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KingM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,476
DBS just lacks any real training substance. Everything in Z showed the importance of training. Super it all feels rushed. Even vegetas training in Moro was just rushed non sense.
Z dropped training part way through the Cell arc. The time chamber is a free way to justify getting a huge leap in power in basically time. Then add on fusion, unlocking power, etc. And all the leaps from the start of Z are giant anyway. Goku goes from a power level of 300 to 150,000,000 in a little more than a year and everyone else that stays relevant makes similar leaps in roughly the same, or less, time.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,000
DBS just lacks any real training substance. Everything in Z showed the importance of training. Super it all feels rushed. Even vegetas training in Moro was just rushed non sense.

Goku and Vegeta train a lot in DBS, Vegeta is often entering his gravity room and Goku heads off to King Kai's place or his own house. If not that then they both train with Whis. Piccolo trained Gohan throughout most of DBS as well.

Lets not pretend that DBZ didn't do instant power ups (Saiyans recovering from near fatal battle damage, potential unlocks, etc.) because training often flatlines the pacing.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I like the Moro Arc for being a stupid celebration of everything Z-era and think the anime expanding on some elements like Goku and co. with the Space Patrol and fighting the convicts will be cool. šŸ¤·
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
I bet I can guess the ending: Goku beats the baddie after everyone else gets chumped.
That only happened once in Super, and only in the one arc where Toriyama didn't write its outline. This is a Toriyama story, so he probably will go for another twist ending.

Will they finally bring back Broly in this arc?
I think Broly will never join the main cast because he'd instantly steal Vegeta's position.
 
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SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,000
Dragonball fanatics are basically the same as Star Wars fanatics at this point.

Quite the opposite. Star Wars is often praised because its Star Wars but Dragon Ball gets criticized for being Dragon Ball. I understand that Star Wars has its haters from sexist or racist idiots, but Dragon Ball gets so much shit from people who are super fans of Anime in general.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,869
Dragonball fanatics are basically the same as Star Wars fanatics at this point.

I feel like it's the opposite?

Toyo is obsessed with forms, overly technical fandom naming conventions and memes, power ups, and nostalgia. It's basically if the Star Wars fanatics were the ones running the series.
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,050
Toriyama writing the draft pretty much confirms this is getting adapted into an anime.

Guess anime Moro will be a thing.

Toei will fix most of it, I'm sure of it.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,000
I just want to add that Super critics judge the minute to minute aspects of the show but completely dismiss the fact that it does something DB rarely thought about ..... world building.

In DBZ, outer space was essentially "Frieza rules it and everything else is dust in comparison to him. And Namek have very powerful wishing orbs". Everything else was sci-fi creations or a really ancient demon locked away by a powerful wizard. After that, it hit a wall that DBS broke and continuously builds on.

Universes were introduced, and we got a nice look at how a handful of them are through the ToP.

Frieza and Broly are running around in U7

With that, new characters are always being introduced as well. I only have knowledge up to the Broly movie since I am waiting for the anime's returns, but DBS (flaws and all) has made the series more expansive and interesting that it has ever been
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,534
Bringing back UI so soon and this time as a regular power up that Goku can activate at will ruined any potential for future stories. UI is endgame stuff, it shouldn't have come back so soon, should've been post EoZ stuff.

Feels like UI's potential was wasted.

Fighting instinctively is like the the ultimate martial artist skill.

Goku should have been able to get back to Omen and thus tap into UI and UI combined with Goku being a genius fighter could have lead to a bigger focus on martial arts to return to the series with Goku beating a big bad through his actual skill as a fighter.

Following that we could have had Goku experiment with UI and try and achieve Kaioken in it or ssj

Eventually Mastered UI makes its return in a big and hype way. Instead it immediately just became Goku's next form
 

Run Goku

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,141
Maybe unpopular, but I liked Moro well enough and wouldn't mind seeing his arc adapted. I also wouldn't mind if they changed it up and skipped his last two forms, which didn't 100% land for me. He lost some of his visual identity there. But it could be fun to see how it plays out in animated form.
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,562
I just want the anime to come back.

I'm praying it adopts the Broly movie art style, Dragon Ball has never looked so clean
 

Scarlet Spider

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,743
Brooklyn, NY
Oh man, what problem will Goku and Vegeta take on this time while everyone else monologues about how the opponent is doing something with their mouths agape. Before it whittles down to Goku having to asspull a victory. Nothing is really at stake as long as EoZ exists.

