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Overall maximum teraflops for next-gen launch consoles?

  • 8 teraflops

    Votes: 43 1.9%
  • 9 teraflops

    Votes: 56 2.4%
  • 12 teraflops

    Votes: 978 42.5%
  • 14 teraflops

    Votes: 525 22.8%
  • Team ALL THE WAY UP +14 teraflops

    Votes: 491 21.3%
  • 10 teraflops (because for some reason I put 9 instead of 10)

    Votes: 208 9.0%

  • Total voters
    2,301
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nov 30, 2017
1,563
Cerny also designed the Vita. It was a great piece of HW. I still have one but cant beleieve it was ditched like it was.

I got my moneys worth out of it between remote play and Uncharted GA, Resistance, Tearaway, Killzone, and a few others.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Well then why have a higher powered console at all for either of them? Does resolution alone really make a difference? Seems like someone would have done a cheapo console with a nice cpu by now if that's all they'd lose
ERA wants a higher powered console. For months now the argument had been the attempt to twist the narrative to justify as expensive a hardware as possible. At this point most of ERA accept that having a single SKU that is 600 dollars is unworkable, so now the narrative is to have two SKUs to justify having the more expensive hardware surviving. Even though the logic doesn't justify the very SKU supporting itself.
 

iceatcs

Member
Oct 30, 2017
374
4TF doesn't matter because MS and many 3rd parties have to use the scale engine for their games because they aren't going to make only on Xbox, but also PC and cloud servers, as well multiplatform for the 3rd party.

3rd Party doesn't have to use this way, always can go for PC/PS4 if they can't afford the limitation of the scale engine.

The big question is will it work for the sale. We got to wait and see. I can tell they are more focus on the digital market.
 
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PetohKing

Alt account
Banned
Apr 16, 2019
82
ERA wants a higher powered console. For months now the argument had been the attempt to twist the narrative to justify as expensive a hardware as possible. At this point most of ERA accept that having a single SKU that is 600 dollars is unworkable, so now the narrative is to have two SKUs to justify having the more expensive hardware surviving. Even though the logic doesn't justify the very SKU supporting itself.
Two SKUs for Xbox is real. ERA didn't invent that.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
ERA wants a higher powered console. For months now the argument had been the attempt to twist the narrative to justify as expensive a hardware as possible. At this point most of ERA accept that having a single SKU that is 600 dollars is unworkable, so now the narrative is to have two SKUs to justify having the more expensive hardware surviving. Even though the logic doesn't justify the very SKU supporting itself.
LOL. This thread has been shitting on two SKUs from the start, yet somehow we've created the rumor to justify outlandish expectations? This thread needs a reality check.
 

Son Goku

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,332
LOL. This thread has been shitting on two SKUs from the start, yet somehow we've created the rumor to justify outlandish expectations? This thread needs a reality check.
To be clear I'm not questioning that there are two skus

I'm questioning it having seemingly no drawbacks or at least some seem to always come to the strategy's defense. So im asking why would they have not done this before and what are the drawbacks if any?
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Imo Google's Stadia is still the biggest hint we got yet, for what we can expect from next-gen consoles. It just seems so oddly specific:

nextgen49k5u.png


They could have easily added some of the system RAM to their RAM figure, to make it appear much bigger, but they didn't. Similar with the GPU, AMD already offers more powerful GPUs, for example the Radeon VII with 13.44 TFLOPS. But they chose a different card. And I don't think this is a coincidence... maybe they heard some things. That's why I expect something like this for PS5:

8 core Zen 2 CPU (~3 GHz)
10.7 TF Navi GPU
16-18 GB GDDR6 RAM
1 TB SSD

399-449

If Sony somehow manages to build an even more powerful machine - great. But I won't be disappointed if this is what we will get, it's still a massive leap, and seems like a nice, well-balanced and simple design.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
It's not a misunderstanding on my part. I don't believe those rumors - HBM, the split, or the amount. I believe you're going to see < / =16gb of traditional GDDR6.

I feel like I'm being a super bummer. Feel free to ignore me or maybe I should stop posting.

