About 8.9 TF. Which would be around 12 Vega TF. Doesn't mean a whole lot though because we don't know much about Navi and comparing Nvidia and amd in regards to TF isn't very helpful.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE
- Thread starter Phoenix Splash
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About 8.9 TF. Which would be around 12 Vega TF. Doesn't mean a whole lot though because we don't know much about Navi and comparing Nvidia and amd in regards to TF isn't very helpful.
Did he ever promise that Microsoft was going to bring VR at the reveal or did he say that the next step change must be capable of delivering high fidelity VR?
So, im I still correct that going from what we know, the performance delta between the PS5 and Xbox Anaconda will probably be smaller than the delta between PS4 and X1?
If that is true, and Sony is using Navi 10 lite, maybe Ananconda will be using a true RDNA chip.
Or maybe the will both use the same, don't want to add to the conosle war in here.
Or maybe Ana will be using Vega because true Navi is coming in 2020.
No way there's going to be 3 skus! We've only heard about two and it's going to be a streaming box and a premium box.
Phil's a liar liar with his pants on fire. He cant keep getting away with it!
Navi is gddr6. I thought the HBM rumor would've been smashed when that came out.
We can try!
We have two unknown variables unfortunately. Clocks and CU count. For reference, I'll be using Strange Brigade benchmarks from here.
The knowns are:
RTX 2070 + 10% performance in Strange Brigade at 4K. This puts it within a few % of Vega 64, so let's call them equal for simplicity's sake.
Architecture gain of 1.25x per clock based on a suite of 30 benchmarks at 4K. This is a good comparison because it's more likely to stress any memory bandwidth disparities.
Perf/Watt gain of 1.5x over GCN at 14nm. I'll assume this is Vega 64 and immediately discard the metric. Why? Because we already know Vega 20 enjoys a 1.25x perf/Watt boost over Vega 64, so this is AMD admitting Navi is running at some clock where there are no additional perf/Watt advantages.
I think we should assume a minimum of 40 CUs based on the various leaks, and no more than 52 based on AdoredTV's numbers.
Vega 64 has a 1250MHz base clock and 1550MHz boost. To draw equal, Navi must make up any CU deficiencies not overcome with the 1.25X factor by clocks. This boosts 40CUs to an effective 50, meaning a 64/50 ratio boost to clocks. 1,600MHz base clock. 1984MHz boost clock. These don't seem totally far fetched given AMD says Navi clocks better, and Nvidia designs can clock that high.
44CUs: 1450MHz base, 1800MHz boost.
48CUs: 1333MHz base, 1650MHz boost.
52CUs: 1250MHz base, 1550MHz boost. (No change)
What's also interesting in my mind is CU sizing. If CUs have grown a lot, it really speaks to a lot of architecture rework. Vega 20 fits 64 CUs and a 4096 bit HBM2 controller in 332mm^2. I think it has more negative die area than strictly needed, and my personal belief is because this could have been a hurried refresh as a pipe cleaner, as well as current and power density meant it couldn't be shrunk further due to IR loss and heat density concerns. Navi is sporting a 255mm^2 die.
Navi has a 256-bit GDDR6 interface, and we know per 128 bits, it's 1.5-1.75x larger than a 1024 bit HBM2 interface. Let's assume Navi's 256 bit and Vega 20's 4096-bit are roughly equal, rather than GDDR6 being 20-25% smaller. I do this because I assume Navi will have less negative die area.
That means the rest of the area should be roughly equal, and so we can do an approximate CU sizing.
40 CUs: Navi CUs are 23% larger than Vega 20.
44 CUs: 12%
48 CUs: 2%
52 CUs: -5%
In any event, 255mm^2 is a good sign for consoles being able to include a full Navi 10 die along with 70mm^2 Zen 2 design, with some spare room for glue logic and misc. IO. If that leaked dev kit PS5 rumor is true (312mm^2), we're clearly dealing with a cut down Navi 10 (or a LITE version with smaller CUs?)