Can't wait for some more power creep. SS3 should have been the absolute limit for the Saiyan species, with God form/SSB being a one time thing. UI should have been the goal for anyone that dabbled in God Ki, since it's not a transformation. I would not be surprised if Goku somehow combined UI with Super Saiyan.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
Sounds like there's a better plan I'm place than "Let Toyotaro do his fanfic thing"
Bruh this is literally an incorrect take and misinformation, which is a shame because you're the one making these DBS manga threads. Its literally been confirmed by V Jump that Toriyama wrote the Moro arc with Toyotaro.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,917
Overall I kinda liked the Moro arc. Even more so than ToP, the non-Saiyans had some time to shine even if Goku had to show up and school everyone at the end of the day. We got some cool lore dumps between the Kais, Angels, and Galactic Patrol. And Vegeta almost got his shine against the big bad.

Of the Super Arcs, I'd probably place this below Goku Black and around the same tier as ToP which is above U6 for me. ToP had higher highs but also much lower lows. I found Moro consistently entertaining for the most part.

Goku and Vegeta train a lot in DBS, Vegeta is often entering his gravity room and Goku heads off to King Kai's place or his own house. If not that then they both train with Whis. Piccolo trained Gohan throughout most of DBS as well.

Lets not pretend that DBZ didn't do instant power ups (Saiyans recovering from near fatal battle damage, potential unlocks, etc.) because training often flatlines the pacing.
Nostalgia hits people hard. Super was never going to live up to the hype for some people. A lot of the complaints against Super are just as applicable to Z.
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,028
So can we once again assume that Vegeta will be robbed somehow and Goku will save the day? Because I would really like to be wrong and see it be Geets stoping robbed (or fuck it - literally anyone other than Goku getting to something worthwhile that isn't "help Goku power up").

Aside from Gohan saving the day in the Cell Arc, has anyone else ever beaten the Big Bad other than Goku?

Well, I guess there was the Goku Black arc.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,358
Florida
I already see this turning into a Darling in the Franxx situation where anything people like about the arc will be credited to Toriyama and everything they hate will be the fault of Toyotaru. lol
 

TorianElecdra

Member
Feb 25, 2020
2,510
Dragon Ball should have ended after Cell. Black Goku was interesting for a minute and then it went to shit. Everything else has been fanfic levels of bad.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,376
I did a brief read through of the Moro arc a while ago, I think it's good and has potential. Just cut it into a third of what it is currently. Skip the Grand Supreme Kai shit and just have a planet eater show up on Earth. Idk.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
With that being said, the manga completely fails as a standalone product.

Tbh as a companion to the anime, it isn't bad. It offers up some cool shit that the anime doesn't do, like when we saw Future Trunks take on Dabura and Babidi. That was executed 100x better in the manga than in the anime. We also get some lore tidbits here and there as well only in the manga. Sometimes things like activated SSJ God transformation will appear in the manga first, as a teaser for when it gets introduced to the anime.

But as a standalone product? It not only botches various arcs in the series, but it literally SKIPS Resurrection F and Broly which are two extremely important arcs in the grand scheme of things. LIke I get that Resurrection F was a rather poorly written story, but it still introduced us to SSJ Blue, Golden Freeza, etc. with Freeza making his return both in the Tournament of Power and the Broly movie later on. You simply don't skip stuff like that in a story. It's just lazy.
 

daveo42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,250
Ohio
Wild to see Toriyama come back, but he probably looked at the last Super arc and said, "Hey kid, what the fuck are you doing? This is trash. Let a real mangaka fix this shit for you." Hopefully this ends up being better, but the name Granola is dumb af.
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
It's a shame the Super manga is terrible. The art and panelling aren't nearly good enough to make up for the awful writing.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,000
Wild to see Toriyama come back, but he probably looked at the last Super arc and said, "Hey kid, what the fuck are you doing? This is trash. Let a real mangaka fix this shit for you." Hopefully this ends up being better, but the name Granola is dumb af.

I doubt that, why would he choose to tie directly to the last arc if that were the case? I will see how I like it once it gets adapted to the next DB anime, but I just think people are overreacting as they consistently do with DB.

"OMG the XXXXXX arc was so bad!" has been said about virtually every DB saga outside of the Frieza one in DBZ. And the only one that has ever been as bad as people say is the Resurrection F movie adapted to anime arc
 

Host Samurai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,160
Maybe unpopular, but I liked Moro well enough and wouldn't mind seeing his arc adapted. I also wouldn't mind if they changed it up and skipped his last two forms, which didn't 100% land for me. He lost some of his visual identity there. But it could be fun to see how it plays out in animated form.
I think it was a great arc imo. My only issue with it was that Moro started off very interesting as a villain, but his last incarnation of 7-3 gave off too much Cell and Super Buu vibes. It follows the path of Cell and Buus first forms, which were unique and interesting, but end up mundane.

This arc had a lot of things going for it. World building, unique new enemy, location variety, henchmen and mini bosses for the mid carders to beat down, new moves and abilities for Goku and Vegeta, Fat Buu getting a chance to shine and a conclusion that goes right into the next arc.

