Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

[disco_potato]

Question about ps4 that popped into my head when discussing this fancy new storage solution and sony seemingly going balls out with it.

When they designed the ps4 and pro, even though they used SATA as connection to hdd and bd, all was in the end routed through the USB bus. With the base ps4 using sata2 and PRO using sata3, hence the increase in performance with pro. Now, why would sony go that route(my guess cost savings though with Cerny being involved, who knows) with ps4 yet with ps5 we're even hearing pcie4 and nvme.

 

[androvsky]

The HMB2 + DDR4 leak is pretty plausible until you - again - go and ask yourself, who would realistically be in a position to know this stuff? Not just about the PS5 but also about a PS4 slim. Unlike most other leaks I believe there are indeed people in the industry who know about this stuff but they would have to work for AMD or Sony's hardware division, that's not a likely place for the first real leak to emerge.

For PS4 and PS4 Pro internal documents provivided for developers were leaked and those wouldn't contain mentions of a "great deal on bad HMB2 yields" and they would not contain plans for a PS4 Slim which is of no interest to developers whatsoever. What they would contain is a solution to one of the biggest bottlenecks of the current gen consoles which is memory bandwitdh, so that part checks out and the solution is pretty believable, so kudos to whoever made that one up.

Memory bandwidth is still a huge question mark for PS5 and the next gen Xbox, I was speculatiing about severly downclocking of the CPU part and split memory pools but thats just part of my shtick of always going with the worst possible outcome so I can be surprised by what they are actually cooking up.

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I figured it was clear the leaker was supposedly from whoever was supplying the HBM memory with the great deal, the username even included "samsung" written backwards. Also, the PS4 Slim part included "fabbed on samsung 7nm EUV".

I'm not saying it makes it true, but it answers the question of who would know everything in the leak. Note the the leak doesn't include any rumors on raytracing, third-party launch exclusives, PSVR fan fiction, or anything like that. It's just stuff Samsung would be making. Knowing the price of the PS4 slim is questionable though.

 

[chris 1515]

Do you have an:
1) Any idea if that Sony slide is actually real considering wccftech was the one to leak it, that site doesn't have the best track record. Any links to the original presentation?
2) If it is real, a link to the reason why CPU bandwidth cuts total bandwidth disproportionately?
3) A real estimate of power consumption of 8GB of HBM2 + 16GB of DDR4 VS 24GB of GDDR6?


When your game needs 6GB of video memory and 14GB of system memory it's cool, when your game needs 14GB of video memory and 6GB of system memory it's hard work. That is one of the reasons 360 was so much easier to develop for than PS3.

But I'll be honest, it's gonna be 2020 and memory pools are so large now that it doesn't matter as much as it did 10 years ago. In 2010 developers were fighting over every free memory block just to get the game running but today it's not the case anymore. Some games will be limited by that and developers will have to get creative around it but it won't be a big issue. But still, you are introducing a new problem for no reason. If we were talking about a GDDR6 and DDR4 combo then it would have made sense, the cheap price could help them get a huge memory pool. 12GB of GDDR6 + 24GB of DDR4 cost the same as 24GB of GDDR6 so the total memory pool could have grown to unbelievable size of 32GB. But there are memory controller limits to that (a 384-bit GPU controller and a 384-bit CPU controller which sounds insane) so it won't happen.

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1) No but Sony never told the document is false
2) Memory contention the CPU and GPU trying to access the same memory...
3) We have an estimate of 16 Gb of HBM2 and controller it is 20 watts and 10 watts for the controller. Divide 16 by 8 this is 2 divide 20 by 2 10 watts for 8 Gb HBM2 memory, this is 20 watts for the controller and HBM2 memory and info_Ms is supposed to cut on this but better to use worst case. 16 Gb of DDR4-2800 is 6.09 watts if you do the ratio 3200/2800*6.09 = 6.96 but I will be generous and said it doesn't scale well and give 10 watts and arbitrarily give 10 watts like HBM 2 for the controller. A total of 40 watts.

