Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

[gremlinz1982]

Huh? Your examples undermine the point you're trying to make.

The Xbox sold less than 25% of its direct competitor while being significantly more powerful - but also launchong much later.

The 360 only managed to match the PS3's sales while essentially being roughly the same in realworld performance (PS3 on paper had more shading performance - so going by the flops numbers people are so obsessed with PS3 was more powerful), despite launching a year earlier and Sony's monumental fuck-up with the PS3.

The 360s successes had more to do with its ability to match PS3 on library, together with MS's first party juggernauts over the first half of the gen.

So the above examples aren't in any universe examples of more power helping sales success. You can't even justify from that an argument that power advantage made any difference at all.

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Launching one year earlier helped Microsoft, having a cheaper console, having third party games not skip the platform, having the best version of games for a majority of the generation all went hand in hand with their investment in first and second party.

One could argue that Microsoft would have done much better if not for RRoD and the amount of money they had to put in for extended warranties.

 

[jroc74]

Grant us eyes is a Bloodbornbe reference.

Also people need to chill already, the human eye can't see past 8tf, so next gen is safe.

NVME4.0+Zen CPU monster and at minimun 8TF; next gen will blow us away not just in the graphics department but we will see games that are impossible now.

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Ok, this got a good laugh out of me, thanks.

 

[Ozorov]

Do yoy think the devkits that went out last month use navi+Zen2 or do they use some older things?

 

[Deleted member 21]

FWIW, I've attempted to verify said user a long while ago because of this post and while I can vouch for them working in an industry related to visual effects, I have no idea about those sources or friends.

That being said: if you are speculating, then say that you are speculating. If you are trying to relay some kind of information and base it on what you have heard from your sources, then please get in contact with either ZhugeEX.

As for VFX_Veteran's post regarding the TFLOPS: considering he backed out, I'll look at it as speculation and not much more than that. In case this happens again, the staff will action it.

I hope this will clear things up

 

[Bradbatross]

I guess that's possible.

Regardless of all, I am saying, I am personally expecting between 10TF and 12TF. Those thermals man.... they are a bitch.


Very scary fun times.

Like nothing wrong with coming and saying, I heard from a friend in the industry that says it will be 9TF or hell 14TF. But if you expect anyone on Era to take that as anything more than just one's personal opinion dressed up as whatever, then at the very least provide proof of what you are saying. And what I don't understand is that mods have done that before, he doesn't have to give up his friends or whatever to validate his story to the forum.

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What would the proof be?

 

[Deleted member 12635]

None of those are saying they have sources afaik

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No one claimed they know dev kits /specs and state it as fact .this is next level .

Issue is we know VFX and his post history enough to call him out on his claim. And ofcourse he backed out immediately.

Anyways hopefully it doesn't become trend here but u shouldnt be cheering for people to post their thoughts as fact. They could say I simply "think" this is the next gen specs and that's more that fine

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If you feel this way about a member why he isn't on your ignore list? A lot of people posting here are on mine and I am glad I never see their posts ever!

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Hey Wonderment, you seem to have disappeared?

I think I speak for many on here when I say that I'm genuinely curious to understand what the forum rules are on posters claiming to have insider info.?

Some clarification would be helpful to put this issue to bed.

Edit:

Nibel resolved it. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

So you say everyone who have connections/sources/friends in the industry and get info from there should be vetted by a mod here because he has info others don't have?

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isn't that how the insiders thing work? Helped at GAF back then. If someone wants to speculate then go ahead but when he states that he has sources that told him info then they should get vetted.

It's different from posting from pastebins and 4chan. Someone shouldn't say that they are in the know when they clearly dont.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

FWIW, I've attempted to verify said user a long while ago because of this post and while I can vouch for them working in an industry related to visual effects, I have no idea about those sources or friends.

That being said: if you are speculating, then say that you are speculating. If you are trying to relay some kind of information and base it on what you have heard from your sources, then please get in contact with either ZhugeEX.

As for VFX_Veteran's post regarding the TFLOPS: considering he backed out, I'll look at it as speculation and not much more than that. In case this happens again, the staff will action it.

I hope this will clear things up

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This is very reassuring.

Thanks Nibel.

 

[Hey Please]

Do yoy think the devkits that went out last month use navi+Zen2 or do they use some older things?