Which outcome is better for consoles? I would argue the smaller CU is actually better for consoles, because it makes the clock situation a lot more favorable. I think the 52CU scenario is infeasible because there's no way AMD would market a GPU with clocks that low and make the statements they did. I think we are likely looking at 44CUs for Navi based on it giving us a 1800MHz boost, which lines up perfectly with Radeon 7, and gives up the 0% perf/Watt advantage of Navi over Vega 20 that we expect. Of course, 40CUs is the best case if you believe the Gonzalo leak, because it tells us that console GPU clocks are actually 10% under desktop GPU boost clocks.
RX 580 clocks are 1257MHz/1340MHz, which means Xbox One X comes within 7% of desktop base clocks and 13% of boost clocks, and so I think Gonzalo clocks are completely believable for a 40CU Navi with ~2000MHz boost clock. They are far-fetched for anything beyond 44CUs.
And drum roll, teraflop time!
Given the clocks are scaled based on CU count, all above configurations have the same metrics. 8.2TF bass, 10.1TF boost. This puts us right in the TF band we expect for consoles (if a bit on the low side). I suspect the RX 5700 is not the top end Navi SKU though (I would expect an 8 or 9 in the name), and there's probably a full die version with 4-8 more CUs enabled, meaning all the above calculations are going to move up. Given consoles will most likely disable CUs for yield, this may absolutely still be a comparable situation. Conclusion, I remain team 10TF, but they punch like 12.5TF.
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That doesn't exclude Sony building an HBM memory controller which they have to do anyway since they'll almost certainly go for a UMA setup.
That has nothing to do with anything. Sony can use whatever RAM works best for them.
It's a good analogy for how different architectures with the same TF number perform differently but not really in the Anaconda/Lockheart case. I mean, I'm not a car guy so I'm not sure about it but if you have the same exact cars but you've doubled just the HP for one of them, wouldn't it be 2X more powerful?
your words are not the source. i need a link to the material. does that not make sense? like i said, should be easy for you since you remember it vividly.
I'd say this fits the bill?
It's a bit annoying when someone screams "Source" but can't do a google search.
See! Just that easy. Thank you both. :)
Saw this in the Navi announcement thread.
It looks like Navi is some sort of hybrid of GCN and AMD's next gen arch.
It looks like Navi is some sort of hybrid of GCN and AMD's next gen arch.
Just give the Windows Mixed Reality headset an Xbox Scarlett support.
Boom done.
Next Gen Xbox has VR.
AR too!
Boom done.
Next Gen Xbox has VR.
AR too!
But how about doing some google research on your own if you asked for "source"? It's not that hard, really
That's stretching the analogy quite a bit, there :D if you double the power, it will be, theoretically, twice as "powerful" - I mean, yeah - but it won't be twice as fast.
One thing that bothers me about the idea that GPU loads scale linearly-ish, so you just quarter the res and you're good, is that the linear scaling holds true when scaling UP, because you're mostly taking effects that scale with resolution and scaling them up. That's not necessarily true for loads scaling down. It is if the thing is designed with scaling down in mind, but if you're designing something that does a lot of res-independent stuff (voxelized lighting pipelines, for instance), that isn't scaling down as neatly as you'd imagine.
You mentioned Horizon and its use of compute, but you have to keep in mind that was a game that was very much designed with the low tier GPU in mind and scaled up; they'd only dedicate as much compute to that as they knew they'd have after doing everything that actually scales with res, likely.
because i don't really care and wanted the poster to back up his claim of "liar" instead of taking his word for it, twice.
I see. But you care when Phil Spencer is called out
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I wonder if this is because the full RDNA GPUs are not ready yet and current Navi is a stopgap... or are we seeing the "Navi was created for Sony" rumors in full effect here.. or maybe it's both. It kinda would make sense if Sony asked for this to make full PS4 BC much a much simpler endeavor...