12 GB of GDDR5 is 60 to 75 watts on a 384bits bus from buildzoid estimation the guy working for ASUS, from JEDEC standard GDDR6 consumption is 10% less than GDDR5. 12 Gb of GDDR6 is between 54 and 67,5 watts not 24 Gb of GDDR6, it is more than this for sure I am sure of myself than 24Gb of GDDR6 consume more power than the combo of the rumor. I will wait maybe we will have more test of GDDR6 power consumption.

http://vrworld.com/2017/04/25/amd-next-generation-gpu-gddr6-memory/

I figured it was clear the leaker was supposedly from whoever was supplying the HBM memory with the great deal, the username even included "samsung" written backwards. Also, the PS4 Slim part included "fabbed on samsung 7nm EUV".

I'm not saying it makes it true, but it answers the question of who would know everything in the leak. Note the the leak doesn't include any rumors on raytracing, third-party launch exclusives, PSVR fan fiction, or anything like that. It's just stuff Samsung would be making. Knowing the price of the PS4 slim is questionable though.

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It is maybe a reasonable guess. I think PS4 will be 199 dollars/euros because it is the discounted price during Black Friday and during the discount period in Europe.

EDIT:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-TITAN-RTX-Desktop-GPU-Review.400241.0.html

Moreover, NVIDIA has equipped the TITAN RTX with 24 GB GDDR6 VRAM, which is more than double what the RTX 2080 Ti has. This extra performance also coincides with additional 30-W power consumption that brings the TITAN RTX up to 280 W

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It is not exactly what I search(11 Gb against 24 not 12 against 24 and bus 352 bits against 384 bits) but I will be generous and said it is 20 watts more for 12 Gb of GDDR6 maybe between 74 and 97,5 watts for 24 Gb of GDDR6 on a bus 384 bits with the memory controller...

 

[chris 1515]

double post

 

[BradGrenz]

What's the beneficiary of using HBM2+DDR4 over GDDR6? is that a big deal?

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Ideally, you get high bandwidth where you need it, more capacity than practical with GDDR6, lower power usage overall, and greater potential for cost reduction in the future. As rumored HBM + DDR4 may have been seen as the only cost effective way to get more than 16GB of RAM while still offering sufficient bandwidth for the GPU.

Fun to speculate about HBM2 in a console, but I agree that this rumored implementation ultimately seems low probability, and likely inferior to 24GB of GDDR6, or even 20GB of GDDR6 on a 320 bit bus.

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Personally, I'm not sold on any of the next gen systems being built around a GDDR4 memory bus wider than 256 bit. What make sense in a priced to profit premium SKU like the One X is not necessarily something you want to chain yourself to for an entire generation. The HBM rumor would be pretty easily superior to a 16GB GDDR6 option, for example.

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

Can someone give me the bandwidth difference between 24gb gddr6 on 384bit bus vs 8gb HBM2 + 16ddr4?

 

[disco_potato]

Is the HBM discussion based on prediction that NAVI will use it, which would be surprising, or is there another reason for it?

 

[chris 1515]

Can someone give me the bandwidth difference between 24gb gddr6 on 384bit bus vs 8gb HBM2 1.6 + 16ddr4?

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In theory 134 Gb/s even if the CPU use 102.4 Gb/s the 24Gb GDDR6 will be better but only by 32 Gb/s... if it use 51Gb/s it will be a better 83 Gb/s.

 

[Albert Penello]

Both the 360 and PS3 had 3.2Ghz Processors.

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CPU, agree. But the GPU was 500mhz. I should have been more specific, because it's the 1.8ghz GPU that's being debated as it relates to TFLOPS...

 

[Lagspike_exe]

What is the highest clock speed a console has ever run? Because unless people think the form factor of a console will change dramatically, I think there is a bit of wishful thinking on these clock speeds when you take into consideration a thin, small console form factor.

