• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

When will the first 'next gen' console be revealed?

  • First half of 2019

    Votes: 593 15.6%
  • Second half of 2019(let's say post E3)

    Votes: 1,361 35.9%
  • First half of 2020

    Votes: 1,675 44.2%
  • 2021 :^)

    Votes: 161 4.2%

  • Total voters
    3,790
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
(also posted in the AMD gaming APU thread)

Patents show AMD's post-Navi GPU could use an Nvidia-like architecture








RGaH1uk.jpg






byWMFOX.jpg





https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-next-gen-graphics-card-architecture-arcturus

Full article at the link. I'd bet there's a more than good chance Microsoft and AMD will get this GPU architecture into Xbox Scarlet consoles, given that the actual hardware for them very likely began R&D later than PS5 did.
If MS somehow got the post Navi architecture into Xbox within a year of PS5's launch, that would be a miracle, especially given the staffing rumors.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
(also posted in the AMD gaming APU thread)

Patents show AMD's post-Navi GPU could use an Nvidia-like architecture








RGaH1uk.jpg






byWMFOX.jpg





https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-next-gen-graphics-card-architecture-arcturus

Full article at the link. I'd bet there's a more than good chance Microsoft and AMD will get this GPU architecture into Xbox Scarlet consoles, given that the actual hardware for them very likely began R&D later than PS5 did.
what makes you think that, I assumed the x and scarlet were being developed in parallel? that being said, I agree if ether sony or ms would use it, its definitly ms.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
If MS somehow got the post Navi architecture into Xbox within a year of PS5's launch, that would be a miracle, especially given the staffing rumors.
I will add to that just this: If Sony is able to cooperate with AMD on NAVI to help them, so can do Microsoft with Arcturus. Last time I checked AMD claimed both architectures are "on track" and Arcturus is slated for 2020. So there is a chance some of Arcturus could find its way into a Xbox SOC. The emphasis is on "some of it".
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
If the patents are indeed pointing towards where AMD is going with their next architecture, it's such a major departure from what they're doing that I don't think much of its core improvements will be portable to Navi/GCN.
I mean its possable, thhough unlikely the first version is in scarlet like what happend with the 360, but that would be a major change in mentality by ms.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
I'd bet there's a more than good chance Microsoft and AMD will get this GPU architecture into Xbox Scarlet consoles, given that the actual hardware for them very likely began R&D later than PS5 did.

0% chance that Microsoft somehow gets to use an architecture that won't exist for at least another 2 years.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
So, how do you think "VR being baked into the PS5" will influence the performance of the machine. Pushing the VR break out box into the system can't be too cheap and will invariabel influence the costs of the APU. Do you think that this will be another Kinect moment, where power and consumer price is affected by something that most people don't care about?
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,753
So, how do you think "VR being baked into the PS5" will influence the performance of the machine. Pushing the VR break out box into the system can't be too cheap and will invariabel influence the costs of the APU. Do you think that this will be another Kinect moment, where power and consumer price is affected by something that most people don't care about?

I'm pretty sure there isn't really much in the breakout box. I'd imagine its effect on the PS5 cost and performance would be next to nothing.
 

Deleted member 25042

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,077
I wish they both would have waited for that post GCN architecture.
Navi still being GCN was a disappointement (edit: but should make BC a lot easier)
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
I doubt the more powerful product would release first and games would then later be downscaled to work with the weaker machine.
It only makes sense to start with Lockhart and release Anaconda later imo.
Mm. That's if we assume there's a long gap between the consoles (which, is the understandable natural assumption). And to be clear, I agree that's what they would probably do.. but.. I feel like releasing Anaconda just a bit early is the much more aggressive and intriguing move. It's kinda like paying more for the deluxe version of the game that lets you play a week early. Probably not right for most people, but there are definitely some who LOVE that.

As for studios, starting from the premise that both consoles COULD be released simultaneously Holiday 2020, then devs shooting for launch should be developing both versions in parallel. So, pushing one console up slightly puts some pressure on these studios, but.. spreading it over a few months gives you a lot more flexibility if one game really needs those extra 2 months versus one that was just hoping for the holiday sales boost (which this sort of marketing push with a cadence accomplishes in lieu of). Even more importantly, that's how dev kits work anyway - you start with more power than you'd get and then you optimize and cut down. Starting with the powerful machine might actually help devs target the weaker one with more constraints a little bit later.


