200% improvement. The recent apparent leak suggested the Series X SSD will top out below 3.5GB/s. The Sony patent discovered long ago suggests speeds as high as 10GB/s might be possible with careful engineering.
I don't believe we'll be seeing that performance in PS5 myself, but maybe the poster does.
That's even easier to emulate than Cell :)
Yup, time and money. It also depends on how people define BC, I doubt we will ever see a PS2 disc going into a PS5 and allowing you to play as MS did with the Xbox One. But selling PS1, 2 and 3 games in PSN? I'm sure it's going to happen. Sony will probably try to build "the ultimate library" overtime on PSN, all PS generations in one place. I doubt anyone will care if only 100 PS3 games will be available on PS4 as long as the right games are available.
What I really want is Sony to promise us that this is the last time we are going to buy these BC games. I'm cool with buying ICO, as long as I don't have to buy ICO ever again for a future console. I've bought HL2 in 2004 and it's still playable (I'm actually playing HL all over again, preparing myself for Alyx), consoles should be the same. If I bought a game on a Sony or MS console in 2020, I want it to be available to play it on their console in 2040.
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Exactly.
1st party games that I would buy this year if it wasn't for gamepass
Halo Infinite 60 -New Forza 60- Ori 30 - Battletoads (30) - Grounded (30) Ms Flight Simulator 60 = 270
Already paid a year and a half of Gamepass Ultimate just for these games.
I wouldn't have ever bought those games, but I would have certainty played them, and probably enjoyed them if I had Game Pass. Guess I'll just wait to see what Sony does.
If you would never buy Forza or Halo, then Xbox doesn't really matter for you. Just stick with Sony and be happy.
When the creator of the most important third party engine vouches for a technology, I pay attention.
Now do Killzone 2 :)
While I think PS3 BC is possible, DS isn't exactly a great test of the hurdles that need to be overcome. It's not hard to find videos of it running at 120fps using RPCS3, while the likes of Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, and TLoU chug along at 15-20fps, with a ton of visual issues (KZ2 MP seems to do well enough, though). It's going to be those games that heavily relied upon the SPUs that cause the most trouble. There's no one better placed than Sony to solve those problems, and RPCS3 has made great progress on a shoestring budget, which should give us even more hope. But still, assuming that full BC is a foregone conclusion seems a tad optimistic to me.
Pretty much. SPUs have off the charts vector performance that murders general use x86.
Don't Playstation fans outnumber Xbox fans on Era like 95-5?
I'm not sure since I don't post in the gaming section much. Just kind of get that impression.
Or people are just more interested in the ps5 🤷♂️ Can be either or..
Do you want to know me better?
My name is João Paulo, I'm 41 years old, Brazilian, I've been an Xbox fan since 2001.
My Gamertag is open, you can take a look, it's the same name I use here. I've been following the forum for a long time and now I decided to be part of it.
Can't tell if sarcasm or not, especially given all the efforts Xbox are making on strengthening and diversifying it's first party lineup. Or maybe you think the Xbox=Halo/Forza meme is a good thing, dunno.
edit: If you were being sarcastic, just ignore this. Maybe I'm slow today.
We all have different opinions, as someone more into jRPGs, I would probably use Now more.
When I first joined gaf the number felt more even, there's a lot of people on team whatever they purchase and think is best, if xbox do well in the USA it will probably swing back again.
That's a good point. I'm find myself interested in any information about both, especially after skipping this generation entirely lol.
Dunno if I'll be able to afford both unfortunately but would if I could since games are games and loyalty to one piece of plastic has never made sense to me.
Of course it was sarcasm, because you talk about diversity but I mentioned several games of various genres (flight simulator, metroidvania, survivor, FPS, hack and slash) and none of them is your thing. Mybe ur yhing is Jrpg or something.
I don't even like metroidvania myself, but if Ori wasn't on the gamepass I would buy without thinking.
You weren't talking to me, actually (I like all these genres save for JRPG). But I get it, I was slow as fuck and should've followed the conversation better.
Is it normal for a patent to be in the name of the employee and not the company that pays his wage to come up with innovations?
Can't believe every PS secret sauce patent is in Cernys name, and not Sony's. In my industry, any formulations I come up with are owned by the company that pays me the big bucks to do it.
Can't believe every PS secret sauce patent is in Cernys name, and not Sony's. In my industry, any formulations I come up with are owned by the company that pays me the big bucks to do it.
Their issues, at least during that gen, came down to disagreements over price flexibility as the gen carried on iirc. Thought I read that was the reason they dropped Xbox in favor of 360 so early.