It's not always a question of what the chip is capable of - sometimes it's a question of what can be run at nearly 100% for 5 years with very low defect rates.

Not saying it's impossible - but seems very unlikely.

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You can't really look at it like that. Chip speeds vary greatly between whether they're CPU or GPU, architectures and of course nodes. Drawing conclusion from past clocks doesn't really say anything.
But I agree with you that aside from thermal considerations, the reliability is also of concern, as MS found out with X360.

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

In theory 134 Gb/s even if the CPU use 102.4 Gb/s the 24Gb GDDR6 will be better but only by 32 Gb/s... if it use 51Gb/s it will be a better 83 Gb/s.

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from what I learned over the years following the console market ..ram (quantity and usable by gpu) and bandwidth are never enough for a good and future proof machine . I know that you trust that a super fast customized SSD can alleviate the needed of a big pool of fast memory ..but think you betting on multiple things to to work as on paper instead to have a system that would work just out of the gate as expected (surely consuming more W)
- The ssd have to compensate the low quantity of fast memory
- the less capable bandwidth compared to the gddr6 combination also on the baddest situation
-the supervisor who make see the different pools (with totally different speed) to the devs have to work perfectly as on paper .....always.

I was a lover of the 360 memory setup and initially I was thinking that the of Xbox setup was a smart cost saving setup ....until devs start to work with it and we started to see problems. It the risk worth? I would say yes if the ps5 is supposed to gain W to spend on the gpu but this doesn't seem the case seen that we all expect both console to be in the range of 10% + or - performance difference ......so what ?:cost saving? ....ok but I'm not Ms or Sony I don't care a lots about that.
Probably hbm is good in some years when we will get the refresh ..as right now for me is not worth..maybe I'm wrong

 

[formasymphonic]

Is the HBM discussion based on prediction that NAVI will use it, which would be surprising, or is there another reason for it?

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- People are expecting GDDR6 for desktop variants for Navi
- For console Navi, a few of the older rumours imply that PS5 will go with a HBM+DDR4 combo for a variety of reasons.
some of the supposed benefits are in heat & power, which combined with other rumours (like Gonzalo high mhz gpu, and AdoredTV's Navi has possible high TDP issues, one of the 4chan rumours that says PS5 has higher TF than Anaconda) paint an overall picture of plausibility.

None of this is fact of course, but things are starting to fit together like puzzle pieces and different kinds of plausible speculation are arising. I'll take this over the circular TF counts any day.

 

[Jraphics Horse]

Can the SSD help with clipping/loading texture in real-time ? I thought it was just the vRAM that manage textures.

For example GTA5, lot of clipping, but not sure if you put it in a SSD it will help.

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Not sure what you mean by clipping but it can have a huge effect on streaming. It takes the best part of a minute to fill all the RAM with new uncompressed data from hard disk, with SSD it could be a couple of seconds.

 

[AegonSnake]

One of the many PS5 dev kit leaks said 733 GB/s so who knows... maybe.

I have said multiple times that if the HBM rumor is true, then it's most likely a placeholder until the cheaper and faster HBM3 is available next year. We'll see I guess.

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yep. It was this one.

Someone here found a patent for stacking two HBM2 chips to get 733gb/s total bandwidth.

I thought it was crazy how it lined up with this rumor. The 1850mhz clockspeeds matches the gonzolo leak too.

 

[Deleted member 49804]

Someone else concerned about all the X570 motherboards with chipset coolers?
I just hope it is not any indication of the IO part on nex gen consoles.

 

[chris 1515]

from what I learned over the years following the console market ..ram (quantity and usable by gpu) and bandwidth are never enough for a good and future proof machine . I know that you trust that a super fast customized SSD can alleviate the needed of a big pool of fast memory ..but think you betting on multiple things to to work as on paper instead to have a system that would work just out of the gate as expected (surely consuming more W)
- The ssd have to compensate the low quantity of fast memory
- the less capable bandwidth compared to the gddr6 combination also on the baddest situation
-the supervisor who make see the different pools (with totally different speed) to the devs have to work perfectly as on paper .....always.