EDIT - Will continue to say I also believe $399.
First of all, from all the posters here in the thread you are actual the only one that is confirmed to worked on several console launched and in result you are in some kind a SME (subject matter expert) on the topic even not working anymore for Microsoft. So stop posting would take away a very valuable source of expertise in the discussion. You also shouldn't be bothered by us armchair product managers & business development executives ;)

Secondly I think the prediction of the price is actually harder than predicting the hardware as in my experience pricing is not just a question of cost+margin=price and instead very tight linked to the strategy you drive. Depending on the business goals it could for instance be viable to take a bigger loss to "buy market share" which might lead to higher revenue streams for accessories and games in the future. We all know (or should know) that margins are much better if we talk about software, accessories and services (in this order of magnitude). Those kind of decision are also influenced how much risk taking is common to an organization and if there is actually free money to invest in such a strategy.

To shorten it up for any price point estimation we don't have the necessary information about
  • Total cost per unit
  • gross margins (hardware, software, services)
  • pricing strategy
  • sales plans

So that are a lot of unknown variables we have to deal with here.

So let me ask you what type of indicators let you believe the price point you just mentioned in your comment? And do yo expect a similar pricing strategy from both platform holders we talk about here?
 
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BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,837
Australia
Some people (wrongly) based their assumption on PS5 being $399 because that's what the PS4 Pro was...

Honestly I think Sony just wanted to throw out a cheap upgrade with PS4 Pro...but they clearly admitted it wasn't going to be a major leap. I think that because they couldn't really touch the CPU, they thought there wasn't any big reason to go all out with all the bells and whistles...

This is the same Cerny that designed the base PS4....he knows what a generational leap entails, and PS5 isn't going to be a minor upgrade...they are going to go out and set the baseline for the coming gen so devs have something truly substantial to sink their prowess into

If that means $499, so be it. I think the market would easily go all out for an upgrade like that, plus they still have $199 for PS4 for the price conscious consumers

Yep, and think of all those PS4/Pro owners who can trade in their console, now that we know PS5 has PS4 BC at least. Since that wasn't so feasible in 2013, a $499 PS5 would kind of be the same price as the launch PS4.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Well then why have a higher powered console at all for either of them? Does resolution alone really make a difference? Seems like someone would have done a cheapo console with a nice cpu by now if that's all they'd lose

For the majority of games the majority of the GPU (80-97%) is used for doing pixels.
I don't know enough for more depth, but from what we have seen this gen resolution does scale very well, and the lockhart is possible because of the shift to 4k, before resolutions were not high enough for a lower end model to be feasible.

This post explains it well.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ecret-sauces-spicing-2019.91830/post-19961180
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
I just don't see a low-spec console working well if devs want to push boundaries with cb4k...

are they going to cb720p or cb1080p in those instances? i feel the technique is a good sub at higher resolutions but not so much at lower ones.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Probably Zen 2 Ryzen 7. Which is still hard to believe. Most likely will be based on Zen 2 Ryzen 5 but maybe its a devkit thing idk. The RAM speed puts it at HBM2 levels. Large amounts of VRAM and System RAM is just typical for Devkits tho.
Isn't ryzen 5 6 core? At least mine is. Sony already stated it's 8 core zen2
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Uh, they absolutely did. They quote a "total ram" number and an "up to 484GB/s" bandwidth figure. That pretty clearly translates to RAM being split between HBM for the GPU and DDR4 system memory.

The wording "total RAM" could indicate that, but the bandwidth figure is the standard bandwidth for 945MHz HBM2 on a 2048bit bus, which is found on many AMD cards with different memory amounts. In this Digital Foundry article they also talk about 16GB HBM2 memory. Perhaps there are some limitations regarding system RAM usage because of their virtualization solution, so that maybe you can't freely access system RAM in every situation?
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
To be clear I'm not questioning that there are two skus

I'm questioning it having seemingly no drawbacks or at least some seem to always come to the strategy's defense. So im asking why would they have not done this before and what are the drawbacks if any?