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I was not even aware of that dev kits went out last month. Given these may very well be not the final dev kits, there is a good chance that older components (esp. GPU) are being used to approximate potential capabilities of the retail units. It is logical to expect Navi GPU be part of final dev kits.

FWIW, I've attempted to verify said user a long while ago because of this post and while I can vouch for them working in an industry related to visual effects, I have no idea about those sources or friends.

That being said: if you are speculating, then say that you are speculating. If you are trying to relay some kind of information and base it on what you have heard from your sources, then please get in contact with either ZhugeEX.

As for VFX_Veteran's post regarding the TFLOPS: considering he backed out, I'll look at it as speculation and not much more than that. In case this happens again, the staff will action it.

I hope this will clear things up

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Thank you.

 

[Ozorov]

I was not even aware of that dev kits went out last month. Given these may very well be not the final dev kits, there is a good chance that older components (esp. GPU) are being used to approximate potential capabilities of the retail units. It is logical to expect Navi GPU be part of final dev kits.



Thank you.

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I think MS dev kit went out last month - dont remember the name of it. Was something like Duran. PS5 dev kits is out there also IIRC

 

[Deleted member 12635]

isn't that how the insiders thing work? Helped at GAF back then. If someone wants to speculate then go ahead but when he states that he has sources that told him info then they should get vetted.

It's different from posting from pastebins and 4chan. Someone shouldn't say that they are in the know when they clearly dont.

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I agree the wording in one of those comments could have been better but that someone has friends or connections into the industry doesn't make him an insider. The whole insider thing is overblown by some anyway.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

I agree the wording in one of those comments could have been better but that someone has friends or connections into the industry doesn't make him an insider. The whole insider thing is overblown by some anyway.

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Yeah, I just can't help but roll my eyes when he posts. You're right that there's a use for the ignore button though.

 

[Gamer17]

FWIW, I've attempted to verify said user a long while ago because of this post and while I can vouch for them working in an industry related to visual effects, I have no idea about those sources or friends.

That being said: if you are speculating, then say that you are speculating. If you are trying to relay some kind of information and base it on what you have heard from your sources, then please get in contact with either ZhugeEX.

As for VFX_Veteran's post regarding the TFLOPS: considering he backed out, I'll look at it as speculation and not much more than that. In case this happens again, the staff will action it.

I hope this will clear things up

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Great .thank you very much

 

[FSavage]

Launching one year earlier helped Microsoft, having a cheaper console, having third party games not skip the platform, having the best version of games for a majority of the generation all went hand in hand with their investment in first and second party.

One could argue that Microsoft would have done much better if not for RRoD and the amount of money they had to put in for extended warranties.

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One could also argue that 360 numbers wouldn't be as high if it weren't for RRoD... the number of people I saw buy multiple 360s because of RRoD during my college years was pretty damn high. Don't underestimate people's impatience after getting a warrantied 360 and having it break again soon after lol...

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Yeah, I just can't help but roll my eyes when he posts. You're right that there's a use for the ignore button though.

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If you really have this perception I would advise exactly that. Its a life (blood pressure) and most important a time saver ;)

 

[Lagspike_exe]

So, what's new in the last few days? Are we 8/10/12/14 TFLOPS now?

 

[ppn7]

ok guys what is the max TDP that MS/Sony could put on their console ? 200W?
The CPU could use 25 to 35w ? So maybe 150W max for the GPU part ?

My question is about HBM2 and GDDR6 consumption, it seems that HBM2 is less consuming that GDDR6 but how much ?

 

[Cyborg]

Colbert You are acting a bit arrogant now. Doesnt suit you!

It wasnt intended BS from my side but he is just claiming to have concrete info and posting it without any proof. All other leaks were not born here on Era.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Launching one year earlier helped Microsoft, having a cheaper console, having third party games not skip the platform, having the best version of games for a majority of the generation all went hand in hand with their investment in first and second party.

One could argue that Microsoft would have done much better if not for RRoD and the amount of money they had to put in for extended warranties.

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Agreed, but I don't think any of that really justifies the position that a console power advantage meaningfully impacts its success.