I was a lover of the 360 memory setup and initially I was thinking that the of Xbox setup was a smart cost saving setup ....until devs start to work with it and we started to see problems. It the risk worth? I would say yes if the ps5 is supposed to gain W to spend on the gpu but this doesn't seem the case seen that we all expect both console to be in the range of 10% + or - performance difference ......so what ?:cost saving? ....ok but I'm not Ms or Sony I don't care a lots about that.
Probably hbm is good in some years when we will get the refresh ..as right now for me is not worth..maybe I'm wrong

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HBCC is not new it is on Vega you even have some card with RAM + ssd with HBCC.

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

HBCC is not new it is on Vega you even have some card with RAM + ssd with HBCC.

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There are benchmarks with SSD+ram cards on videogames ? I'm really curious if you tell me the model I check myself

 

[anexanhume]

CPU, agree. But the GPU was 500mhz. I should have been more specific, because it's the 1.8ghz GPU that's being debated as it relates to TFLOPS...

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The only reason we're talking about 1.8GHz in here is because of the Gonzalo leak. Everyone was saying 1400/1500 tops before that.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I really don't think RAM is problem any more for devs .
Yes more it always better but we gotten to a point where even if we only have 16GB it should not be a big problem .
What going to be interesting is seeing games being build around fast SSD speeds.

 

[chris 1515]

There are benchmarks with SSD+ram cards on videogames ? I'm really curious if you tell me the model I check myself

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I will search because I don't remember the model but for HBCC

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3095-amd-vega-56-hbcc-gaming-benchmarks-on-vs-off?showall=1

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3095-amd-vega-56-hbcc-gaming-benchmarks-on-vs-off?showall=1

HBCC works well the problem it doesn't give great result because 8 Gb card is enough for current gen game on PC...

EDIT: You will not find benchmark it is a professional card the Radeon Pro SSG, this is not working with game...

https://www.amd.com/fr/products/professional-graphics/radeon-pro-ssg

 

[formasymphonic]

yep. It was this one.

Someone here found a patent for stacking two HBM2 chips to get 733gb/s total bandwidth.

I thought it was crazy how it lined up with this rumor. The 1850mhz clockspeeds matches the gonzolo leak too.

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Spoiler

Big PC towers.
Pretty loud. Fans seem to be running at Max all the time. Bug?
GPU dump has memory at 18432mb. bandwidth 733GB/s. core clock at 1850mhz.
CPU shows up as Zen 7. According to docs only the GPU on the SOC is being used in this iteration of the devkit.
64GB of system ram.
4TB SSD.

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

I will search because I don't remember the model but for HBCC

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3095-amd-vega-56-hbcc-gaming-benchmarks-on-vs-off?showall=1

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3095-amd-vega-56-hbcc-gaming-benchmarks-on-vs-off?showall=1

HBCC works well the problem it doesn't give great result because 8 Gb card is enough for current gen game on PC...

EDIT: You will not find benchmark it is a professional card the Radeon Pro SSG, this is not working with game...

https://www.amd.com/fr/products/professional-graphics/radeon-pro-ssg

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thanks
So the "customized SSD" could be basically and SSD soldered to the gpu as in the Radeon Pro SSG after all?

 

[chris 1515]

thanks
So the "customized SSD" could be basically and SSD soldered to the gpu as in the Radeon Pro SSG after all?

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Maybe no idea. Apple have custom SSD controller.

 

[itchi]

Microsoft has uploaded their GDC talk on Variable Rate Shading



This one seems to be about VRS too though labelled incorrectly

 

[formasymphonic]

Interestingly I just noticed that the "Details on the next-gen consoles and devkits, don't ask how I know" comment rumour on reddit got deleted. Unlike the others it wasn't from a throwaway account.