It will have the same drawbacks as a similarly speced PC.
A middle of the range RYzen cpu, 24gb ram, a Navi RX3060 will give similar performance to lockhart

And the same rig but with a Navi 3080 will give a ps5/anaconda like experience.

To be honest it could of been done this gen you could of made an X1 with a 7730 instead of a 7770, multiplats would of worked ok but @ lower res and settings. But you would be having resolutions of the PS3 gen to keep framerate good.

I just don't see a low-spec console working well if devs want to push boundaries with cb4k...

are they going to cb720p or cb1080p in those instances? i feel the technique is a good sub at higher resolutions but not so much at lower ones.

It will be fine if it has some GPU overhead. Maybe some settings would need to be lowered but it would still be good.
If they do lockhart, you will see.
 
Last edited:

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
So let me ask you what type of indicators let you believe the price point you just mentioned in your comment? And do yo expect a similar pricing strategy from both platform holders we talk about here?

Thank you for the kind words. It's just fun for me to be able to chime in with no risk of people thinking I'm shilling for someone. I've never actually been able to openly engage in a discussion around any of the other companies because of my role at Xbox. So it's fun to speculate and share some insights for a change. This may be the only console transition where I know enough to be helpful, but not enough to still have fun in the speculation.

I will say in every post first - I will never comment on the Xbox plans. I won't even hint. I'm careful in my word choice, so don't assume that anything I think Sony might do is trying to speculate as to what Xbox is going to do. With that out of the way...

I think Sony is going for $399 because it worked, pure and simple. It worked for base, it worked for Pro. Sony historically has not taken a huge leap in pricing - except once. I don't think Sony feels pressured by the X. I mean - I'm sure they don't like it. I'm sure they aren't pleased when DF comparisons favor the X. But if you look at sales it's not something they are probably overly focused on.

I look at it this way. You run Sony, and you are faced with two choices. One, you can build a very capable next-gen console with ~8tflops, Zen CPU, ~ 12-16gb of RAM and a 1tb SSD with PS4 back compat. It will be a bigger leap from Pro then Pro was from Base. It will have ~4.5x the GPU, ~4x the CPU, ~2x the RAM with much higher bandwidth, and I/O that's a generational leap in load times. I can do that at the same pricepoint that handed me 100m customers. Oh by the way you've had a mixed bag with BC in the past but you landed it this time.

OR

You can launch at the same price as the PS3 launched, in hopes of winning a horsepower battle with Microsoft that you have no way of knowing if they are even trying to fight.

It's just a no-brainier for me that Sony thinks $399 is the winning play. And I'm also in the minority thinking that it would be a pretty good box, and certainly a huge step-up from PS4 base which is the console owned by the bulk of my customers.

Now, the reason I get to chime in is that I don't know. This is what I base my assumption on, and it's been my assumption for many years. I stared with $399 and worked backwards to what could be built.

And I should also clarify that, historically, we've seen at least +/- 10% variability in final clocks even post announce. Near production silicon gives you an opportunity to play around with variables and if you remember the Xbox One launch they were able to increase the clock speed even after they announced specs. Same with Scorpio - that bring-up went really well and they discovered that there were a reasonable amount of SOC's that were stable at 6.6tflops so those went in devkits. Conversely PS3 had to disable one of the SPU's near announce because yields were a challenge.

So when I say ~8tflops, the reason I'm not making a firm stake in the ground is that if bring-up goes well, if Sony was targeting say 8.4tlfops, a 10% bump would get them to 9.2. Something like that is in the realm of possibility. Conversely, if they were targeting 10tflops, and were having yield issues, a 10% reduction would land them at 9tflops.

So you can see two completely different paths to 9tflops, and nobody outside the walls of Sony would know whether they exceeded their targets or missed them. All of these rumors of reported clock speeds don't have any idea of the nature of the test. Maybe they are testing the chip to see what the outer boundaries of failure are. I have no idea if the chip melted down shortly after running the benchmark. But I digress.