I'd even go so far as to argue that the XB1's power disadvantage has made less of a difference this gen to the platforms' woes than the launch debacle and the severe lack of first party hit games in comparison with the competition.

 

[gremlinz1982]

One could also argue that 360 numbers wouldn't be as high if it weren't for RRoD... the number of people I saw buy multiple 360s because of RRoD during my college years was pretty damn high. Don't underestimate people's impatience after getting a warrantied 360 and having it break again soon after lol...

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Same thing happens every generation. I have seen multiple friends with a PS2 console because the original unit broke, or the PS1/3. This is the one console generation that things have held up massively well in hardware terms.

And I was one of those people that got another console, I would not imagine that we (people that bought multiple consoles) ran into many millions.

 

[Pheonix]

FWIW, I've attempted to verify said user a long while ago because of this post and while I can vouch for them working in an industry related to visual effects, I have no idea about those sources or friends.

That being said: if you are speculating, then say that you are speculating. If you are trying to relay some kind of information and base it on what you have heard from your sources, then please get in contact with either ZhugeEX.

As for VFX_Veteran's post regarding the TFLOPS: considering he backed out, I'll look at it as speculation and not much more than that. In case this happens again, the staff will action it.

I hope this will clear things up

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Thank you......

 

[Themaddestgamer]

VFX is a respected poster. I personally dont discount his posts or take them as gospel. He is obviously very knowledgeable. Way more than myself.

If it is 9 than so be it. If it is more than great. I fully trust Sony, they know what they are doing and what they want to accomplish.

The PRO has blown me away on my 4K HDR set and its 4.2. Most gamers here are playing at 1.8TF and a jaguar. Imagine what first party output will look like with 9 or more and zen2 plus whatever secret sauce Lisa refers to.

There is almost nothing that can kill my excitement for next gen. A TF number isnt going to.

Put the hardware in the hands of GG, ND, SM, Dice, and whoever and prepare to be amazed.

 

[ClarkusDarkus]

The CPU/SSD is where it's at next gen anyway, 8TF is absolutely fine for devs and for us with 4K sets/VR, Any more is just bonus.

 

[Detective]

I am speculating 14-15 TF
That's what sources from the other side have told me. :D

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Colbert You are acting a bit arrogant now. Doesnt suit you!

It wasnt intended BS from my side but he is just claiming to have concrete info and posting it without any proof. All other leaks were not born here on Era.

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Sorry for coming across arrogant. Could the person in question could select a better wording? Sure. But just because somebody has info from friends in the industry doesn't makes him an insider imo. My issue is purely about to vet people because of their private circle. I just don't like the idea of that.

 

[Themaddestgamer]

The CPU/SSD is where it's at next gen anyway, 8TF is absolutely fine for devs and for us with 4K sets/VR, Any more is just bonus.

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Yep i forgot to mention VR thank you. Its a big part of my next gen experience as PSVR continues to amaze me. Even with people complaining about current VR resolution.

The stereoscopic immersion and being in a game is the draw for me. Astrobot is a defining game this gen for myself.

I also think VR is the secret sauce Lisa refers to.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

VFX is a respected poster. I personally dont discount his posts or take them as gospel. He is obviously very knowledgeable. Way more than myself.

If it is 9 than so be it. If it is more than great. I fully trust Sony, they know what they are doing and what they want to accomplish.

The PRO has blown me away on my 4K HDR set and its 4.2. Most gamers here are playing at 1.8TF and a jaguar. Imagine what first party output will look like with 9 or more and zen2 plus whatever secret sauce Lisa refers to.

There is almost nothing that can kill my excitement for next gen. A TF number isnt going to.

Put the hardware in the hands of GG, ND, SM, Dice, and whoever and prepare to be amazed.

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At least for me, I have nothing against VFX_Veteran nor what he posted. Rather, the idea that someone can post supposed insider information from anonymous sources and claim it as fact without any accountability to the mods.

Threads like these would be far less interesting if anyone could come and post any made-up BS they want without any accountability.

No-one is expecting people to give up their close friends publicly. But if you make the decision to post info. your friend told you in confidence, then you should be held accountable to either back-up that claim to the mods at the very least, or simply keep your insider info. to yourself and be happy that you're in a more privileged position than the rest of the unwashed masses on the forum.