So, how do you think "VR being baked into the PS5" will influence the performance of the machine. Pushing the VR break out box into the system can't be too cheap and will invariabel influence the costs of the APU. Do you think that this will be another Kinect moment, where power and consumer price is affected by something that most people don't care about?
Yea, this confuses me as well. Does building in VR do anything for Sony? Yes, if they can own the market and make VR an indispensable part of what it means to game. Color me skeptical. VR is building momentum, but it's not going to become truly pervasive for another 5-10 years minimum. And that's assuming that the underlying VR tech doesn't fundamentally shift sometime over this next console cycle. Considering PSVR has already had one breakout box iteration this gen to fix exactly this sort of incompatibility/design flaw (as have the other major manufacturers), I think it's very, very odd to think that Sony has committed to something so unproven, so hard. Doubt.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
I'm pretty sure there isn't really much in the breakout box. I'd imagine its effect on the PS5 cost and performance would be next to nothing.



Yea, this confuses me as well. Does building in VR do anything for Sony? Yes, if they can own the market and make VR an indispensable part of what it means to game. Color me skeptical. VR is building momentum, but it's not going to become truly pervasive for another 5-10 years minimum. And that's assuming that the underlying VR tech doesn't fundamentally shift sometime over this next console cycle. Considering PSVR has already had one breakout box iteration this gen to fix exactly this sort of incompatibility/design flaw (as have the other major manufacturers), I think it's very, very odd to think that Sony has committed to something so unproven, so hard. Doubt.

Well if it works out for them, they basically own the console VR market for the entire generation. But if it doesn't work out (which I believe because I think that VR is a niche product) then they have something baked into the system at the cost of all the other parts and Microsoft will just blaze along. Basically switching roles of this generation. To make VR work, you need to iron out many flaws that even the premium models are fighting against so I can't see Sony coming out with a game changer that is also cost effective.
 
Last edited:

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,302
0% chance that Microsoft somehow gets to use an architecture that won't exist for at least another 2 years.

Funny some of the same people that are telling us PS5 could be 8TF, and that we should temper our expectations, are the same that are not tempering their expectations at all regarding this matter, but the opposite xd
 

CosmicBolt

Self-Requested Ban
Member
Oct 28, 2017
884
Since ps4 pro had some Vega features even before Vega release. I'm expecting PS5 to have some features of the post Navi architecture.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
Funny some of the same people that is telling us PS5 could be 8TF, and that we should temper our expectations, are the same that are not tempering their expectations at all regarding this matter, on the contrary XD
I should be clear I dont think its likely, less than 10% chance, but if anyone could ms could. still stand by my 6tfp arcade, 8 tfps ps5, and 10 tfps scarlet.
 

RagdollRhino

Banned
Oct 10, 2018
950
Well if it works out for them, they basically own the console VR market for the entire generation. But if it doesn't work out (which I believe because I think that VR is a niche product) then they have something baked into the system at the cost of all the other parts and Microsoft will just blaze along. Basically switching roles of this generation. To make VR work, you need to iron out many flaws that even the premium models are fighting against so I can't see Sony coming out with a game changer that is also cost effective.

The attach rate for psvr is very high. Maybe they see profit in expanding that because in my experience, almost no one has even tried VR unless its mobile stuff. I honestly believe psvr2 will be separate from the ps5 and the current headset will work also.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
The attach rate for psvr is very high. Maybe they see profit in expanding that because in my experience, almost no one has even tried VR unless its mobile stuff. I honestly believe psvr2 will be separate from the ps5 and the current headset will work also.

Oh I am sure that it will be separate, I think their plan is to streamline to process so that you just need a single cable from the ps5 to the headset but you still have to buy the headset separately including all the accessories that are necessary.

I also just looked up the internals of the break out box and it doesn't seem to be anything special. A video media processor, 1gig of dd3 and 32 gigs of flash memory. So yeah, no real worries there that these might come at a cost of the rest of the hardware.

Link to the internals of the breakout box: http://vrextasy.com/vr-hmd/playstation-vr/playstation-vr-technical-details-and-specification
 

FSavage

Member
Oct 30, 2017
562
Oh I am sure that it will be separate, I think their plan is to streamline to process so that you just need a single cable from the ps5 to the headset but you still have to buy the headset separately including all the accessories that are necessary.

I also just looked up the internals of the break out box and it doesn't seem to be anything special. A video media processor, 1gig of dd3 and 32 gigs of flash memory. So yeah, no real worries there that these might come at a cost of the rest of the hardware.