I think at $399 you're going to see something between the mid 8's and mid 9's. Nothing in that range would shock me. Anything in the 10's or higher would surprise me at $399. Above $399 there are a lot more things you can do.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,631
Thank you for the kind words. It's just fun for me to be able to chime in with no risk of people thinking I'm shilling for someone. I've never actually been able to openly engage in a discussion around any of the other companies because of my role at Xbox. So it's fun to speculate and share some insights for a change. This may be the only console transition where I know enough to be helpful, but not enough to still have fun in the speculation.

I will say in every post first - I will never comment on the Xbox plans. I won't even hint. I'm careful in my word choice, so don't assume that anything I think Sony might do is trying to speculate as to what Xbox is going to do. With that out of the way...

I think Sony is going for $399 because it worked, pure and simple. It worked for base, it worked for Pro. Sony historically has not taken a huge leap in pricing - except once. I don't think Sony feels pressured by the X. I mean - I'm sure they don't like it. I'm sure they aren't pleased when DF comparisons favor the X. But if you look at sales it's not something they are probably overly focused on.

I look at it this way. You run Sony, and you are faced with two choices. One, you can build a very capable next-gen console with ~8tflops, Zen CPU, ~ 12-16gb of RAM and a 1tb SSD with PS4 back compat. It will be a bigger leap from Pro then Pro was from Base. It will have ~4.5x the GPU, ~4x the CPU, ~2x the RAM with much higher bandwidth, and I/O that's a generational leap in load times. I can do that at the same pricepoint that handed me 100m customers. Oh by the way you've had a mixed bag with BC in the past but you landed it this time.

OR

You can launch at the same price as the PS3 launched, in hopes of winning a horsepower battle with Microsoft that you have no way of knowing if they are even trying to fight.

It's just a no-brainier for me that Sony thinks $399 is the winning play. And I'm also in the minority thinking that it would be a pretty good box, and certainly a huge step-up from PS4 base which is the console owned by the bulk of my customers.

Now, the reason I get to chime in is that I don't know. This is what I base my assumption on, and it's been my assumption for many years. I stared with $399 and worked backwards to what could be built.

And I should also clarify that, historically, we've seen at least +/- 10% variability in final clocks even post announce. Near production silicon gives you an opportunity to play around with variables and if you remember the Xbox One launch they were able to increase the clock speed even after they announced specs. Same with Scorpio - that bring-up went really well and they discovered that there were a reasonable amount of SOC's that were stable at 6.6tflops so those went in devkits. Conversely PS3 had to disable one of the SPU's near announce because yields were a challenge.

So when I say ~8tflops, the reason I'm not making a firm stake in the ground is that if bring-up goes well, if Sony was targeting say 8.4tlfops, a 10% bump would get them to 9.2. Something like that is in the realm of possibility. Conversely, if they were targeting 10tflops, and were having yield issues, a 10% reduction would land them at 9tflops.

So you can see two completely different paths to 9tflops, and nobody outside the walls of Sony would know whether they exceeded their targets or missed them. All of these rumors of reported clock speeds don't have any idea of the nature of the test. Maybe they are testing the chip to see what the outer boundaries of failure are. I have no idea if the chip melted down shortly after running the benchmark. But I digress.

I think at $399 you're going to see something between the mid 8's and mid 9's. Nothing in that range would shock me. Anything in the 10's or higher would surprise me at $399. Above $399 there are a lot more things you can do.
This really makes sense. But it's true that it assumes that Sony is going to go for a 399$ console, when my impressions after reading Wired's article is that 399$ might be a little low for what Sony wanted to put in that box, and Cerny kinda warned that the price will be "worth it", indicating that, yes, maybe it's more than 399$ but with good stuff prepared. 499$ is the absolute maximum they would go, I'm willing to bet.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
... very detailed response ...
Thank you for the very detailed answer. It will be very interesting how all plays out at the end of next year. Regarding the spec estimation I am (currently) on the same page as you. Just for fun I made a war room game with some possible threats and resulting actions for myself based on competition info triggers, own yield triggers, guiding principle & target triggers. Like you said there are a number of paths how you land at your final specs.
 