As far as I know, the One X doesn't limit the GPU for non-enhanced titles like the PS4 Pro does. The PS4 Pro quite literally shuts half of the GPU down for non-enhanced titles. And boost mode simply increases the clock speed of the 1/2 of the Pro's GPU from 800MHz to 911MHz. So you basically get a raw 14% frame rate improvement on non-enhanced PS4 titles on the Pro.
But on the X, Oddworld saw an 80% frame rate improvement, which is well beyond the clock speed improvement.
Microsoft is allowing games to use the whole GPU for non-enhanced titles.
If I had to guess why Sony does not, it might be an API limitation. It might be something they'll have a hard time working around for PS4 titles on the PS5.
Microsoft Xbox One X review
One year on from the release of the PlayStation 4 Pro, the fortunes of Sony's 'supercharged' console have varied. While…
www.eurogamer.net
"It's games with unlocked frame-rates that allow us to see just what this machine can do, though. Hitman, predictably, doesn't have its Xbox One X patch out at the time of testing, but in its standard form, you can run it with an unlocked frame-rate, where we saw up to an 80 per cent increase in performance. Oddworld New 'n' Tasty is a rare title to offer both a 30fps lock and unlocked frame-rate support. It's not quite locking to 60fps, but the largest delta between base and X performance is a creditable 70 per cent. Another cool test to try - the original on-disc code for Assassin's Creed Unity also has an unlocked frame-rate. On Xbox One X, the early stages of the game hit 50-60fps, temporarily transforming the game."
PS4 Pro boost mode: a game-changer for unpatched titles?
UPDATE 14/2/17 3:30pm: Rounding off our analysis of PS4 Pro's upcoming boost mode, we take a look at a title that clear…
www.eurogamer.net
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You're likely talking about the difference between an inventor and an assignee.
An inventor is the one who conceives of the claimed invention.
The assignee is the one who actually owns the patent - the one who can license it and collect royalties, who can sue others for infringement, etc.
Without looking about the patents you're talking about, it is overwhelmingly likely any Playstation patents to Cerny are assigned to Sony.
Also keep in mind that patent applications often publish without the assignee listed. In this case, the assignee is added later during prosecution.
The PS4 Pro was designed the way it was to allow easier BC with older PS4 games. MS didn't constrain themselves with that.The thought process behind your predictions is pretty thorough, so good job. But this part is a sticking point. Sony would not be "cutting losses" by sticking only to flawless chips. Quite the opposite, they would be paying far more per device. Chances are good they'd end up with an offering that was notably less powerful than Microsoft, and simultaneously costing them more. Against years of that on every console they make, the high one-time cost of designing an entirely new chip doesn't seem prohibitive.
The power gap had nothing to do with Kinect, that was the cause of the price gap. It was their RAM setup that caused them to be less powerful. But the size of APU in the Xbox One was roughly equal to PS4, so in an alternate universe where Microsoft went with better silicon design, they still wouldn't have been more powerful.
As for Pro, yes the One X is considerably more powerful. But I believe it was Phil Spencer himself who said that if they'd launched in 2016, they would've been at the same level. The power gap is due to a strategic positioning choice by Sony; the hardware was as good as it could be for a console price.
He didn't find it, this has been posted previously (maybe last OT?). At the time, there was discussion about the exact topic of the talk. Turn10 mention realtime RT, but also light probes for baking. It's not entirely clear if they mean RT will be in their game at runtime, or if they're going to talk about how to position probes to best capture RT effects, before then baking them into your runtime visuals.
No, nextgen--even at 60fps--will look much better than Deep Down. Some of the volumetric effects might be the same, but geometry, textures, materials, and IQ will be far improved.
Also, the playable version of Deep Down, though it didn't look quite this good, already ran at 60fps.
Incorrect. Here's two Navi products with game clock above 1.7 GHz:
As for 2 GHz+, there are at least claims that this is achievable on many Navi cards using user-created tools. Certainly people have run that way, for more than "a few seconds", using only air cooling. Sustainability and power draw are issues with this setting, of course. But the N7P node revision could conceivably address some of those, as could something akin to the "Hovis Method".
Even your calm retelling of this story itself overstates the "surprise" factor of the higher RAM densities. Hynix had them a year and half before PS4 launched. And I recall that their CEO later said they'd been talking closely with Sony.
Yeah if one isn't a fan of those games Xbox isn't for them.
Unless UI and services is more important.
Eh, that wouldn't be BC to me. That'd just be ports. If we were going to define it that way, then the PS4 already has PS2 BC, and the PS3 never lost it.