Link to the internals of the breakout box: http://vrextasy.com/vr-hmd/playstation-vr/playstation-vr-technical-details-and-specification

3D audio built in would benefit all games on PS5 too, specially now the Sony purchased Wwise..
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,844




Well if it works out for them, they basically own the console VR market for the entire generation. But if it doesn't work out (which I believe because I think that VR is a niche product) then they have something baked into the system at the cost of all the other parts and Microsoft will just blaze along. Basically switching roles of this generation. To make VR work, you need to iron out many flaws that even the premium models are fighting against so I can't see Sony coming out with a game changer that is also cost effective.

There is a whole lot of stuff in that breakout box that wouldn't be necesssary if those processes could be integrated.

It would be unecessary to process the HDMI signal into a digital image for manipulation. I'd expect it to work off the output buffer.
The HDMI pass through functionality would be unnecessary.
No additional dedicated ram/memory controller. I'd expect the system/OS ram to cover additional operations.
Usb connection/processing for relaying signals from the headset back to ps4.
No power supply, casing, packaging.

The additional audio processing would surely be able to benefit traditional games.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,828
Australia
Well if you think about it. Now because of the X everybody is talking it about devices 10+TF. If the X never arrived I would assume no one would have flinched in thinking 8TF was too low for this next-gen. Now somehow 8TF is seen as too weak for next gen even though it is over 4 times the processing power of the PS4.

4.4x PS4 would've been considered crap regardless of the X's existence. It would be one of the smallest GPU leaps ever combined with one of the biggest resolution jumps. The 360-to-X1 jump was bigger than this, and it was resoundingly trashed - and the resolution jump was only 2x.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,514
Chicagoland
4.4x PS4 would've been considered crap regardless of the X's existence. It would be one of the smallest GPU leaps ever combined with one of the biggest resolution jumps. The 360-to-X1 jump was bigger than this, and it was resoundingly trashed - and the resolution jump was only 2x.

BreakAtmo, I agree with your post 100%

Since ps4 pro had some Vega features even before Vega release. I'm expecting PS5 to have some features of the post Navi architecture.

Same here. I almost expect both PS5 and Xbox Next GPUs to be a very similar semi-custom mix of Navi and post Navi elements.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,828
Australia
There is a whole lot of stuff in that breakout box that wouldn't be necesssary if those processes could be integrated.

It would be unecessary to process the HDMI signal into a digital image for manipulation. I'd expect it to work off the output buffer.
The HDMI pass through functionality would be unnecessary.
No additional dedicated ram/memory controller. I'd expect the system/OS ram to cover additional operations.
Usb connection/processing for relaying signals from the headset back to ps4.
No power supply, casing, packaging.

The additional audio processing would surely be able to benefit traditional games.

Yep. I suspect Sony would've put the PSVR breakout box in the PS4 if they had been able to.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
4.4x PS4 would've been considered crap regardless of the X's existence. It would be one of the smallest GPU leaps ever combined with one of the biggest resolution jumps. The 360-to-X1 jump was bigger than this, and it was resoundingly trashed - and the resolution jump was only 2x.
I still rather take 6tfps at 1080p, than 12tfps at 4k. you get both a better looking and better running game that way.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,828
Australia
BreakAtmo, I agree with your post 100%



Same here. I almost expect both PS5 and Xbox Next GPUs to be a very similar semi-custom mix of Navi and post Navi elements.

Thanks. I will say that if Sony decided to stick with reconstructed 4K30 for all games then 8TF would be barely acceptable, but having to go 1080p for any kind of performance mode would suck, especially for $399. Hopefully in a few months, that rumored $249 RX 3080 will be out with all the power AdoredTV claimed and the 8TF talk will go out the window.

I still rather take 6tfps at 1080p, than 12tfps at 4k. you get both a better looking and better running game that way.

Sony will be wanting to at least be able to advertise True 4K, as an upgrade from the dynamic/reconstructed 4K of the Pro. Hopefully we'll also get modes that reconstruct the resolution as well, to focus on framerate, so you at least get the better running part.
 

msia2k75

Member
Nov 1, 2017
601
(also posted in the AMD gaming APU thread)

Patents show AMD's post-Navi GPU could use an Nvidia-like architecture








RGaH1uk.jpg






byWMFOX.jpg





https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-next-gen-graphics-card-architecture-arcturus

Full article at the link. I'd bet there's a more than good chance Microsoft and AMD will get this GPU architecture into Xbox Scarlet consoles, given that the actual hardware for them very likely began R&D later than PS5 did.