Ozorov

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,983
8-9TF with Zen 2, SSD etc seems like a very good value at 399 but I hope they go for 499 for the long term
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,760
What do we think would be the maximum reasonable amount for Sony to take as a loss on each PS5? The PS3 had a what, 400 dollar loss? Yeah that won't ever happen again. The PS4 had a roughly 60 dollar loss? Given how well Playstation as a whole is doing, the various ways they can make back their money on the PS5 (games, subscriptions, accessories...) and the fact that they'll still be making profits on the PS4 for maybe 3-4 years after the PS5 launches, what's the upper limit of reason for them to take a loss here? Will they make a $599 box and sell it for $399 to maintain that sweet spot? Or are we thinking a $100 loss on each console is more likely?
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
Do we think that Sony will play the FP16 card again for the PS5? It seems pretty much pointless in Pro but maybe this time around, it is actually worth working with.
 

OnPorpoise

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,300
My default PS5 prediction has always been $399, but after that Wired article it does seem like there is potential for a somewhat higher price point.

- Is $499 even a viable price point?
- How quickly can they reduce that price?
- Are there non-power benefits to a $499 console?

The good news is more detailed leaks are coming sooner rather than later, and we should be able to extrapolate potential cost significantly better than we can now.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Good analysis by Albert Penello, I think it would be somewhere around that range if Sony goes for a 399 pricepoint too.

The best rumor we have so far on the price to be on a higher range is from the reddit user RuthenicCookie who leaked that Sony won't appear in E3 this year. His/her source might be EA since the other rumor on Anthem was true;

Maybe they improved on some aspects that decided to cancel the delay, I'll confirm the Anthem situation with my source

Edit : Same answer as before it will get delayed, The thing is The Modified Frostbite engine on consoles isn't performing how they want to, The gameplay you see on live-streams are all modified demos

Edit edit : Ea wants it out before their earning report in March. That's all that matters not if the game is ready or not

According to him/her, it's going to be $500

Only thing i can tell right now for specs is Ryzen 8 core, Price is 500$

PS VR 2 on the other hand will have no breaker box this time around it'll be inside the console

EDIT: I'm also guessing the PS5 will be more than 9 teraflops, since the ballpark figure estimated by an AMD developer to run a game at PS4 image quality requires a 7.4 teraflops GPU

Now this (probably) doesn't take in account what it takes to run a game with next generation models, lighting, shading etc.
 
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VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
LOL. This thread has been shitting on two SKUs from the start, yet somehow we've created the rumor to justify outlandish expectations? This thread needs a reality check.
I am pretty sure I am responsible for 50% of the "shitting on" of the 2 SKU model. So if you take my posts out of consideration, I think the board in general is more accepting of the 2 SKU than I am.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,316
I for one welcome this 8TF talk because then we'll be pleasantly surprised...when the baseline was at 10.7TF there really wasn't much room to grow.

Having said that I was listening to my friend Jez the other day on the Xbox Two podcast, and Rand explained how 2 years ago someone from MS came to him and told him that they knew what Sony was working on, and thst Sony knew what they were working on.

Then Jez confirmed it. "Oh, they both know" (as a caveat, even if it seemed that he knew, maybe it is an opinion/expectation from him. Just putting it here to avoid later issues with overzealous fellow posters).

But you guys can judge by yourselves, if so inclined, it was on last weeks podcast I think, mb 2 weeks ago.

In any case It's something I've always been obsessed with; how much do they know about each others plans? How does that affect their own plans? Do they try to misdirect? Etc..

If we assume it's true it changes things quite a bit I think. It should affect our discourse and the way we interpret the execs one.

For example, people are always doubting Phil's words regarding Anaconda being the most powerful, because he doesn't know what the PS5 will be like, right? Well maybe he knows after all.

Or take Mark Cerny, maybe he is trying to misdirect MS with regards to the price of the SKU.

Lots of exciting new interpretations
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,241
Europe
My default PS5 prediction has always been $399, but after that Wired article it does seem like there is potential for a somewhat higher price point.

- Is $499 even a viable price point?
- How quickly can they reduce that price?
- Are there non-power benefits to a $499 console?