I just need an interaction between Frieza, Buu and Future Trunks.
 

DemyxC

Member
Dec 3, 2020
701
I really don't like people blaming toyo for everything. A lot of what's wrong with dragon ball is Toriyama fault full stop.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,834
Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc > Androids/Cell Arc(s).
Don't @ me.

giphy.gif
 

Cordy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,326
Mannn....imma keep it a buck.

That Moro Arc was actually trash. The only reason some people like it because they liked "how cool" certain stuff was about it. From a writing, character and pure sequencing perspective it was the worst arc in this series. I've had some knocks against Super but in general overall it was pretty good, even the lower tiered arcs at least had a good focus and didn't ruin things much (even Trunks' Spirit Sword stuff). This arc though, nah. It's not completely 100% bad but it's bad enough to be considered trash. I mean...

Goku and Vegeta get beaten by the bad guy 2293939 times. They never learned after each fight. Bad.
New character is introduced who's instantly better than Goku and Vegeta in every way from fighting skills, race, intelligence, just overall better to the point where he's got no faults other than "he cares too much." Trash.
Goku's character regressed multiple times. Horrible.
New character saves the heroes multiple multiple multiple times. They're a plot device. Shitty.
Goku's UI/MUI form is made out to look worse rather than it being saved as a trump card as it normally should be.
New character dies but is revived again because hey, people can't stay dead even though him staying dead would have been the easiest and best choice ever.

These are just what I've thought of off top.

Now, the anime can potentially change a lot of this and make it work once it returns and they redo this arc. If they can fix the numerous issues? It can be great because for as bad as the arc is there's been some good parts about it.

Moro's got some cool designs.
Vegeta's training is dope.
The lower cast get things to do which is always needed.
Uub.
Majin Buu does things.
A lot of the bad guys are pretty cool and unique, would be dope for a fighting game and Dokkan/Legends.

Still those things aren't enough to make up for the bad of that arc. It just is what it is. I'd say on a scale of 1-10, if 1 is completely horrible and not worthy of anything and 10 is the most amazing arc ever, 5 is average, this arc is a 4.

With that said, this Granola Arc I'm already digging more from the jump way more than the crap we just saw. I hope it is great so we'll see.
 

rrc1594

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,775
Mannn....imma keep it a buck.

That Moro Arc was actually trash. The only reason some people like it because they liked "how cool" certain stuff was about it. From a writing, character and pure sequencing perspective it was the worst arc in this series. I've had some knocks against Super but in general overall it was pretty good, even the lower tiered arcs at least had a good focus and didn't ruin things much (even Trunks' Spirit Sword stuff). This arc though, nah. It's not completely 100% bad but it's bad enough to be considered trash. I mean...

Goku and Vegeta get beaten by the bad guy 2293939 times. They never learned after each fight. Bad.
New character is introduced who's instantly better than Goku and Vegeta in every way from fighting skills, race, intelligence, just overall better to the point where he's got no faults other than "he cares too much." Trash.
Goku's character regressed multiple times. Horrible.
New character saves the heroes multiple multiple multiple times. They're a plot device. Shitty.
Goku's UI/MUI form is made out to look worse rather than it being saved as a trump card as it normally should be.
New character dies but is revived again because hey, people can't stay dead even though him staying dead would have been the easiest and best choice ever.

These are just what I've thought of off top.

Now, the anime can potentially change a lot of this and make it work once it returns and they redo this arc. If they can fix the numerous issues? It can be great because for as bad as the arc is there's been some good parts about it.

Moro's got some cool designs.
Vegeta's training is dope.
The lower cast get things to do which is always needed.
Uub.
Majin Buu does things.
A lot of the bad guys are pretty cool and unique, would be dope for a fighting game and Dokkan/Legends.

Still those things aren't enough to make up for the bad of that arc. It just is what it is. I'd say on a scale of 1-10, if 1 is completely horrible and not worthy of anything and 10 is the most amazing arc ever, 5 is average, this arc is a 4.

With that said, this Granola Arc I'm already digging more from the jump way more than the crap we just saw. I hope it is great so we'll see.

This. The only thing that was great was Goku ending it with a Thumbs up. This could have all the elements of a top-tier arc but shitting pacing and just falling back on old tropes.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
One of these days they just have to reboot it, like Araki did.
Jojo could reboot because it already had set up changing protagonists and resetting or ignoring power levels. No way Dragonball could just dump Goku and all the cast, or restarting Goku's journey from zero. Even something like Jojo part 3 (applying big nerfs to Goku's abilities to push some new hero like how Hamon was nerfed there to push Stands) probably would get a huge backlash.