Sounds like "paper FLOPs" might take a hit though...
 

ImGumbyDammit

Banned
Nov 25, 2018
133
Didn't an Xbox exec tweet out the hashtag "roadmap"? Roadmap means multiple products over a period of time, not a single launch
The attach rate for psvr is very high. Maybe they see profit in expanding that because in my experience, almost no one has even tried VR unless its mobile stuff. I honestly believe psvr2 will be separate from the ps5 and the current headset will work also.

Attach rate for PSVR is not high are you high? At best you are talking around 4%. That is not a high attachment rate. I can guarantee (and with Kodera himself backing me up at the last investors meeting) that the PSVR is nowhere near living up to their expectations. A reasonably acceptable attachment rate would have been north of 10% for this device. A high attachment rate would have been 15% to 20%.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,753
Attach rate for PSVR is not high are you high? At best you are talking around 4%. That is not a high attachment rate. I can guarantee (and with Kodera himself backing me up at the last investors meeting) that the PSVR is nowhere near living up to their expectations. A reasonably acceptable attachment rate would have been north of 10% for this device. A high attachment rate would have been 15% to 20%.

This was from August 2018

We are excited to reveal today that Sony Interactive Entertainment has officially sold-through more than three million PlayStation VR systems worldwide, along with 21.9 million PS VR games and experiences.

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2018/08/16/celebrating-3-million-ps-vr-systems-sold/
 

Putty

Double Eleven
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
929
Middlesbrough
So we're taking Putty's post as confirmation of TF numbers right? if so, he also said release early 2020 and fall 2020 worst case

No, we're not taking puttys post as confirmation. As ive said all along, im am playing along like everyone else, speculating like everyone else, why on earth would you take my post as confirmation of anything?! Good heavens above...
 

RagdollRhino

Banned
Oct 10, 2018
950
Attach rate for PSVR is not high are you high? At best you are talking around 4%. That is not a high attachment rate. I can guarantee (and with Kodera himself backing me up at the last investors meeting) that the PSVR is nowhere near living up to their expectations. A reasonably acceptable attachment rate would have been north of 10% for this device. A high attachment rate would have been 15% to 20%.


I meant the attach for games, not the hardware itself. Everyone knows psvr hasnt sold well. My point was trying to make a case why Sony would include the breakout box to get more consumers to try VR and, buy more games.

Later in that same post you quoted I even stated that almost no one has tried psvr. Why would I think the attach rate is high?
 

Putty

Double Eleven
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
929
Middlesbrough
THANKYOU pswii60 guy/gal. Also, im not a developer, im a composer, just to be TOTALLY clear here! I am all in with you guys regarding excitment of what the next PS is going to be, but please i am no different to anyone else in this entire thread.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
Attach rate for PSVR is not high are you high? At best you are talking around 4%. That is not a high attachment rate. I can guarantee (and with Kodera himself backing me up at the last investors meeting) that the PSVR is nowhere near living up to their expectations. A reasonably acceptable attachment rate would have been north of 10% for this device. A high attachment rate would have been 15% to 20%.

Given it's a several hundred dollar add on, a few million sold is pretty good actually. Especially if people are buying games for it.

Iirc, it was also the overall sales leader for vr for some time. May still be.

Vrs biggest issue is you have to play it to understand its allure. It doesn't stream well on twitch, video doesn't capture its effect, etc. not an easy thing to market over all.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,753
THANKYOU pswii60 guy/gal. Also, im not a developer, im a composer, just to be TOTALLY clear here! I am all in with you guys regarding excitment of what the next PS is going to be, but please i am no different to anyone else in this entire thread.

... Putty knows something, get him!!!!


Kidding, kidding. The excitement over next gen is glorious. Can't wait to see what secret sauce each company comes up with so people can debate endlessly which sauce is saucier!
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
I will add to that just this: If Sony is able to cooperate with AMD on NAVI to help them, so can do Microsoft with Arcturus. Last time I checked AMD claimed both architectures are "on track" and Arcturus is slated for 2020. So there is a chance some of Arcturus could find its way into a Xbox SOC. The emphasis is on "some of it".

Last I checked, AMD hasn't mentioned anything about the post-Navi architecture, so i'm Not sure what you're referring to?