The good news is more detailed leaks are coming sooner rather than later, and we should be able to extrapolate potential cost significantly better than we can now.

499 might be difficult, especially if MS has a "next gen" budget version 100 cheaper and a deluxe version at 100 more. People on a budget might choose the cheapest option while people with money to burn might got for the most expensive.

I guess a lot (for both companies) will depend on the launch games (first and third party).

I am not what Sony strategy will be, but I think MS wants to launch more or less at the same time as Sony for maximum disruptive effect.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I am pretty sure I am responsible for 50% of the "shitting on" of the 2 SKU model. So if you take my posts out of consideration, I think the board in general is more accepting of the 2 SKU than I am.
Sure is. It's sometimes hard to breakout of the bubble that most of us are enthusiasts, and there are people out there who buys consoles just to play Madden, Fortnite, or FIFA.

For them maybe the absolute minimum to play a game is enough. Hell, it's not like OG PS4 sales decreased dramatically after the release of the PS4 Pro.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
499 might be difficult, especially if MS has a "next gen" budget version 100 cheaper and a deluxe version at 100 more. People on a budget might choose the cheapest option while people with money to burn might got for the most expensive.

I guess a lot (for both companies) will depend on the launch games (first and third party).

I am not what Sony strategy will be, but I think MS wants to launch more or less at the same time as Sony for maximum disruptive effect.
I think the purchase decision is also dependent on the TV & Audio equipment you own. You are still on 1080p you don't need 10TF to play games there. For those of us that already invested in a 4K TV the requirements look different. We want to play 4K content. The question is what is the market share of HD compared to UHD screens. If 1080p is still a large chunk of the market a console targeting this specific market with a lower price may be a viable option for the first years.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I think the purchase decision is also dependent on the TV & Audio equipment you own. You are still on 1080p you don't need 10TF to play games there. For those of us that already invested in a 4K TV the requirements look different. We want to play 4K content. The question is what is the market share of HD compared to UHD screens. If 1080p is still a large chunk of the market a console targeting this specific market with a lower price may be a viable option for the first years.
Not to mention Xbox first party games will come to the PC, so it makes sense for them to target them to work on say, a 1060 for 1080p gaming at least for the next few years.
 

msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
What do we think would be the maximum reasonable amount for Sony to take as a loss on each PS5? The PS3 had a what, 400 dollar loss? Yeah that won't ever happen again. The PS4 had a roughly 60 dollar loss? Given how well Playstation as a whole is doing, the various ways they can make back their money on the PS5 (games, subscriptions, accessories...) and the fact that they'll still be making profits on the PS4 for maybe 3-4 years after the PS5 launches, what's the upper limit of reason for them to take a loss here? Will they make a $599 box and sell it for $399 to maintain that sweet spot? Or are we thinking a $100 loss on each console is more likely?

I can see them taking a bit more loss on each machine sold, but most likely not a $200 loss.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,053
Anyone wanna take a guess at how the SSD solution in the PS5 will compare to what they're putting in Stadia? Will Stadia be reasonably close, or will it be no contest in load speeds and the ability to rapidly load assets on the fly?

If your game is in SSD (I'm still guessing only a cache amount) then it could be close. Stadia touts instant on but they must also be pulling from storage. In theory they could suspend your state to ram but what happens if the server instance is assigned to another user? It has to offload it
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,837
Australia
I can see them taking a bit more loss on each machine sold, but most likely not a $200 loss.

I mean, I did read that the PS2 launched for $299 at a $188 loss back in 2000. The PS5 launching for $399 at a $200 loss in 2020 would, given inflation, be basically the exact same thing, except with PS+ making things more feasible. $499 at a $200 loss would probably be too risky though.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,241
Europe
I think the purchase decision is also dependent on the TV & Audio equipment you own. You are still on 1080p you don't need 10TF to play games there. For those of us that already invested in a 4K TV the requirements look different. We want to play 4K content. The question is what is the market share of HD compared to UHD screens. If 1080p is still a large chunk of the market a console targeting this specific market with a lower price may be a viable option for the first years.
Maybe, but will most casual people know this? I don't think so.