I don't really like that car metaphor because I just don't know enough about cars :)
Games had always used compute for things that aren't pixel-based and for years these things had been using a very small margin of the GPU, Horizon was just one example that came to mind. Users keep bringing up Voxel based GI so that can be another great example. Crytek claims that SVOGI only take 5ms on the good old XBO GPU - "The performance depends on which GI settings are used. Usually on Xbox One it takes 4-5 ms of GPU time" so that's another example which is very relevant to next gen. I see no reason why next gen will be any different. I don't see developers suddenly dedicating 20ms of frame time just to do a single effect or physics.
What's exciting about next gen is that the GPU's small margin that is used for things like physics will be around +1TF while this gen it's closer to 0.2TF so just like the total GPU power gets a big bump, the magine for cool stuff like that bumps up too.
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GDDR6 works best for them, because it doesn't cost a bazillion dollars :P
I'll quote myself from a few weeks ago:
You're not adding value with this comment. It makes you seem like a system warrior.
It could be a hybrid because AMD is transitioning to a compute focused product in conjunction with a gaming focused one. GCN will live on, but Navi needs to have compute capabilities to have Instinct iterations in the meantime.
Compared to DDR4 it does. 😉
And remember, the rumour did go into exhaustive and well-researched detail on why the HBM2 would be both an improvement (due to the bandwidth issues with a single GDDR pool) and cheaper than expected (INFO_MS negating the need for an interposer and pushing supposedly substandard chips beyond their limits).
Almost certainly, Ana will be using NextGen not vega, or at least a hybrid Navi-NextGen
Yeah I know, no value at all just like defending everything from Ms/Sony/Nintendo etc...
As a parent it comes natural to correct foolish behavior. I want my little children to grow up right. 😂
It's a waste of time. Just play Slay the Spire like I am doing now.
i think you missed the post that was a reply to.
c'mon
lol?
You don't need 4-6 TF to stream
Defeats the entire point of a streaming box.
$99/$299/$499...
Streaming box is low cost to bring in customers. this way they are hitting all categories.
Interesting thought. I wonder how different these 'Next-gen' GPUs will end up looking from the current Navi products, architecture wise. Exciting stuff upcoming out of AMD in the coming years.
Great write up. I am still in the 11TF camp.... though I can't shake this feeling that the PS5 will be 10TF. It just sounds right somehow, but I expect ana to be 11TF though.
The onus of proof always falls to the person making the claims.
This was my first thought. Or at least, if this is true, it would benefit compatibility on PS5.
So there's a 1080p streaming box, a 1080p "casual" box, and a 4k "hardcore" box? And here I was thinking pulling 2 SKUs off would be a tough one for MS.
I don't think that there is a streaming SKU. There are two new xbox SKUs and an xcloud app. If you don't have anything connected to your TV then they will probably sell something similar to chrome-cast, a streaming stick.
Who said the streams are bound to 1080p?
Resolution isn't the differentiator, it's the streaming. Streaming vs native. Also saying casual and hardcore makes no sense. Games are going to look the same. It's the TV that changes. You can be a hardcore gamer and not have a 4K set. I dunno why people try to classify how dedicated someone is to playing games by basing it off the amount of money they spend.
Casual audiences will be split between stream and lockhart. Hardcore audiences will be split between all 3, depending on their needs.
I would say aligning with set tops is better, but it's true streaming would be more flexible in the delivery options. They'll probably have both.
Especially if someone doesn't care, right. Why ask for source then. Asking for source or not, it's good do some research on your own, just in case.
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I'm personally expecting an Apple TV, Roku, smart TV app for all platforms honestly, MS is on every platform and App Store right now with their products, should be easy for them to deploy that app to as many services as possible, as long as the can have controller support of course! Unless they release some kind of Wi-Fi controller like Stadia.
I really want MS to redesign the XBOX controller for quality. I've had more controllers break this gen than any other. Sony just needs to up the battery life and make their thump stick quality better.
You're overthinking it. Change casual to mainstream, hardcore because vast majority of sales will go to the mainstream box. That's all I meant.
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