 

[anexanhume]

ok guys what is the max TDP that MS/Sony could put on their console ? 200W?
The CPU could use 25 to 35w ? So maybe 150W max for the GPU part ?

My question is about HBM2 and GDDR6 consumption, it seems that HBM2 is less consuming that GDDR6 but how much ?

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Server CPUs and enthusiast GPUs can reach 250W+, but they have complex multi-fan cooling or noise-insensitive environments.

GDDR6 is between 2x and 4x the power consumption, but total memory power consumption is around 20W or less typically.

 

[gremlinz1982]

Agreed, but I don't think any of that really justifies the position that a console power advantage meaningfully impacts its success.

I'd argue go so far as to argue that the XB1's power disadvantage has made less of a difference this gen to the platforms' woes than the launch debacle and the severe lack of first party hit games in comparison with the competition.

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Microsoft had a better first party lineup for the first two years, and it did not result in much.

They got so much right in the last generation with Shane Kim, Peter Moore and company and it all went to the dogs with Don Mattrick and Terry Myerson. The console was not a problem, neither was their idea to chase a multimedia hub. The issues ran deep with pricing, forcing an add on that they thought would be a selling point considering Kinect's success the previous generation and their stance on DRM and used game sales.
That combined with their diminished first party lineup meant that they were now relying a lot on third party partners to really hit the right spot more so than they should be relied upon and they came up short.

This is something that also impacts how they develop games. Turn 10 and Playground have had to put out a quality game every two years, and the lack of enough teams working on games has also meant that they cannot really delay some of the more promising stuff until they are ready. Sea of Thieves should have had an extra year, State of Decay 2 should have had more time because both are vastly better titles with an extra year worth of content. But had they delayed them, what would they have had as exclusive content?

The mistakes Microsoft made late last generation caught up with them eventually because there was someone leading a division that did not understand where gaming was going. Not to mention that Sony is a juggernaut of a gaming brand......having more power to boot was always going to be a positive even before you mention that Microsoft did not have a year headstart this time.

Gaming generation market share trends always roll around a lot of factors. Even next generation, if Microsoft is doing better, it will not be a single factor.

 

[anexanhume]

For those who are so curious about the TFLOPS of the PS5 -- 9TF (~1080 performance)

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[gundamkyoukai]

Microsoft had a better first party lineup for the first two years, and it did not result in much.

They got so much right in the last generation with Shane Kim, Peter Moore and company and it all went to the dogs with Don Mattrick and Terry Myerson. The console was not a problem, neither was their idea to chase a multimedia hub. The issues ran deep with pricing, forcing an add on that they thought would be a selling point considering Kinect's success the previous generation and their stance on DRM and used game sales.
That combined with their diminished first party lineup meant that they were now relying a lot on third party partners to really hit the right spot more so than they should be relied upon and they came up short.

This is something that also impacts how they develop games. Turn 10 and Playground have had to put out a quality game every two years, and the lack of enough teams working on games has also meant that they cannot really delay some of the more promising stuff until they are ready. Sea of Thieves should have had an extra year, State of Decay 2 should have had more time because both are vastly better titles with an extra year worth of content. But had they delayed them, what would they have had as exclusive content?

The mistakes Microsoft made late last generation caught up with them eventually because there was someone leading a division that did not understand where gaming was going. Not to mention that Sony is a juggernaut of a gaming brand......having more power to boot was always going to be a positive even before you mention that Microsoft did not have a year headstart this time.

Gaming generation market share trends always roll around a lot of factors. Even next generation, if Microsoft is doing better, it will not be a single factor.

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MS having the better line up is subjective .
IMO both of them were trash but at least Sony had TLOU in first 2 years and a lot of PS4 owners never had PS3.

Agreed, but I don't think any of that really justifies the position that a console power advantage meaningfully impacts its success.

I'd even go so far as to argue that the XB1's power disadvantage has made less of a difference this gen to the platforms' woes than the launch debacle and the severe lack of first party hit games in comparison with the competition.

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The launch debacle was not even that bad since there first year sales were good .
Still after a while everything caught up to them and no matter what they did it was not enough .

 

[Deleted member 1589]

My greatest shame in those early PS4 years is that I actually like playing Shadow Fall even though the story is so, so bad.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

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When he goes up you should put a 9TF there and pause the sequence for about 2 seconds or so.