MS is certainly NOT going to put a "best in 1080" sticker on their low entry machine. I will probably also have a 4K sticker(just upscaled).

This gen, like never before IMHO, launch games will be the key.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
True. I can see MS taking that loss if they can achieve a good GP subscription attach rate. Who knows, maybe their entry level SKU is the same as the big one but with an obliged "one year GP/Live" sub? Image that bombshell. :)
in my opinion , if MS wanted to take big loss like that , they wouldnt create lockhart.they would go with anaconda and just undercut PS5 by 50$.stronger and cheaper. but they decided not to do that . for sure they will be taking a bigger loss on anaconda compared to lockhart but nothing crazy like that.
 

chowyunfatt

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
333
What do we think would be the maximum reasonable amount for Sony to take as a loss on each PS5? The PS3 had a what, 400 dollar loss? Yeah that won't ever happen again. The PS4 had a roughly 60 dollar loss? Given how well Playstation as a whole is doing, the various ways they can make back their money on the PS5 (games, subscriptions, accessories...) and the fact that they'll still be making profits on the PS4 for maybe 3-4 years after the PS5 launches, what's the upper limit of reason for them to take a loss here? Will they make a $599 box and sell it for $399 to maintain that sweet spot? Or are we thinking a $100 loss on each console is more likely?
I would say $100, they can get that back through PSN and if it allows them a better console to start with I think they'll do it.
 

Mula

Banned
Jan 18, 2019
280
we should also consider why 399, - last generation worked well for Sony. They had the strongest console at a lower price (later at the same Price). I do not think Sony can repeat this.
The decision is to have a weaker cheap console or a competitive console at the same price as the competitor. Hm

Edit : later at the same Price
 
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msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
I mean, I did read that the PS2 launched for $299 at a $188 loss back in 2000. The PS5 launching for $399 at a $200 loss in 2020 would, given inflation, be basically the exact same thing, except with PS+ making things more feasible. $499 at a $200 loss would probably be too risky though.

During 6 months... Back then, new lithographic development were fast. This is not the case anymore...
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
Thank you for the kind words. It's just fun for me to be able to chime in with no risk of people thinking I'm shilling for someone. I've never actually been able to openly engage in a discussion around any of the other companies because of my role at Xbox. So it's fun to speculate and share some insights for a change. This may be the only console transition where I know enough to be helpful, but not enough to still have fun in the speculation.

I will say in every post first - I will never comment on the Xbox plans. I won't even hint. I'm careful in my word choice, so don't assume that anything I think Sony might do is trying to speculate as to what Xbox is going to do. With that out of the way...

I think Sony is going for $399 because it worked, pure and simple. It worked for base, it worked for Pro. Sony historically has not taken a huge leap in pricing - except once. I don't think Sony feels pressured by the X. I mean - I'm sure they don't like it. I'm sure they aren't pleased when DF comparisons favor the X. But if you look at sales it's not something they are probably overly focused on.

I look at it this way. You run Sony, and you are faced with two choices. One, you can build a very capable next-gen console with ~8tflops, Zen CPU, ~ 12-16gb of RAM and a 1tb SSD with PS4 back compat. It will be a bigger leap from Pro then Pro was from Base. It will have ~4.5x the GPU, ~4x the CPU, ~2x the RAM with much higher bandwidth, and I/O that's a generational leap in load times. I can do that at the same pricepoint that handed me 100m customers. Oh by the way you've had a mixed bag with BC in the past but you landed it this time.

OR

You can launch at the same price as the PS3 launched, in hopes of winning a horsepower battle with Microsoft that you have no way of knowing if they are even trying to fight.

It's just a no-brainier for me that Sony thinks $399 is the winning play. And I'm also in the minority thinking that it would be a pretty good box, and certainly a huge step-up from PS4 base which is the console owned by the bulk of my customers.

Now, the reason I get to chime in is that I don't know. This is what I base my assumption on, and it's been my assumption for many years. I stared with $399 and worked backwards to what could be built.