The question is, did it get taken down because it was bullshit, or was it because there was enough in the users account that could trace back to who they are?

 

[BradGrenz]

So the "customized SSD" could be basically and SSD soldered to the gpu as in the Radeon Pro SSG after all?

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Good lord, no. The SSD vidcards only make sense in certain professional settings where you may be working with 200GB data sets.

 

[statham]

Interestingly I just noticed that the "Details on the next-gen consoles and devkits, don't ask how I know" comment rumour on reddit got deleted. Unlike the others it wasn't from a throwaway account.

The question is, did it get taken down because it was bullshit, or was it because there was enough in the users account that could trace back to who they are?

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he would have deleted his account if he thought it could be traced back.
most likely tired of the 100s PMs hes gotten.

 

[RoboPlato]

Interestingly I just noticed that the "Details on the next-gen consoles and devkits, don't ask how I know" comment rumour on reddit got deleted. Unlike the others it wasn't from a throwaway account.

The question is, did it get taken down because it was bullshit, or was it because there was enough in the users account that could trace back to who they are?

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Which one was this?

 

['V']

Microsoft has uploaded their GDC talk on Variable Rate Shading



This one seems to be about VRS too though labelled incorrectly

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Thanks for linking this.

 

[formasymphonic]

Which one was this?

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It was this one

"
Details on the next-gen consoles and devkits, don't ask how I know:

Phil really fought hard for the concept of a loss-leading Anaconda by positioning the device as a value add to the company as a whole. The silicon inside the next Xboxes will be dual-purposed for Azure compute in server blades.
Because of this they thought they had the power advantage over the PS5 since they were certain Sony will repeat the same strategy as the PS4.

Sony however is also going for a loss-leading platform. They saw the difference in reception between the pro and the 1X and is focused on not giving up much if any performance edge to their competition.
So both consoles will have similar bom (bill of manufacture). The chips in Anaconda unfortunately are hampered by the need to cater to Azure workloads, meaning that it'll have silicon devoted to FP64, and also machine learning, that is not utilizable by game engines currently.

This results in the PS5 devkits currently with a 20-30% perf advantage against Anaconda. MS is aware and might try to push the clocks, but there isn't much wiggle room as both companies are already pushing the limits of console tdp and heat. They might be content in w/e happening as they're partners with Sony now.

PS: Specs in OP are fake. Don't expect consoles to be north of 12 TF
"

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btw If we put something in an email tag does that still hide it from non-registered users?

n/m - quick test shows no

he would have deleted his account if he thought it could be traced back.
most likely tired of the 100s PMs hes gotten.

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heh, this wouldn't surprise me tbh

 

[Pheonix]

I really don't think RAM is problem any more for devs .
Yes more it always better but we gotten to a point where even if we only have 16GB it should not be a big problem .
What going to be interesting is seeing games being build around fast SSD speeds.

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Same here. I mean has anyone lokd at what wasposible with 5GB of RAMoncurrent gen consoles? I don't see nextgen consoles needing more than 16GB of Usable RAM. And maybe like 4GB of RAM for the OS. So a total of 20GB of RAM. 16GB of usable Ram is 3 times the RA of current gen. Which translates o the current size of game worlds but twice as dense or twice more variety speaking loosely.

Hell, the 4GB OS ram can even be LPDDR4 which will need a much smaller mem controller taking up even less space in the chip and require significantly less power. Throw in 8GB of HBM2 RAM, 8GB of DDR4 Ram and 3/4GB of LPDDR4 RAM and call it a day.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I think the HBM2 patent seals the deal. Too much of a coincidence.

 

[thuway]

Reddit :

"
Details on the next-gen consoles and devkits, don't ask how I know:

Phil really fought hard for the concept of a loss-leading Anaconda by positioning the device as a value add to the company as a whole. The silicon inside the next Xboxes will be dual-purposed for Azure compute in server blades.
Because of this they thought they had the power advantage over the PS5 since they were certain Sony will repeat the same strategy as the PS4.