 

[ppn7]

Server CPUs and enthusiast GPUs can reach 250W+, but they have complex multi-fan cooling or noise-insensitive environments.

GDDR6 is between 2x and 4x the power consumption, but total memory power consumption is around 20W or less typically.

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Sony/MS could use the max power until mid gen Slim console and 7nm+ TSMC maybe

 

[Deleted member 12635]

My greatest shame in those early PS4 years is that I actually like playing Shadow Fall even though the story is so, so bad.

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I liked Two Worlds and Two Worlds II. Should I be ashamed too?

 

[Florin4k4]

So, what's new in the last few days? Are we 8/10/12/14 TFLOPS now?

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Yes

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Microsoft had a better first party lineup for the first two years, and it did not result in much.

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That's not true. They were pretty much neck and neck in the US and UK with Sony in terms of sales.

As time went on though, they slipped further and further behind.

Currently, their hardware sales seem to have stagnated, while their software sales and digital platform revenues are extremely healthy.

For me, that says a positive correlation between their weak first party and waning hardware sales. While both Sony and Nintendo who have had comparatively strong first party software output seem to be enjoying excellent sales success.

Of course, first party strength isn't the single influencing factor. But there's definitely a strong argument for it being a potential tipping point in the major markets when all else is equal.

The launch debacle was not even that bad since there first year sales were good .
Still after a while everything caught up to them and no matter what they did it was not enough .

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Perhaps.

I would argue that the launch sales were very much dominated by the core Xbox fanbase that were going to buy an Xbox regardless, together with those who saw more value in the Xbox launch games line-up. Once things equalized, the more casual gamer (most likely to be affected by the negative PR of the XB1 launch) was already conditioned to look beyond Xbox.

I admit that's my own speculation though.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

No, if you want to say you have 'sources', a mod has to vet you. Either you give up or show the proof to a mod.

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I never said I had sources. I said I know people in the gaming industry. In know way did I say, "hey guys, I got a reliable source that says blah-blah". I'm doing what everyone else is doing on this thread. Making blanket statements about what is/isn't in the hardware. You can take it or leave it.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

Yes my example was illustrative, but when I said 80% yield I was referring to chips that were at least not dead. So basically chips that have defects only on the GPU side of them. In which case, a portion of those chips (the best performing ones) will go to anaconda and the rest will go to lockhart. Also, while I know that lokhart is being pushed as the mass market device.... I don't think that's really what it is. I look t it as the whole PS3 60GB vs PS3 20GB. The cheaper 20GB was not the most available sku. Its really just there so MS can say "starting at XXX" where xxx is a price $100 less than whatever the PS5 is. I also see it as MS ay to ensure they still use all the chips they have available as opposed to only being able to use the chips that can lock the highest and have every single CU in the GPU working. That conundrum is what makes all AMD 64CU GPUs expensive because the yields are low for chips that can meet all those requirements.

Think of it this way. Both Sony and MS order chips. Both chips are pretty much the exact same size. And they both get 80% of the chips available on each wafer. That 80% yield puts the cost of each chip to around $150. Now for Sony, that's it for them, they will be able to use all of that 80% because they're disabling 4CUs. But for MS they can only use like 60% of that 80% because they are not disabling anything for anaconda. Rather than just throw away the remaining 40% of that 80%, they will put them in Lockhart. Now mind you, nothing stops them from making a Lockhart specific APU that has only 50CU (54CU with 4 disabled) but those will be ordered in a smaller quantity.

Either way, this represents the cheapest way for MS to do the whole dual SKU thing and still be more powerful than the PS5 even if they were technically spending the exact same amount of money Sony is spending on the PS5.


Yes you are right, mixed up my totals a bit, but we are still n the same ball park.

If jaguar 16nm took up 70mm2, then at 7nm it's safe to assume that an 8core ryzen which is bigger than jaguar will take up around the same 70mm2. 70mm2 for CPU + 140mm2 for GPU still puts us at around 210mm2. That is still leaving a lot of wiggle room for memory controllers I/O, caches..... etc for what should be an APU of anywhere between 300mm2 to 360mm2(as is in the XB1X). Ultimately we still fall in the same range of APU sizes that's been prevalent in the current gen.