And I should also clarify that, historically, we've seen at least +/- 10% variability in final clocks even post announce. Near production silicon gives you an opportunity to play around with variables and if you remember the Xbox One launch they were able to increase the clock speed even after they announced specs. Same with Scorpio - that bring-up went really well and they discovered that there were a reasonable amount of SOC's that were stable at 6.6tflops so those went in devkits. Conversely PS3 had to disable one of the SPU's near announce because yields were a challenge.

So when I say ~8tflops, the reason I'm not making a firm stake in the ground is that if bring-up goes well, if Sony was targeting say 8.4tlfops, a 10% bump would get them to 9.2. Something like that is in the realm of possibility. Conversely, if they were targeting 10tflops, and were having yield issues, a 10% reduction would land them at 9tflops.

So you can see two completely different paths to 9tflops, and nobody outside the walls of Sony would know whether they exceeded their targets or missed them. All of these rumors of reported clock speeds don't have any idea of the nature of the test. Maybe they are testing the chip to see what the outer boundaries of failure are. I have no idea if the chip melted down shortly after running the benchmark. But I digress.

I think at $399 you're going to see something between the mid 8's and mid 9's. Nothing in that range would shock me. Anything in the 10's or higher would surprise me at $399. Above $399 there are a lot more things you can do.

Great post,thank you for your input.
 

Remo Williams

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 13, 2018
4,769
Do we think that Sony will play the FP16 card again for the PS5? It seems pretty much pointless in Pro but maybe this time around, it is actually worth working with.

It's apparently a standard feature of AMD GPUs from Vega onward, so it's almost certain to be supported on both PS5 and Scarlett. PS4 Pro already had some Vega features implemented.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
It's apparently a standard feature of AMD GPUs from Vega onward, so it's almost certain to be supported on both PS5 and Scarlett. PS4 Pro already had some Vega features implemented.
Interesting. It was one of those things mentioned randomly as a way the system would bridge a gap but it never really seemed to materialize in any meaningful way.
 

Farmerboy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
337
Melbourne Australia
I would say $100, they can get that back through PSN and if it allows them a better console to start with I think they'll do it.

Out of the two, I'm far more fascinated in what Sony will do. We know what they did when their backs we're against the wall. I wonder what they'll do from this position.

I'm not convinced they are willing to cede power or price. I do think they will be laser focused on messaging and an innovative product.

I fear that while MS has many things to communicate (gamepass, xcloud, lockheart, anaconda, new studios and how they all fit together) Sony will just come out with 1 sku, the right pricing, backwards compatibility and the masses won't consider moving. They've built trust and that will be hard to break.

Exciting times ahead.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
The wording "total RAM" could indicate that, but the bandwidth figure is the standard bandwidth for 945MHz HBM2 on a 2048bit bus, which is found on many AMD cards with different memory amounts. In this Digital Foundry article they also talk about 16GB HBM2 memory. Perhaps there are some limitations regarding system RAM usage because of their virtualization solution, so that maybe you can't freely access system RAM in every situation?

Obviously that is the standard HBM bandwidth for some cards, but again, Google only promises "up to" that rate. This pretty clearly implies some of the ram provisioned does not operate at such speeds. This makes sense because there is no practical way to run a game on Intel processors entirely from gpu memory.
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
I am pretty sure I am responsible for 50% of the "shitting on" of the 2 SKU model. So if you take my posts out of consideration, I think the board in general is more accepting of the 2 SKU than I am.

Nah, there's been a bunch of chatter about how it doesn't make sense, PS5 will be in the sweet spot, Lockhart will hold the entire gen back, 4K adoption rate makes it obsolete, it'll confuse the customers, it'll mess with developer resources, etc. plus many combinations of the above. And maybe they're all right. Who knows? Just reassuring you that you are definitely not alone.
 

Lucifonz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,132
United Kingdom
The discussion of $399 working well historically for Sony is an interesting one, and Albert's breakdown does add a lot of food for thought. I do think however that in this case not only are they in a strong position, but the general 'acceptable' average price of tech has increased a fair amount over the past few years. For this reason I'm still thinking $450-500 is much more likely - the affect that'll have on specs vs profitability though who knows.
 
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