Also, Navi launching this year is already 9 months later than it was originally planned. So AMD saying something is "on track" with their current staffing situation should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,794
I try to stay out of this thread for reasons but take a peak now and then for entertainment.
I am curious where did the 8tf ps5 news come from?
 
Last edited:

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I try to stay out of this thread for reasons but take a peak now and then for entertainment.
I am curious where did the 8tf ps5 news come from?

There was a supposed 'leak' which was probably just some 4chan fakery that mentioned that Microsoft's consoles would be 6tf & 12 tf while Sony's would be 8tf.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,828
Australia
One thing I was thinking about and am a little unclear on. I know it's pretty well established that the big jump this time will be CPU while GPU will be more modest. But the assumed specs I've heard have been:

CPU: Zen2 with 8 cores like Jaguar, possibly up to double the clock speed, and 40% better IPC along with probably SMT, which sounds like a 3-4x upgrade.
GPU: 10TF, which is more than 5x PS4.

Is the huge CPU jump just in comparison to previous jumps?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
I try to stay out of this thread for reasons but I am curious where did the 8tf ps5 news/rumor come from?

The Japanese engineering sample of Gonzalo (not sure if it's even PS5). People saw 1GHz GPU clock for the engineering sample (which are normally clocked low), took that and combined it with the idea that Navi will be weighed down by the same 64CU limit as Vega (because.... reasons), ergo 8tf as the most pessimistic expectation.

The 8tf number is basically just speculation. Only the 1GHz clock is referenced rumour, which in itself refers to an engineering sample so shouldn't really be taken as the final clocks for production silicon.

But alas, anything that gives folks the ability to calculate their flops and jump to conclusions and folks will run with it.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
One thing I was thinking about and am a little unclear on. I know it's pretty well established that the big jump this time will be CPU while GPU will be more modest. But the assumed specs I've heard have been:

CPU: Zen2 with 8 cores like Jaguar, possibly up to double the clock speed, and 40% better IPC along with probably SMT, which sounds like a 3-4x upgrade.
GPU: 10TF, which is more than 5x PS4.

Is the huge CPU jump just in comparison to previous jumps?
a dev confirmed a few years back that the ps4/xb1 had weaker single thread performance than the 360, but the 360 had 3 cores, where as the ps4/xb1 has 8, so make of that as you will.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,753
I'm gonna toss something out there. What if next gen console cameras had this eye tracking tech built into it?



You're in a firefight and want to more precisely target an enemy? Just look at him. Of course that demo had the person sitting a couple of feet away from the sensor and a consumer product would have to track your eyes from upwards of 15 feet away... but the idea seems pretty cool. With Sony so big into eye tracking on their camera and newer time of flight sensors being used in mobiles to accurately measure distances and whatnot, it almost feels like something they could do if they wanted to.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
I just saw December NPD thread,thanks to Magicpork: PS4 numbers in December were bad,very bad,according to Benji "abysmal" for both PS4 and X1.

PS4 is down -24% YoY in US.This year sales will be way down comparing to 2018.No reason for Sony to wait 2020,sales will fall off the cliff by then.

To quote Benji: "2019 is going to be a disaster for Xbox and PS4 hardware comps. Buckle up"
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
I just saw December NPD thread,thanks to Magicpork: PS4 numbers in December were bad,very bad,according to Benji "abysmal" for both PS4 and X1.

PS4 is down -24% YoY in US.This year sales will be way down comparing to 2018.No reason for Sony to wait 2020,sales will fall off the cliff by then.
I cant see it being released before 2020, if we are just now seeing enginering samples.
 
Jan 2, 2018
2,028
The Japanese engineering sample of Gonzalo (not sure if it's even PS5). People saw 1GHz GPU clock for the engineering sample (which are normally clocked low), took that and combined it with the idea that Navi will be weighed down by the same 64CU limit as Vega (because.... reasons), ergo 8tf as the most pessimistic expectation.

The 8tf number is basically just speculation. Only the 1GHz clock is referenced rumour, which in itself refers to an engineering sample so shouldn't really be taken as the final clocks for production silicon.

But alas, anything that gives folks the ability to calculate their flops and jump to conclusions and folks will run with it.
Exactly. I find it ridiculous that some actually think we're gonna get an 8tf GPU..in 2020 no less.
I wouldn't be surprised if final clocks for both CPU and GPU would go up to 3.4ghz and 1.2ghz respectively,even though I think CPU speed is great as is.
I remain optimistic for next gen- AMD's roadmap for it is far,far better than it was for last gen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.