Sony however is also going for a loss-leading platform. They saw the difference in reception between the pro and the 1X and is focused on not giving up much if any performance edge to their competition.
So both consoles will have similar bom (bill of manufacture). The chips in Anaconda unfortunately are hampered by the need to cater to Azure workloads, meaning that it'll have silicon devoted to FP64, and also machine learning, that is not utilizable by game engines currently.

This results in the PS5 devkits currently with a 20-30% perf advantage against Anaconda. MS is aware and might try to push the clocks, but there isn't much wiggle room as both companies are already pushing the limits of console tdp and heat. They might be content in w/e happening as they're partners with Sony now.

PS: Specs in OP are fake. Don't expect consoles to be north of 12 TF
"

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HOLY SHIT IF REAL

 

[Deleted member 49132]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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Catchphrase of the thread...

Every time I visit this thread I'm left more disappointed by the lack of leaks/reputable info than the last...smh

 

[jesu]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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ELL OH ELL

 

[Detective]

Whenever I read a leak and there's sentences/words like how awesome X company is and how Y company is being screwed etc or this company is in angry mode/ monster mode etc it smell BS and fan made.

 

[Pheonix]

Whenever I read a leak and there's sentences/words like how awesome X company is and how Y company is being screwed etc or this company is in angry mode/ monster mode etc it smell BS and fan made.

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At this point, someone can come into this thread and drop the specs for both consoles line for line and no one will believe him.

Its the beauty of the rampant speculation on here now. The truth can literally be hiding in plain sight.

 

[Bradbatross]

I just know some of the posters in here are making these fake leaks on reddit/4chan and getting a good laugh out of it when they're posted on here lol.

 

[Bunkles]

So hard to tell if this narrative of surprise PS5 power has any merit or if it's all fanboy hopes and dreams. Seems like a lot of rumors hint towards PS5 having performance edge but it could just be BS building on top of BS.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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Not expecting anything north of 12 TF is disappointing if true (which it isn't)

 

[Pheonix]

So hard to tell if this narrative of surprise PS5 power has any merit or if it's all fanboy hopes and dreams. Seems like a lot of rumors hint towards PS5 having performance edge but it could just be BS building on top of BS.

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Well just do what I am doing.... I do not believe a single rumor. I just discuss them cause i find that fun. All I know is that the PS5 will have a zen CPU, an SSD and a GPU that is 8TF - 13TF.

And I know that whatever are in those consoles next gen games will look great. I've been gaming since the NES.... and not once has the next gen of consoles not looked great.

 

[Pheonix]

Not expecting anything north of 12 TF is disappointing if true (which it isn't)

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Doesn't that just mean no higher than 12TF?

 

[statham]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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Have you PM'd him yet?

 

[Dave.]

btw If we put something in an email tag does that still hide it from non-registered users?

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There is a way of doing that, but maybe it's disabled now. The early days of Resetera were filled with people using "quote to see content" as general spoilers, it was horrible lol!

 

[BitsandBytes]

Have you PM'd him yet?

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OK, I laughed. And on that note, bedtime!

 

[Tappin Brews]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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its not. ask yourself, who would know all of that? answer - NO ONE

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Doesn't that just mean no higher than 12TF?

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Yes but the way it's phrased almost makes it sound like it's lower than that, just came across as slightly negative.

If they said "around 12TF" that would have been more encouraging

 

[big_z]

HOLY SHIT IF REAL

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lol the creativity of the fanfiction popping up this time around is entertaining.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

At this point, someone can come into this thread and drop the specs for both consoles line for line and no one will believe him.

Its the beauty of the rampant speculation on here now. The truth can literally be hiding in plain sight.

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Yeah, I'm fairly sure we already know quite a bit but we'll have to look back and say, "Ah, so that one was fully/partially true!".

 

[Xeontech]

"Don't expect north of 12tf"

12.9 or bust brother