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You're forgetting 64 ROPs, which should be around ~25mm. Decoders, buses, interconnects, secrets sauces, controllers etc need at least 160mm2.

Look at Xb1X, PS4 pro die shots, you can see that see that the none CPU and GPU portions of the die is more than half. Its the same case with the xbone and PS4 dies. It's the same with desktop GPU dies. actual compute logic (CPU, GPU cores, rops) is usually 45-52% of the die.

https://cdn.gamer-network.net/2018/screenshots/APUComp.jpg

140mm for 64 cus, 25mm2 for 64 ROPs, 75mm2 for Zen2 is 220mm. Add 160mm for none GPU and CPU stuff, which is a low ball, you're at least 380mm2.

For launch PS4, ~115mm2 were devoted to 20CUs and 32 ROPs, I expect the same for the PS5.

With that said, there are probably a bunch of desktop silicon in the Navi cores and ROPs that's not needed that will allow Sony to get around 48-54 CUs in less than 100mm2.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I never said I had sources. I said I know people in the gaming industry. In know way did I say, "hey guys, I got a reliable source that says blah-blah". I'm doing what everyone else is doing on this thread. Making blanket statements about what is/isn't in the hardware. You can take it or leave it.

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VFX you are not doing what everyone else does in this thread cause no else says the have friends in the industry after they post a TF number lol.
Still it no problem since you said you just doing what everyone else doing .

 

[Deleted member 12635]

Yes

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LOL. Perfect!

 

[anexanhume]

Sony/MS could use the max power until mid gen Slim console and 7nm+ TSMC maybe

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7nm+ likely won't be used in consoles because the tools and libraries aren't compatible with 7nm.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I never said I had sources. I said I know people in the gaming industry. In know way did I say, "hey guys, I got a reliable source that says blah-blah". I'm doing what everyone else is doing on this thread. Making blanket statements about what is/isn't in the hardware. You can take it or leave it.

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Err...?

I protect my sources. Why would I give them up and endanger their job?

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[ClarkusDarkus]

Yep i forgot to mention VR thank you. Its a big part of my next gen experience as PSVR continues to amaze me. Even with people complaining about current VR resolution.

The stereoscopic immersion and being in a game is the draw for me. Astrobot is a defining game this gen for myself.

I also think VR is the secret sauce Lisa refers to.

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Yeah i also reckon PS5 has some VR tidbits, That was rumoured yonks ago. What held PSVR back this gen was base ps4 and the need for parity with the PRO. So at least going forward the PS5 will support PSVR, And with that massive bump to CPU/SSD, Then we can expect some great looking games regardless if it's 8Tflop.

Farpoint on PSVR is really stunning too like Astro.

 

[•79•]

This thread has been overrun by fan boys.

 

[ClarkusDarkus]

I liked Two Worlds and Two Worlds II. Should I be ashamed too?

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Two Worlds 2 had the best looking skybox/Cloud system that gen. Janky euro RPG at it's best.

 

[EvilBoris]

How are "brute force" versus secret sauce or an elegant design quantified? I've seen this or similar mentioned a few times; when brute force is mentioned in this thread it's typically done as a pejorative, in comparison to an alternate more efficient (better) design.

The difference between the PS4 Pro and the 1X comes down to engineering and BOM. Both had chips produced on the same manufacturing node. The CUs on the 1X are 10% smaller than those on the PS4 Pro, and can clock close to 30% higher (with the aid of a more advanced cooler). The system has 4 more memory chips (and a larger memory bus on the SOC), a higher clocked CPU, packaged in a smaller and quieter form factor, and only draws about 20 watts more power. Results of 50-100% higher resolution are typical. Which design is brute force and which design is elegant/efficient/?

Edit - corrected math.

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"Brute force" is just a subtle fanboy method of saying their console of choice is more refined and smarter.
But ultimately they are just different machines, with different design objectives using the same core technologies

 

[Deleted member 1589]

I liked Two Worlds and Two Worlds II. Should I be ashamed too?

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at least that has a fanbase!

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Err...?

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That's called coersion. An immediate "state your source" could very well logically be responded by "I don't give up my sources.." I could have been playing along with the coersion. :)

Just give it up man. I'm waiting and so should you.