Ideally, they put an emulator on the PS5 so you don't even need to do a download to play, unlike the Xbone.
Re-read what he quoted. It is entirely clear they are indeed discussing real time, in-game RT.
Why would insiders need to all be wrong in order for the github info to be true? That isn't even close to true.
Unpatched Xbox One games run with full GPU and CPU clock on the One X however the GPU is limited to 2 Shader Engines of the available 4 SEs and to 8 GB of RAM of the available 12 GB. This has to do with that the old SDK was only supporting that kind of hardware for the game OS (8 core CPU, 2 SE GPU and 8 GB RAM). In result this means unpatched games run with a 3TF of computational performance on the One X.As far as I know, the One X doesn't limit the GPU for non-enhanced titles like the PS4 Pro does. The PS4 Pro quite literally shuts half of the GPU down for non-enhanced titles. And boost mode simply increases the clock speed of the 1/2 of the Pro's GPU from 800MHz to 911MHz. So you basically get a raw 14% frame rate improvement on non-enhanced PS4 titles on the Pro.
But on the X, Oddworld saw an 80% frame rate improvement, which is well beyond the clock speed improvement.
Microsoft is allowing games to use the whole GPU for non-enhanced titles.
If I had to guess why Sony does not, it might be an API limitation. It might be something they'll have a hard time working around for PS4 titles on the PS5.
Microsoft Xbox One X review
One year on from the release of the PlayStation 4 Pro, the fortunes of Sony's 'supercharged' console have varied. While…
"It's games with unlocked frame-rates that allow us to see just what this machine can do, though. Hitman, predictably, doesn't have its Xbox One X patch out at the time of testing, but in its standard form, you can run it with an unlocked frame-rate, where we saw up to an 80 per cent increase in performance. Oddworld New 'n' Tasty is a rare title to offer both a 30fps lock and unlocked frame-rate support. It's not quite locking to 60fps, but the largest delta between base and X performance is a creditable 70 per cent. Another cool test to try - the original on-disc code for Assassin's Creed Unity also has an unlocked frame-rate. On Xbox One X, the early stages of the game hit 50-60fps, temporarily transforming the game."
PS4 Pro boost mode: a game-changer for unpatched titles?
UPDATE 14/2/17 3:30pm: Rounding off our analysis of PS4 Pro's upcoming boost mode, we take a look at a title that clear…
Games that are developed with the SDK that introduced Xbox One X support run without the above described limitations even they don't make use of any of the new capabilities.
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They've asserted both are very powerful and very close to one another. So, I suppose it depends on whether you think 9.2TF and 12TF is "very close". Of course, TFs aren't the only measurement of overall power, but most here seem to laugh at the idea of any other piece of tech in the equation making a notable difference so... 🤷♂️
I think it wasn't about making it easier, merely possible. As I understand it, Sony has traditionally offered much lower level hardware access to devs than Microsoft has. That's great for devs, but it also makes BC a lot more difficult.
But for all we know the RT hardware is also not being accounted for in the 9.2 TF figure. I think it likely is being accounted for with the 12 TF figure. Dedicated RT hardware can make a potentially huge difference in terms of actual real world next gen performance so that imho could very plausibly be what knits things together.
Imagine a game using RT. Both consoles then can be on roughly equal footing. If the game really leans in hard on RT, maybe PS5 has the edge. If not, XSX might have the edge. MS might prefer this landscape as it might allow a lot of games to perform better on their machine more generically, as such they might legitimately have a claim to make about being most powerful. At the same time, maybe Klee was hearing from his dev source about a game that leans on RT pretty heavily, hence maybe for that game PS5 was performing better.
Or maybe the github data stems from testing the options available to Sony's initial 2019 PS5 design? They may heave wanted to see if they can stretch it to 2 GHz to see where things land instead of design a new APU for 2020. Maybe they abandoned that older design, hence the chatter from Klee and hence the talk of >10TF. Even then the github data is still correct, just not indicating launch PS5 info. Seems to me that lots of people here struggle to reconcile the github info with what Klee said, and since many people here desperately want PS5 to be the most powerful their confirmation bias kicks in and they over emphasis the credibility of his info, especially against the backdrop of AMD's own test data. I'd rather take the info from MS's insiders with unimpeachable, long standing and accurate track records telling us MS is confidently aiming at winning the power contest.
Either way, there are still a variety of ways we can combine things to line up with stuff we know without tossing the github info. Anyone 'doubting' that data's validity is delusional, but the context to couch it in is up for debate.
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